Tri-ang Railways.

[Golden Fleece 30]

There was no supporting documentary evidence to acknowledge it as such though Ray.  "A fool and his money" springs to mind.

 

With it being so easy to do how can anyone tell what is genuine and what is not?

 

Garry

[GoingUnderground]

In May,a an allegedly factory built E3002 was sold on Ebay for £3,110.Even now,no one knows if it`s original such is the scarcity of these loco`s even in 2 rail versions.

 

                       Ray.

If it was truly in mint unused condition, with a box and all paperwork to match, then it may indeed go for that much.

 

The AL1 does appear occasionally at HRCA auctions, and the going price depends on condition. Prices over £300 are not uncommon for good, with original box and paperwork, examples.

[Golden Fleece 30]

I never had that problem with Tensionloks. Personally, I find the modern small Tensionloks most acceptable, especially when in the middle of a rake.

 

The original open bar with "harpoon" hook was always uncoupling on my layout, even now the modern ones are worse still and to me the worst design of coupling going for uncoupling on its own, I use Bachmaan modern bogies under my Exley coaches and they for ever give issues.  These newer ones were based around the Airfix versions.  The old Tri-ang TT with the same version in 00 was the most superior but I prefer fitting Kadee's to my stock but pricey if doing each end of every vehicle.

 

Garry

[sagaguy]

£3,000+ seems a tad OTT for a Dublo model however rare, but then my approach to collecting is to run the things.... I certainly wouldn't pay extra for the late Dublo 3 rail versions. A converted 2 rail one is quite OK. (I try to have at least one of everything Dublo, but without exaggerating. - for example, I can let the AL1 go as 1' It's really Tri-ang, 2. It's expensive (but offered at the right price....) and 3. It's not steam....

 

Just goes to show how some collectors have deep pockets & good luck to them i say,however,my Triang AL1 pictured earlier cost me the grand total of £99.00 inc P + P which is more like it seeing as it seems to be a cross over version  from HD toTriang.My Heljan EM1 cost nearly £200 & i still have to replace the pantographs to pick up from my catenary,i believe DC kits supply Judith Edge replacements.

 

                 Onwards & upwards,Ray.

[sagaguy]

If it was truly in mint unused condition, with a box and all paperwork to match, then it may indeed go for that much.

 

The AL1 does appear occasionally at HRCA auctions, and the going price depends on condition. Prices over £300 are not uncommon for good, with original box and paperwork, examples.

Sorry,i left out the fact that it was supposed to be a factory built 3 rail model.

 

             Fingers faster than brain,cheers,Ray.

[Il Grifone]

Just goes to show how some collectors have deep pockets & good luck to them i say,however,my Triang AL1 pictured earlier cost me the grand total of £99.00 inc P + P which is more like it seeing as it seems to be a cross over version  from HD toTriang.My Heljan EM1 cost nearly £200 & i still have to replace the pantographs to pick up from my catenary,i believe DC kits supply Judith Edge replacements.

 

                 Onwards & upwards,Ray.

 

That's what I meant by "offered at the right price"  

For £200 I would expect the pantographs to work. Other manufacturers managed at a considerably lower price. Danish stuff does tend to be expensive though.... (Carlsberg and Bang & Olufsen come to mind...).*

 

The record price IIRC (it might have been 'bettered' since) was £33,000 for the remains (no loco chassis) of a pre-war Märklin LMS compound. (A rather awful effort IMHO - even worse than the Trix model from the same period. Not surprisingly they sold very few....)

 

*EDIT How did I forget 'Lego'!

Edited July 23, 2017 by Il Grifone

[sagaguy]

I`ve just ordered two pantographs from DC kits so my Heljan EM1 may be running under catenary soon.It`ll have to take its place in the queue but i`m a believer in get the parts while they are still available,i`ve learned in the past that when you want them,you can`t get them.

 

                      Ray.

[Legend]

 

The ladders 'make' the Dublo signals! Their competitors products are all overscale, especially Tri-ang's. (These are still in The Hornby catalogue I believe - well past their 'Sell by' date.)

...

Agreed Hornby Dublo signals do still look the part. If someone could make robust modern equivalents I think there would be a market for them

 

As to the Hornby signals , these actually date from 1978 when a new modular range was introduced. You could build a gantry of any size using junction signals and extension kits. These are not the original Triang signals which to my mind looked much better with individual , junction and gantry signals .

 

I know we have Dapol signals , but there do seem to be issues on reliability. To me a generic basic workable signal based either on those of H-D or early Triang would be very welcome.

[Il Grifone]

Agreed Hornby Dublo signals do still look the part. If someone could make robust modern equivalents I think there would be a market for them

 

As to the Hornby signals , these actually date from 1978 when a new modular range was introduced. You could build a gantry of any size using junction signals and extension kits. These are not the original Triang signals which to my mind looked much better with individual , junction and gantry signals .

 

I know we have Dapol signals , but there do seem to be issues on reliability. To me a generic basic workable signal based either on those of H-D or early Triang would be very welcome.

 

 

You are right, I had forgotten the earlier Tri-ang signals, but I think the arms are the same - they both suffer from generous dimensions. However 1978 was still Tri-ang(-Hornby) and the S.B.D. still applies.

 

Luckily there are still plenty of Dublo signals about, even the electric versions, and only cost a few pounds. 

Their colour lights were less successful thanks to the bulbs sticking out, but LEDs make an effective replacement.

[GoingUnderground]

The original open bar with "harpoon" hook was always uncoupling on my layout, even now the modern ones are worse still and to me the worst design of coupling going for uncoupling on its own, I use Bachmaan modern bogies under my Exley coaches and they for ever give issues. These newer ones were based around the Airfix versions. The old Tri-ang TT with the same version in 00 was the most superior but I prefer fitting Kadee's to my stock but pricey if doing each end of every vehicle.

 

Garry

That's why they were replaced in 1959 with the mk3 Tensionlok.

 

Uncoupling tensionloks by hand is easy. Just create your own shunters pole by unbending a paperclip so it forms the shape of an ice hockey stick and use that to uncouple by lifting the "harpoons". You may have to move the stock closer together to unhook the couplings from eachother, and then move them apart before lowering them again so the hooks don't re-engage.

[GoingUnderground]

You are right, I had forgotten the earlier Tri-ang signals, but I think the arms are the same - they both suffer from generous dimensions. However 1978 was still Tri-ang(-Hornby) and the S.B.D. still applies.

 

Luckily there are still plenty of Dublo signals about, even the electric versions, and only cost a few pounds.

Their colour lights were less successful thanks to the bulbs sticking out, but LEDs make an effective replacement.

I believe that Triang used the later Dublo colour light signal head when they released their version.

 

What LEDs do you use as replacements?

Edited July 19, 2017 by GoingUnderground

[Golden Fleece 30]

 Uncoupling tensionloks by hand is easy. Just create your own shunters pole by unbending a paperclip so it forms the shape of an ice hockey stick and use that to uncouple by lifting the "harpoons". You may have to move the stock closer together to unhook the couplings from eachother, and then move them apart before lowering them again so the hooks don't re-engage.

 

I don't have this issue with Kadees.

 

I believe that Triang used the later Dublo colour light signal head when they released their version.

 

Which signal as I always though the Tri-ang one was large and over scale?  The Dublo one was small and neat in contrast.

 

Garry

[GoingUnderground]

Just goes to show how some collectors have deep pockets & good luck to them i say,however,my Triang AL1 pictured earlier cost me the grand total of £99.00 inc P + P which is more like it seeing as it seems to be a cross over version from HD toTriang.My Heljan EM1 cost nearly £200 & i still have to replace the pantographs to pick up from my catenary,i believe DC kits supply Judith Edge replacements.

 

Onwards & upwards,Ray.

Judith Edge supply Judith Edge pans. You'll find them on UK Modelshops. I converted my Heljan EM1 and ran it under the wires on Nottomgham MRS's Deepcar layout. Deepcar also saw some of my Trix EM1s and Triang EM2s.

 

You may find that the heads on the Judith Edge pans don't run flat but twist so that only one side is touching the catenary. Also if you are using Triang catenary the pans will catch on the clips that join the ends of the catenary wires together. The trick is to taper the ends of the clips so they form a ramp, like a piece of penne pasta, but with the ramps on the same side, not opposite sides like the pasta. The pans on the Trix EM1, Dublo/Triang AL1, and Triang EM2 all had round colldctor heads so that they wouldn't catch on the clip edges, but ride over them. The heads on the pans on my EM2 have some quite deep grooves in them, gouged out by the clips probably.

 

As far as I know, there is no such thing as a crossover version. Triang used the Dublo tooling and modified it to take the Triang changeover switch, the Triang chassis and motor bogie, and made a couple of other cosmetic changes to correct some of the errors in the Dublo tooling. Your model is the full fat early Triang version. I have one myself, slightly modified and playworn from ebay, as well as my own bought from new later single pan version.

 

Any crossover version would have a Dublo chassis and motor and a Triang body with the chsngeover switch slot and markings. Alternatively, it could have the Triang chassis and motor bogie and the Dublo body with the holes for the chamgeover pin and IIRC, the letters A and B on the roof. It's some months since I last dug out my Dublo AL1 and I can't check it at the moment. I will try to post photos of the 3 AL1s, Trix, Dublo, and Triang sometime.

Edited July 19, 2017 by GoingUnderground

[Legend]

I believe that Triang used the later Dublo colour light signal head when they released their version.

What LEDs do you use as replacements?

There was a small one available up to 75. I think the head was also used in the overhead gantry. The gantry was discontinued and the single signal was replaced by a hideously enlarged one in 1976.

 

Although people may consider this Triang, both this and the 1978 signals were released under the Hornby Railways brand ( as I've said before I use Hornby Dublo to distinguish the system available up to 1964) .

[locomad]

I would question the export comment. There is no mention or record of a production run in 3-rail for export. A few reliable experts and the Dublo book by Michael Foster have never said such a thing. It is not to say one or two of the factory specials were never sent abroad but that is all. These are very easy to convert anyway with 4 wheels and a pick-up which are easy to source.

One person did purchase a few spare bodies in the 70's, maybe 80's and made up some replica 3-rail ones. From what I understand he possibly had connections with some old Mecanno staff but certainly had access to a lot of Dublo spares even making a few Black 5's in both 2 and 3-rail mostly from Dublo parts purchased. I don't know what loco body he used whether it was a Tri-ang plastic one or a modified Dublo 8F or possibly a new cast one.

Garry

In mid 70's I accompanied my father to see a local gentleman who had inherited a large collection of model railway stuff, it had come to this attention we seemed to know about meccano products. He explained his uncle who lived I believe either in south Africa or Rhodesia had left him the collection, it was almost a complete collection of recent ( post 1960) 3 rail Hornby dublo, I think only the track cleaning wagon was missing. We had really never seen " export" packing or even screw in coupling, each box had the sticker on. I noticed the E3002 opened it and it was definitely 3 rail, reason was up till then I had never seen one hence my interest. The other locomotive which caught my attention was "City of Liverpool" as I had never seen one in a box before.

 

City of Liverpool was to me an interesting model, wishing to acquire one was differcult as been a 3 rail they just seemed to be rare, however I purchased a body without handrails from hattons early 70's no box, it wasn't till I purchased a very tatty London with handrails from a Chester toyfair early 90's did the Liverpool get it's hand rails.

 

I've come across a few Liverpools one thing I always do is look inside the body, to me quite a few have had handrails and split pins added, another obersevation is to look at the metal of the handrails they I believe the fake ones rust, plus the split pins look different. You could well be right a lot of surplus stuff was sold many years after triang takeover

[Golden Fleece 30]

another obersevation is to look at the metal of the handrails they I believe the fake ones rust, plus the split pins look different.

 

A few originals rust, some quite badly.  Wrenn used nickel silver which obviously doesn't.  On my repaints I always replace with Stainless Steel wire.  The split pins were at times brass that had been nickel plated, sometimes plain Nickel so there can be differences.

 

Regarding Export models this is a difficult one as usually the phrase is "screwed coupling = Export", unfortunately that is not the case with diesels like the Deltic, Co-Co, Co-Bo, EMU, E3001, 08 shunter as all these had screwed coupling whether Export or not.  If boxed then it should have been plain red with a sticker on.  The A4 was never made as an Export model due to its tender coupling but all others most likely were, but, it is very easy to fake these and a few have been on Ebay.  It is easy to remove the rivet, tap the hole and buy a replica screw.  When you were looking I doubt anyone would have dreamt of faking them.  One uncommon item is that the very early Liverpools were actually supplied with old Duchess 3-rail bogies as opposed to the standard plastic 2-rail ones.

 

Garry

[GoingUnderground]

I don't have this issue with Kadees.

 

Which signal as I always though the Tri-ang one was large and over scale? The Dublo one was small and neat in contrast.

 

Garry

The RT.405 which was new in the 1962 catalogue, and as such was well before the acquisition of Meccano. The RT designation showed that it was also intended for use with the Triang TT range. It seemed a bit on the small side, but that was probably due to the height of the post being a compromise height for TT.

 

 

The same head was also used on the R.573 double track gantry signal, which was new in 1965. The gantry was the same as the R.580 OPSS double track gantry. Both signals last appeared in the 1971 catalogue as R.405M and R.573M, the M suffix apparently indicating that they were only suitable for System 6 track. The single signal did reappear in the Hornby Railways era as R.405, (EDIT, SORRY, it was R.406), but with a different head.

 

I hadn't realised that the 2 aspect colour light signal predated the acquisition of Meccano. I thought it originated with Dublo as there was a picture of a Dublo colour light signal in a back issue of the HRCA magazine (Edit: June/July 2012, No. 474, pages 8 & 9), where the head looks identical, but the mast and base are different. (Edit, the Dublo number was 5045 for Home, and 5046 for Distant. The Triang RT/R405 was only available as a Home signal.).

Edited July 20, 2017 by GoingUnderground

[locomad]

A few originals rust, some quite badly.  Wrenn used nickel silver which obviously doesn't.  On my repaints I always replace with Stainless Steel wire.  The split pins were at times brass that had been nickel plated, sometimes plain Nickel so there can be differences.

 

Regarding Export models this is a difficult one as usually the phrase is "screwed coupling = Export", unfortunately that is not the case with diesels like the Deltic, Co-Co, Co-Bo, EMU, E3001, 08 shunter as all these had screwed coupling whether Export or not.  If boxed then it should have been plain red with a sticker on.  The A4 was never made as an Export model due to its tender coupling but all others most likely were, but, it is very easy to fake these and a few have been on Ebay.  It is easy to remove the rivet, tap the hole and buy a replica screw.  When you were looking I doubt anyone would have dreamt of faking them.  One uncommon item is that the very early Liverpools were actually supplied with old Duchess 3-rail bogies as opposed to the standard plastic 2-rail ones.

 

Garry

Interesting the hand rails rusting and the split pins, some rust others don't, I've even seen aluminium ones used recently reckon they came from Aldi multi pack.

 

Some of the collection ended up on a local school model railway club, the track certainly did as at the time it was considered almost valueless, the super detailed coaches were put to one side as the school had quite a collection of bashed about early 3 rail stock, the school children at the time thought the metal wheels ran better, something we discovered later, as for the E3002 it was considered since there was no over head wires, unrealistic, so left in box.

 

In early 80's I came across a Sunday school model railway club based in a local church, again it was 3 rail, very unfashionable at the time, collections often donated, I came across 2 e3001's owned by a local man, I never bothered to ask him where they converted or orginial. There was quite a collection of wagons and coaches donated or just simply left as kids grow older, as church attendance declined it just closed down, now the whole site is new housing

[RJS1977]

Agreed Hornby Dublo signals do still look the part. If someone could make robust modern equivalents I think there would be a market for them

 

As to the Hornby signals , these actually date from 1978 when a new modular range was introduced. You could build a gantry of any size using junction signals and extension kits. These are not the original Triang signals which to my mind looked much better with individual , junction and gantry signals .

 

I know we have Dapol signals , but there do seem to be issues on reliability. To me a generic basic workable signal based either on those of H-D or early Triang would be very welcome.

 

I prefer the 'Crescent' signals myself. Yes, possibly slightly overscale (though nowhere near as much as the current Hornby ones!), but easy to motorise (solder a length of brass wire with a weight on one end to the rod linking the arm to the balance weight, and they can be pushed up under the baseboard by a relay, a servo, or even a finger! If the brass weight is heavy enough, they return to 'danger' when pressure is removed (i.e. 'fail safe') unlike the HD & Triang offerings.

[locomad]

I prefer the 'Crescent' signals myself. Yes, possibly slightly overscale (though nowhere near as much as the current Hornby ones!), but easy to motorise (solder a length of brass wire with a weight on one end to the rod linking the arm to the balance weight, and they can be pushed up under the baseboard by a relay, a servo, or even a finger! If the brass weight is heavy enough, they return to 'danger' when pressure is removed (i.e. 'fail safe') unlike the HD & Triang offerings.

Have a look at Scale model signals by SME there's a thread somewhere in this collectable section, same idea but I consider the quality to be better, wish I had some more easy to fit and look brilliant, far ahead of there time.

[Il Grifone]

I believe that Triang used the later Dublo colour light signal head when they released their version.

 

What LEDs do you use as replacements?

 

They are just standard 3mm red, amber/yellow and green. Working in the service industry, mine were salvaged from dead domestic electronics and selected for the best colour. Greens in particular tend to vary in shade. These would have been a generic LED of the type that costs very little from China. IIRC I needed to shorten them slightly to fit neatly and a drop of solvent would restore transparency to the 'lens'. I illuminated two Airfix/Dapol gantries with them as well, but the one I have to hand has stopped working and is awaiting attention. A 1kΩ resistor is required in series. A small one (⅛w) can be hidden in the base of the signal. I used to wire them between 12V and 0V  so them they defaulted to 'red' and voltage applied to the third terminal would switch them to 'green' using a transistor hidden in the base. Unfortunately I can't remember the small, flat transistor I used and I haven't got one to hand. I will try and draw out the circuit and post it later on.

 

The modern 'Hi-Bri' type might be better (brighter), but do not look directly at these as they can cause eye damage (I find them intensely irritating plastered all over the back of cars as they are these days (and the front too, thanks to the EU)).

 

 

The Crescent signals paint up nicely if you are not concerned about originality The arm (and the ladder - often missing it's quite delicate) is a tad oversize.but is usually aluminium and amenable to filing down. Zinc pest is an ever present danger however.

 

To stray even farther from Tri-ang, I'm quite keen on the Trix signals which actually illuminate. I've several illuminated semaphores which lack the latching mechanism. These are operated by a pulse switch (one Trix black impulse switch economically operates two signals) first pulse 'on', second pulse 'off'. I keep meaning to build some mechanisms, but flicking the arm works just as well....  The Trix colour light is the single head type where the light changes colour. Originally illuminated by bulbs in the base with red and green or yellow and green sleeves as appropriate and a clear plastic rod up the mast (early fibre optics - their lighted goods brake van lights the tail lamp the same way). LEDs can provide replacements here too.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Il Grifone

[Il Grifone]

A few originals rust, some quite badly.  Wrenn used nickel silver which obviously doesn't.  On my repaints I always replace with Stainless Steel wire.  The split pins were at times brass that had been nickel plated, sometimes plain Nickel so there can be differences.

 

Regarding Export models this is a difficult one as usually the phrase is "screwed coupling = Export", unfortunately that is not the case with diesels like the Deltic, Co-Co, Co-Bo, EMU, E3001, 08 shunter as all these had screwed coupling whether Export or not.  If boxed then it should have been plain red with a sticker on.  The A4 was never made as an Export model due to its tender coupling but all others most likely were, but, it is very easy to fake these and a few have been on Ebay.  It is easy to remove the rivet, tap the hole and buy a replica screw.  When you were looking I doubt anyone would have dreamt of faking them.  One uncommon item is that the very early Liverpools were actually supplied with old Duchess 3-rail bogies as opposed to the standard plastic 2-rail ones.

 

Garry

 

Hi Garry,

 

These export versions are yet more 'collector' nonsense. As you say, it's easy enough to fake the screw coupling and even the export sticker come to that. Personally I would only pay pence extra for the convenience of the screw. 

 

Just my opinion of course....

 

Wrenn had genuine handrails on sale recently IIRC, but they are just wire and cotter pins so not really a big deal (and overscale anyway - Dublo knew their client base!

 

David

Edited July 20, 2017 by Il Grifone

[sagaguy]

I bought five of the Trix colour light signals with switches a couple of years ago.They are very good models but the colored sleeves can age over time.I replaced the bulbs with red & green LES bulbs but they are getting reasonably difficult to source now,i should imagine that LEDs would now be the way to go.I also have some of the lighted semaphore signals,one of which i bought in the early 1960s from Trix in Gt.Portland St when they were having a closing down sale,i think it was 1/6d.in old money.Lots of goodies,very little money at the time!.

 

                     Ray.

[GoingUnderground]

I always thought that the Triang RT.405 colour light signal looked so much neater than the Dublo and Trix versions. The wires slid into slots in the base, whereas the Dublo and early Trix ones had highly visible, and rather ugly, screw terminals on top of the base. The later Trix signals had similar push fit connections to Triang. The Trix colour light signals were models of  searchlight type signals, and the bulb and filters were, I believe, in the very bulky base. 

 

Triang was the only company to market colour light signals on a gantry. Dublo did have a colour light Junction signal, and as I said, Trix had searchlight style lights. So between the 3 companies, we had a lot of choice.

[Il Grifone]

Put 14 mm wheels in them and a Meccano washer between the bogies and body. That makes a huge difference.

 

It helps it's true, but the problem really is that they are all round too small. I can't really speak for the plastic Trix coaches, but the tinplate 'scale length' coaches (still 1:80*) certainly look undersized against a 00 model. The Trix range is very inconsistent with scale, but since the scale is mentioned at various points in their own literature as 1:90, H0 and 00 none of which are accurate there is little hope. In one year book a mile is quoted as 60' 6" in Trix scale. This works out at about 1:87 and is clearly incorrect.

 

* approximately 

 

I think the problem is that all three manufacturers were too slow to keep up with the times. Dublo were late to switch to plastic (perhaps they had seen what happened to Farish and Tri-ang products (and their own coach windows) and avoided the acetate syndrome (Trix didn't - their late sixties plastic products all show signs of warping.) Corgi hit Dinky sales (windows! the 'push and go' mech. didn't lase long) and Tri-ang's wider range (this attracted me) and lower prices hit both Dublo and Trix. Trix tried to revamp their range but made the error of choosing the wrong scale, which finished them off in the long run. Tri-ang's TT was a complete waste of time and money (Sorry - my opinion - I'm talking economics here not criticising the product itself) and then we had slot racing.... This hit the hobby hard and was probably the last nail in Hornby's coffin. Lego* hit Meccano too (I would argue with it's award as toy of the century. That belongs to Meccano IMHO - Incidently was it Meccano to kill Airfix? It's still manufactured in France _ the last imperial French product?)

 

* Encourages laziness - just push it together rather than bolt it properly!