Catenary masts

[jimikelly]

hi all, is there a manufacturer apart from Dapol who produce a dummy catenary mast

[Guest 40-something]

hi all, is there a manufacturer apart from Dapol who produce a dummy catenary mast

Peco do some but are very expensive compared to Dapol.  

 

According to a major box shifter...1 Peco mast, £7.95, 10 Dapol masts £8

[charliepetty]

Peco do some but are very expensive compared to Dapol.  

 

According to a major box shifter...1 Peco mast, £7.95, 10 Dapol masts £8

 

BUT the Dapol masts are CR***, probably out of a lucky bag, they are plastic and bendy!!!!   The Peco are German and all metal construction from Sommerfeldt. A quality well made item that looks and feels correct, and you can put wires onto them, how do you do that with the Dapol ones!!!!.  Honestly you cannot really compare.  Charlie

[piranha230]

BUT the Dapol masts are CR***, probably out of a lucky bag, they are plastic and bendy!!!!   The Peco are German and all metal construction from Sommerfeldt. A quality well made item that looks and feels correct, and you can put wires onto them, how do you do that with the Dapol ones!!!!.  Honestly you cannot really compare.  Charlie

Plastic and bendy, bit like the sides of your kits were.

[Clive Mortimore]

BUT the Dapol masts are CR***, probably out of a lucky bag, they are plastic and bendy!!!!   The Peco are German and all metal construction from Sommerfeldt. A quality well made item that looks and feels correct, and you can put wires onto them, how do you do that with the Dapol ones!!!!.  Honestly you cannot really compare.  Charlie

Dapol mast are models of Mk3 equipment.

 

Peco are not models of any know British equipment (but sold as Mk3).

 

Dapol ping back into position when you bang into them.

 

Peco stay put but will try to remove flesh from your arm when you bang into them.

 

Dapol have still to produce their span wires.

 

Peco do supply the span wires but you need to solder the registration arm into place, as well as the wires. 

 

Two systems who's school report would read "Could have tried harder".

[Joseph_Pestell]

Given the immaturity of British OHLE modelling, I think that's quite an unfair judgement. Yes, some individual builders have made exquisite models of British OHLE, but all self build at great cost in time and money (maybe less the money, but time nonetheless!) for specific layouts. Inspiring modelling, but not exactly an example that would lead others to take up the challenge. Dapol and Peco/Sommerfeldt offer each a different approach to British OHLE: Dapol with cheap lookalikes so entry is cheap and easy, Peco/Sommerfeldt for the more serious modeller who wants to spend some time "getting it right for the budget he has". Getting 100% accurate British OHLE in 00 and/or N scale is economically completely non-viable, the market is simply too small. Sommerfeldt has been offering Dutch OHLE for over 25 years now, but even that isn't correct. Compromises on economic grounds are quite defensible in my book. The only alternative is nothing at all

 

In the much smaller French market, JV managed to make a pretty good catenary system (indeed two systems). Of course, electrified railways are more common over there and have been for a long time.

It should not really beyond a UK manufacturer to make a quality system that actually looks like the real thing. But it won't be cheap.

[orford]

I used to use Sommerfeldt with much success in the past - although the layout at the time was Swiss metre gauge, not British. The big advantage was that it could be energised and actually power the (Bemo) locos via their working pantographs.

 

But the point is that there are quite a few components in the Sommerfeldt system, such as insulators, weights, etc., which could be quite useful in a British system.

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Dapol ping back into position when you bang into them.

 

Peco stay put but will try to remove flesh from your arm when you bang into them...

 Anyone who can build a competent working layout, can surely 'plant' suitable lengths of brass or plastic section to represent masts on that layout, as a cheap trial of the consequences.

 

I have the utmost admiration for the likes of Orford's 'full knitting' installation - whether truly accurate or not, the effect is most convincing - but it introduces the need for a very significant discipline into layout operation. Find a cheap way of trying out whether you can live with it. (I know I cannot!)

[Titan]

Peco do some but are very expensive compared to Dapol.  

 

According to a major box shifter...1 Peco mast, £7.95, 10 Dapol masts £8

 

 

In the much smaller French market, JV managed to make a pretty good catenary system (indeed two systems). Of course, electrified railways are more common over there and have been for a long time.

It should not really beyond a UK manufacturer to make a quality system that actually looks like the real thing. But it won't be cheap.

 

I am not sure that people quite realise the implications of an expensive system. My modest 11 foot by 11 foot roundy roundy would require around 80 cantilever masts to electrify it's double track main line alone. At Peco prices that is £636 just for the masts. Add wires, and additional masts for sidings etc and I would not get much change out of a grand.

 

Many people I know have much bigger railways than I do. It could easily cost them £3k to electrify their main lines (not to mention the time taken to install it). Unless the cost of model OLE per foot of track electrified is brought down dramatically to a similar cost per foot to the track itself, it just won't happen on cost grounds.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I am not sure that people quite realise the implications of an expensive system. My modest 11 foot by 11 foot roundy roundy would require around 80 cantilever masts to electrify it's double track main line alone. At Peco prices that is £636 just for the masts. Add wires, and additional masts for sidings etc and I would not get much change out of a grand.

 

Many people I know have much bigger railways than I do. It could easily cost them £3k to electrify their main lines (not to mention the time taken to install it). Unless the cost of model OLE per foot of track electrified is brought down dramatically to a similar cost per foot to the track itself, it just won't happen on cost grounds.

It is certainly a big factor. But in mainland Europe the cost of  catenary is considerable, far more than the track, and it still sells.

[Vecchio]

Small hint - do it yourself. I consider I spent not more than 50£ yet, I suppose it will not be more than 100£ for the complete layout. Of course I have tools not everybody has and you need a lot of time if you want something nice.

And with my homemade stuff I can easily compete with Sommerfeldt.

 

Some of you may have seen that.  And some work is in progress in Donnersbachkogel. This is of course not the British system, but I think I can make the British system as well to the same standards.

 

Vecchio, very self confident today

[Joseph_Pestell]

Small hint - do it yourself. I consider I spent not more than 50£ yet, I suppose it will not be more than 100£ for the complete layout. Of course I have tools not everybody has and you need a lot of time if you want something nice.

And with my homemade stuff I can easily compete with Sommerfeldt.

 

Some of you may have seen that.  And some work is in progress in Donnersbachkogel. This is of course not the British system, but I think I can make the British system as well to the same standards.

 

Vecchio, very self confident today

As you deserve to be. Your catenary is very good.

 

Some UK modellers have done their own, including on some very large layouts.

[letterspider]

There is another alternative. Double head your trains with a diesel hauling your electric locomotive with pan down. It looks good, is prototypical (certainly for freight flows) and at times you can do it cheaply if you can get an unmotored chassis.

There can never be cheap UK OHLE, if so we would have had it by now.

[cravensdmufan]

Dapol have still to produce their span wires.

Dapol wires are available in stock at some stockists e.g.  https://www.modelrailwaysdirect.co.uk/Dapol-OOWIRE3-OO-Catenary-Wires-174mm-X-10/

 

But I've yet to read any reports or reviews of this system.  IMO their masts do look good but not sure about how the wires fix together.  Are they clip together or do they have to be soldered?

 

Hopefully there will be some sort of display at Warley NEC of each companies' products so hopefully can make a decision. Judging by the look of the masts I am veering towards Dapol. .

[Clive Mortimore]

Given the immaturity of British OHLE modelling, I think that's quite an unfair judgement.

No is not.

 

Most modellers would not accept a King class loco with the boiler of a Royal Scot, or a class 45 on a Bo-Bo chassis. That is how accurate the Peco system is. There is only one type of mast, not a pull off or push off that you need to get the correct stagger at the registration point so the contact wire zig-zags along the line. The catenary wire goes above the top arm, it should go under. 

 

The Dapol system is more accurate but lacks any of the specialist mast needed to make it suitable for stations, bridges, tunnels, sidings etc that us modellers like.

 

 

Dapol wires are available in stock at some stockists e.g.  https://www.modelrailwaysdirect.co.uk/Dapol-OOWIRE3-OO-Catenary-Wires-174mm-X-10/

 

But I've yet to read any reports or reviews of this system.  IMO their masts do look good but not sure about how the wires fix together.  Are they clip together or do they have to be soldered?

 

Hopefully there will be some sort of display at Warley NEC of each companies' products so hopefully can make a decision. Judging by the look of the masts I am veering towards Dapol. .

Hi

 

I was unaware they had been introduced. When I was asked earlier in the year to do the review for Model Rail Express, of the Peco mast my local model shop did not have the Dapol wires and to be honest I have not looked for them since then.

[gazzaday]

I really do recommend making your own; see my blog:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1931/entry-18102-the-only-way-is-romford-part-3/

[Clive Mortimore]

Clive, I'm afraid we'd have to agree to disagree on this topic, for now. We'd have to see how things pan out (s'cuse the pun ) in future, but for now I retain my position that British OHLE modelling has not yet reached maturity.

 

In the mean time, happy to get you a tea, if I where in Essex

If some thing is wrong, it is wrong. Why not build it right in the first place? Or do we as British modellers have to put up with wrong nearly right compromises all the time?

[Titan]

Why not build it right in the first place? 

 

1. It would be horrendously expensive - I have already shown how electrifying a reasonably sized main line layout with Peco masts as is could cost thousands. No one other than millionaires would be able to afford it, and even they might not since a millionaire would have a bigger layout to electrify!

2. Any manufacturer would have a high number of returns - anything that realistic is going to be far too fragile for the RTR market. Whilst many would be careful and have success, others would claim 'not fit for purpose' under the sale of goods act, and the fragility/complexity would mean that the manufacturer would have a hard time defending it.

[Clive Mortimore]

1. It would be horrendously expensive - I have already shown how electrifying a reasonably sized main line layout with Peco masts as is could cost thousands. No one other than millionaires would be able to afford it, and even they might not since a millionaire would have a bigger layout to electrify!

2. Any manufacturer would have a high number of returns - anything that realistic is going to be far too fragile for the RTR market. Whilst many would be careful and have success, others would claim 'not fit for purpose' under the sale of goods act, and the fragility/complexity would mean that the manufacturer would have a hard time defending it.

Hi Ian

 

The Peco costing is a problem agreed.

 

As for making it realistic how simple would it have been to make the system height right so that the catenary wire goes under the top arm? How simple would have been to use 2mm H section post not 3mm. How simple would it have been to make push -off and pull off mast?

 

Dapol mast are dimensionally more accurate.

[kevinlms]

Hi Ian

 

The Peco costing is a problem agreed.

 

As for making it realistic how simple would it have been to make the system height right so that the catenary wire goes under the top arm? How simple would have been to use 2mm H section post not 3mm. How simple would it have been to make push -off and pull off mast?

 

Dapol mast are dimensionally more accurate.

But haven't Peco used the Sommerfeldt standard system, with British posts, presumably to keep the costs down for production?

[Clive Mortimore]

But haven't Peco used the Sommerfeldt standard system, with British posts, presumably to keep the costs down for production?

Hi Kevin

 

The span wires are the same as some already in production, hence they give a system height at the mast of 18 mm when it should be 12mm. The use of 3mm H section for the uprights on the mast is a standard size for Sommerfelt. 3mm represents 9 inches, most mk 3 cantilever mast have a 6 inch upright, again 3mm H section is a standard Sommerfelt product.

[Joseph_Pestell]

As to cost, OHE in HO or OO historically costs about 3 times what trackwork costs. The Peco masts seem to be a bit pricier than that.

 

On fragility, so long as the packaging is suitably labelled, no reason why there should be too much of a problem. Even a system as well established as Sommerfeldt is too fragile for most of the ham-fisted types who frequent model railway shops. Many don't even know that they need to clean the wheels on their locos for them to work properly.

 

2mm section would probably be difficult in the soft plastic that Dapol have chosen to use. But no problem to use brass section when the issue becomes finding a robust way of fixing the consoles to the mast.

[ptrabant]

http://009bedsandbucks.webplus.net

 

I used the Dapol one for my simple exhibition layout . I used as austrian and it was simple , the other systems are so expensive and it gave me OLE about my electrics 

[Crewlisle]

 

All you armchair modellers, rivet counters (or should it be ‘insulator counters’), prototypical modellers & regular critics of what the major manufacturers produce, please do not criticise Peco for their effort in producing catenary which the average modeller will welcome with open arms.  It would be completely uneconomic to produce exact scale BR outline OHLE for a relatively small market, so Peco have compromised by using a generic system already in production, ie Sommerfeldt.  All us 00 gauge modellers accept a track gauge of just over 4ft, so either accept what is on offer or make your own!  Is this the turning point in encouraging Bachmann (Fantastic Class 85; looking forward to the Class 90!) & Hornby to produce more AC locos, eg a decent modern Class 86, 87 or APT-P?  My catenary is not prototypical with no tensioning wires nor any of the other bits & pieces the ‘insulator counters’ require, but when viewed from normal viewing distance it looks the part.

 

Having had over 30 years experience of OHLE on my 00 gauge exhibition layout ‘Crewlisle’ & it is always a point of interest & questions at exhibitions. Here are a few points to consider:

1. Use whatever masts you like, but it is best to make your own catenary wires.  I used JV single/double masts (still available) as they looked like BR single masts, modified their continental portal frames to look like early WCML masts but scratchbuilt the actual catenary wire as it is unique to each layout as it depends on the radius of the curves & points.  The loco pantograph is always in contact with the contact wire.  It is all portable & is tested to a scale speed of 100 mph.   I have seen a number of layouts at exhibitions with super detailed scale catenary but only dare run their locos at just over shunting speed!  Why have an APT & not run it at its scale speed?
2. My OHLE scratch built portable catenary wire is made of 0.5mm piano/high tensile steel wire.   I have had my Class 87 snag a wire at a scale 80 mph, bend it back about 60 degrees but it just sprung back to almost its original shape.  The catenary wires are upto 1000mm long and span upto four masts.  They are not tensioned but the tension & strength in the wires is by virtue of the wire material, the permanent 'kink' put into the wires at each mast to supply the stagger on straight track (in addition to 'pull off' & 'push off' masts) & between masts on curved track after making the wires up flat.
3. My catenary & masts are all portable taking about 20 minutes to set up at exhibitions.  Catenary wire is made up to span on average four or five masts over various radius track & points.  
4. The wires are made up flat on a wooden batten then bent to provide a straight line between masts. 
5. Some of you mention the excessive cost of ‘electrifying’ your layout.  On my three interconnected levels layout only the WCML continuous run, relief line & a couple of sidings are electrified.  I have used 8 modified JV portal frames & 3 double arm masts (see top photo).  On the approximate 8ft long mid level visible WCML section of my layout with catenary, the track radius varies from 500mm upto 2000mm through the station with eight points.  At each end there are two tunnels each approximately 600mm long where it crosses three baseboard joints.   
6. I have just completed writing an article for BRM which covers the positioning of masts (JV, Peco, Sommerfeldt or Veismann), manufacture of  catenary wires, transition of catenary into tunnels & catenary across baseboard joints both inside & outside tunnels.  The article will probably appear early next year.  ‘Crewlisle’ will be at Alexandra Palace in March 2017.

 

          Peter

[Clive Mortimore]

 

All you armchair modellers, rivet counters (or should it be ‘insulator counters’), prototypical modellers & regular critics of what the major manufacturers produce, please do not criticise Peco for their effort in producing catenary which the average modeller will welcome with open arms.

Hi Peter

 

A few years ago I was approached by Steve Flint, editor of Railway Modeller, to do an article on OLE for his magazine along with a friend who was going to do the modelling of OLE. Owing to personal reasons it was not written at the time. Now Steve knew I had information that I am willing to share with others, even willing to help any manufacturer to produce a product that is as accurate as possible. So Peco had amongst its staff someone who knew where to obtain the information for free.

 

It might sound that I am bitter, I am not I am just upset that yet again the average modeller has to welcome with open arms something that is not right.