Exhibition Insurance

[russianlayout]

Just got the quote for an exhibition with £48000 worth of layouts for £132, which for each exhibition I run, we fork out that or more for and it got me thinking.  That actually is very high for the insurance risk and their is little or no competitor quotes.   

 

Example I run high risk business for insurance purposes, a theatre where we have actors who can trip, audiences who can fall over, a full theatre bar with all the hazards of that, lights, lots of things that can go bang if they are not watched and also we do large external outdoor events like Shakespeare in the Park, and our yearly £5 million public liability and employers insurance is £322 per year and it includes theft and all contents.  

 

At model rail shows, any damaged caused by say burst pipes, fire etc which isn't the fault of the layout will be covered by the venue's insurance as would any accident on the public on the premises if it was not directly caused by the layouts or event.   Traders have their own public liability insurance and stock insurance,  Caterers have their public liability insurance or is covered if the caterer in house holds a hygine certificate as part of the public liability standard clause.     So the actual risk to £48000 worth of layouts for insurance purposes is low.

 

My insurance company said if we owned the £48000 worth of layouts, our insurance would cover us for the whole show with no extra premium on what we pay per year and advised us to look around at general trade show insurance which may be cheaper.    

 

Just wondering, their must be people working in insurance here or those that calculate the risks in insurance,  has any claims been made on insurance in the last few years on exhibition policies by exhibitors or exhibition managers, as it does seem a low risk policy.  Surely with little risk on the whole £48000 etc, more like a claim for individual layout, someone in insurance can get their company to look at the risks and set a better premium. 

 

Just putting it out there!

Edited November 21, 2016 by russianlayout

[jamie92208]

We tried to get a different insurance for our club show a few years ago but the one that Magnet run is very specifically tailored to the needs of our hobby.  The main sticking point was that layouts are insured from the time that they leave the garden shed/storage, to the time they get back.   As a layout owner I wouldn't move mine without that in place.  There were a few other more minor points.

 

Jamie

[russianlayout]

But that is the same for my actors, they are insured the moment they go from my theatre to a outside venue somewhere, and they lot more expensive (well some are)  just still wondering if another insurance comp can put a sim package forward for less for exhibitions.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Insurance premiums are not just about risk. They cost money to administer. So there must be a minimum below which it would simply not be worth the insurance companies' time.

[Mr.S.corn78]

HI,

 

As has been mentioned its not just about risk. There are lots of things to be taken in to account as has been mentioned. One for example is the specialist knowledge of the insurance company to know what they are dealing with. I'm guessing you use a specialist company for your Theater? or one that at least understands your industry and knows the risks.

 

Some insurance companies who don't have the knowledge needed won't touch certain items or if they do its for a lot less than its value. I have two layouts and all my model railway stuff and i was told by our household insurance company to get specialist insurance as the most they would pay out for the whole lot was £1000, that wouldn't even start to cover the contents of my tool box let alone 2 layouts and all the other railway stuff.

 

I have had first hand experience with this as a good few years ago now i have a full race spec mountain bike stolen from inside the house that was worth the best part of £4000 and all i got from the insurance was £1000 as it was classed as sporting equipment. If i had gone with one of the insurance companies that dealt with mountain bikes i would have got back the full amount.

 

Also the venue may have small print in the contact of hire. I use to organize an exhibition and one of the conditions of hire was to have insurance that would cover all aspects of the event from the venue to public liability and everything in between.

 

cheers

Simon

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just re-read the OP. Is he sure about that £322 per year figure? I might want to switch to his insurer.

[davefrk]

From what I've heard over the years a premium of £132 for exhibition insurance sounds very good, does it cover public liability for the punter too, if not then it should. What if a member of the public trips over a cable taped down to the floor by the set-up team or the feet of those dreadful crowd barriers at some exhibitions, the venue insurance wouldn't want to know would they.

 

Dave Franks

[Krok182]

has any claims been made on insurance in the last few years on exhibition policies by exhibitors or exhibition managers

 

I don't know whether there were any claims made, but one layout was written-off and another damaged (by the same member of the public!) last year at Warley (2015).

[Erichill16]

I’m trying to help out our MRC treasurer.

He is struggling to get insurance for visiting layouts for our forthcoming exhibition. Our general club insurance will cover the club’s layout whilst away which is fine. On asking for a quote for visiting layouts their response is ‘you can’t insure something that doesn’t belong to you’ . This is obviously incorrect so has anyone else had this response and what have they done. Presumably a stand alone policy has be obtained from someone else.

Thanks 

Robert

[APOLLO]

Try Magnet insurance.

 

https://www.magnetinsurance.co.uk/model-railways.aspx

 

https://www.modelrailwayinsurance.co.uk/default.aspx

 

Brit15

Edited October 4, 2022 by APOLLO

[newbryford]

9 minutes ago, Erichill16 said:

I’m trying to help out our MRC treasurer.

He is struggling to get insurance for visiting layouts for our forthcoming exhibition. Our general club insurance will cover the club’s layout whilst away which is fine. On asking for a quote for visiting layouts their response is ‘you can’t insure something that doesn’t belong to you’ . This is obviously incorrect so has anyone else had this response and what have they done. Presumably a stand alone policy has be obtained from someone else.

Thanks 

Robert

 

Magnet insurance do exhibition policies. The premium is based upon the total value of all the visiting layouts. Traders normally arrange their own insurance.

 

https://www.magnetinsurance.co.uk/model-railways.aspx

 

I think there is a discount if you are a member of the Chiltern Model Railway Association.

 

IRC, it was worth paying the membership for the CMRA as it was less than the discount offered.

 

Edit: typing as Apollo sent his!

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by newbryford

[Sitham Yard]

35 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

Magnet insurance do exhibition policies. The premium is based upon the total value of all the visiting layouts. Traders normally arrange their own insurance.

 

https://www.magnetinsurance.co.uk/model-railways.aspx

 

I think there is a discount if you are a member of the Chiltern Model Railway Association.

 

IRC, it was worth paying the membership for the CMRA as it was less than the discount offered.

 

Edit: typing as Apollo sent his!

 

Don't forget public liability insurance which I think comes with the magnet insurance exhibition policy.

Andrew 

[Erichill16]

49 minutes ago, Sitham Yard said:

Don't forget public liability insurance which I think comes with the magnet insurance exhibition policy.

Andrew 

According to the treasurer that is included, visiting layout insurance is the only thing not covered by our existing policy.

Thanks for everyone’s help so far.

Robert

[Mike Bellamy]

 

The Magnet Insurance covers visiting layouts "in transit" (other vans are available) - and so they are covered from the moment they leave home or clubroom to when they return. We have just had our local village hall exhibition and for contents cover of £40,000 plus all the usual liability insurances, the cost was £114. You can go to their website and enter details to see what the cost would be for your particular circumstances and then pay on-line. 

.

[RedgateModels]

14 minutes ago, Mike Bellamy said:

 

The Magnet Insurance covers visiting layouts "in transit" (other vans are available) - and so they are covered from the moment they leave home or clubroom to when they return. We have just had our local village hall exhibition and for contents cover of £40,000 plus all the usual liability insurances, the cost was £114. You can go to their website and enter details to see what the cost would be for your particular circumstances and then pay on-line. 

.

 

Ours was £125.44 this year, again with Magnet - we did have a nice big layout from the ERS that probably pushed up the cost 😉

[AlanRogers]

18 hours ago, newbryford said:

The premium is based upon the total value of all the visiting layouts.

Exhibition insurance comes usually with Public Liability Insurance as standard, in fact it is the bulk of the included cover. The value of visiting layouts, for which cover is also provided, is merely a means to calculate the premium and there will be a minimum premium, to cover administration costs and discourage underinsuring. It's therefore worthwhile taking as much cover for visiting layouts as you can get within that amount. I think I worked it out to be £60,000 or thereabouts, which isn't as much as it sounds! There is a calculator on the Model Railway Insurance website.

The situation is analagous to motor vehicle insurance premiums for young unmarried males, which bear no relation to the value of the car insured or indeed the skill of the driver at all. This is because risk covered isn't damage to the insured car, as this is almost negligable and easily quantifiable. The real risk is in the unknown and potentially open-ended third party costs for damage to property and injury to persons involved in any incident. It's all based on analysis of historic statistics.

Similarly, exhibition insurance has potentially open-ended third party costs in claims brought for damge to property and injury to persons resulting from incidents occuring at the exhibition. Examples could be scalds from the supply and spillage of hot beverages, trips and falls caused by trailling cables, set-up and take-down damage to layouts in the chaos either end of a show and so on. Unfortunately, in today's increasing litigious society, there is no cost in making a claim against somebody, however frivilous. There is however a cost in defending and dismissing it! Regardless of who caused the incident, it happened at the exhibition, so blame immediately attaches to the organisers and their insurers until it can be deflected!

 

Going back to the premiums, they have to be calculated based on something and that something has to be both tangible and measurable in advance. The liability risk could be based on number of visitors but how are you going to pitch that? Estimate prior and declare after, with a potential surcharge or rebate? Realistically, neither the insured nor the insurer wants that level of administration, and there's no incentive to be truthful. It's therefore safer and simpler to pick something else that is roughly proprotionate and use that. Broadly speaking, the larger the sum insured for layouts, the larger the exhibition is and the higher the number of visitors, so the higher the risk. Deliberately under-insure to save money and the payout on any claim will be proportionately reduced - Only insured half the value? We're only paying half the claim. It's flawed, but it works.

I offer this explanation as a commercial insurance underwriter in a previous life. I left the industry last century when I realised that it is all just legalised racketeering, propagated by the need to pay shareholder profits and fuelled by the disgusting compensation culture that we are increasingly subscribing to - Where there's blame, there's a claim. It's ambulance chasing, and wrong. Rant over, but hopefully there's some insight there.

Edited October 5, 2022 by AlanRogers
Smelling pistakes

[meil]

12 hours ago, Erichill16 said:

 On asking for a quote for visiting layouts their response is ‘you can’t insure something that doesn’t belong to you’ .

Thanks 

Robert

This is correct. What you insure against is damage that is caused to the layout whilst at your exhibition through your negligence or the negligence of someone deemed under your control.

 

We use Magnet and we obtain specific Insurance for each show we do in addition to our general club policy. Each show is unique and the policy covers specific layouts at the show. By the way Traders are on their own and they have to cover their own insurance.

Edited October 5, 2022 by meil

[AlanRogers]

16 minutes ago, meil said:

This is correct. What you insure against is damage that is caused to the layout whilst at your exhibition through your negligence or the negligence of someone deemed under your control.

 

That is both correct and a cop-out. You can insure anything for which you are responsible and responsibility attaches when you have custody or control. The layouts are in the custody or control of the exhibition organisers from when they arrive on site, often extended to when they leave the owner's home, and especially when the hall is closed overnight on a multi-day exhibition.

 

Think back to the tragic events at the Market Deeping Model Railway Exhibition in May 2019 - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/19/model-railway-lovers-devastated-vandals-lincolnshire - where the damage occurred between setting-up Friday and opening Saturday morning.

Edited October 5, 2022 by AlanRogers

[37114]

Interestingly I have received the final detail confirmations for a show next month and on the letter the organisers have said they are no longer insuring the visiting layouts as it is too expensive to do so and exhibitors should get their own cover. As it is a local small 1 day show then the risk is low and I will take the risk this time but after Market Deeping I would consider pulling out if it was a long distance 2 day show or at least providing an expenses claim to the organiser for the insurance.

[2E Sub Shed]

7 minutes ago, 37114 said:

on the letter the organisers have said they are no longer insuring the visiting layouts as it is too expensive to do so and exhibitors should get their own cover. 

 

Might be worth clarifying what they are insuring and what liability attaches to yourself in this situation. As noted earlier, if they are in "custody and control" of the exhibition organisers, then what responsibility are they accepting and what risks are they expecting to cover? 

 

Having seen a mobility scooter driven into a layout at a show, whose problem, show organisers for insufficient barriers, or you for not providing suitable barriers, or the scooter user, or show organiser for allowing it access? - Which insurer will pay for damage? (Nothing against users of these scooters, just a real-life situation).

[Gilbert]

1 hour ago, 37114 said:

Interestingly I have received the final detail confirmations for a show next month and on the letter the organisers have said they are no longer insuring the visiting layouts as it is too expensive to do so and exhibitors should get their own cover. As it is a local small 1 day show then the risk is low and I will take the risk this time but after Market Deeping I would consider pulling out if it was a long distance 2 day show or at least providing an expenses claim to the organiser for the insurance.

I completely agree - a one day show where you are pretty much with the layout 100% of the time is rather different from an overnighter where you leave everything behind....however I'd be interested to know the 1-day exhibition's view on public liability if the issue is down to an uninsured layout...

Chris

Edited October 5, 2022 by Gilbert

[RedgateModels]

6 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

.however I'd be interested to know the 1-day exhibition's view on public liability if the issue is down to an uninsured layout...

Chris

 

it may be the venue has public liability insurance already. Still thin end of the wedge IMHO, for the 100 odd quid we will always insure layouts at the Mansfield Show. It's the right thing to do.

[2E Sub Shed]

4 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

 

it may be the venue has public liability insurance already. Still thin end of the wedge IMHO, for the 100 odd quid we will always insure layouts at the Mansfield Show. It's the right thing to do.

Having constructed and used hall hire agreements in the past, one of the provisions always entered into such an agreement is that the hirer holds adequate insurance for their activities. 

 

You cannot expect the venue and their insurers to accept liability for something they have not provided and has been brought onto the premises, or the mis-use of provided equipment either of which has caused injury. Equally they and their insurers cannot be liable for the actions of someone the hirer has "invited" onto the premises.

 

One of the best clauses in such agreements was a Church Hal hire agreement which excluded liability for "Acts of God".

[RedgateModels]

I did say "may"

 

pretty certain that the Church Centre Mansfield has PL insurance as rooms are let out to various groups all year. It is self sustaining in this way. As I said it's all a bit moot for us in any case as we always take out separate Magnet insurance for both days of the Mansfield Show 

[TheQ]

it's been an interesting discussion I've seen.

 

For a club run show, I'd expect them to have public liability and if the show is 2 day layout insurance for the unattended layouts overnight. 

 

For me the worry is not the layout itself, insurance that covered it's full rebuild, would mean the layout is no longer mine it would be someone else's build.   Insurance for materials? unless the place burnt down, most of the layout would survive even if someone fell on it..

So the main insurance for me would be loss of movables, locos, carriages wagons etc.. At any show that was overnight I'd remove the removables into their case and take it with me. N and EM gauge that is, larger that would be a problem..

 

I've also been at a big show while it was open when a loco went missing from a fiddle yard... Quite how the thief managed it with the large numbers of people standing around, I don't know.

 

So will I get layout insurance ? I'm not sure still thinking on that one.. Also still working out how to defend the front edges of the layout from fingers large and small.....