Tri-ang Railways.

[GoingUnderground]

I can't help thinking that we've gone a bit OT in discussing the merits of Dublo over Triang, and vice versa, a battle that I'm always willing to join on the side of Triang as you may have noticed.

 

Lines Bros are often criticised for not keeping the Dublo range going. But Richard Lines was an admirer of Hornby and had Hornby O gauge. You don't become successful by belittling and despising the competition.

 

Much of the Dublo rolling stock did reappear (and production resumed once the large HD stocks had been liquidated via the boxshifters). as Triang Wrenn after Rovex agreed to pass over the HD moulds to Wrenn. Wrenn gave users the option of using the HD/Peco coupling or Triang Tensionloks. In theory that gave every ex-HD wagon the possibility of being a converter wagon, not just the 5 plank wagon and Horse Box that Triang marketed from 1965. They even appeared, under the Triang Wrenn label, in the main Triang Hornby catalogues until Wrenn became an independent company again after Lines Bros went under. Wrenn was a small scale operation, so it was unlikely that they would ever be a serous threat to Triang Rovex's sales.

[Golden Fleece 30]

Don't forget there was some "sharing" as such with Tri-ang using Wrenns (Dublo) 8F/City tender bases for their undersized streamlined Coronations and Wrenn using Tri-ang's A4 tender as they did not want to get involved with the tinplate side of Dublo.

 

Garry

[Il Grifone]

IMHO the most important thing IMHO absorbed by the Tri-ang range was the Dublo wheel and track standards.  While still coarse they were a lot better than Tri-ang's. Unfortunately they adopted H0 sleepers to go with it.

[sagaguy]

More variety to my HD 3 rail layout.I purchased this today,should be with me Friday.loco.It`s missing a X606 pantograph switch.Although it will be running under catenary ,it would be nice if i could get a replacement switch.I believe it may be the HD 2 pantograph body but in plastic with Triang chassis.

 

 

                      

 

 

                                      Ray.

 

[2mmMark]

I believe Triang had the superior publicity department, the annual catalogues were always bright and encouraging, and getting Terence Cuneo cover painting was a masterstroke.

 

The pictures of layouts in the catalogue always fired the imagination, even if they might not have been the most practical or even complete beyond the frame of the photo.

 

Integrating Minic Motorway and Triang Railways was very exciting too.

 

While I'm now very much in the finescale camp, the idea of a loft full of Triang & Minic appeals but is unlikely ever to happen. I content myself with a small collection of Lone Star OOO.  The push-along range were half-scale replicas of items from the current Triang & Hornby-Dublo ranges.

 

Mark

Edited July 18, 2017 by 2mmMark

[Golden Fleece 30]

.I believe it may be the HD 2 pantograph body but in plastic with Triang chassis.

 

Ray, it was the HD body (which was Plastic to start with not just Tri-ang's) but the switch part was modified.  Dublo had a lot neater arrangement of a metal insulator looking pin that went into one of two holes depending on the pick-up source.  Tri-ang modified it to the ungainly slot and switch.  I think they modified the buffers too as Dublo used the last design of R1 buffers in red plastic.  On my Dublo ones I replaced them with R1 nickel buffers.  Tri-ang kept Dublo's pantographs but soon changed from 2 to 1 which happened in real life.  They used their own chassis with knurled wheels but at least they did not have tyres on.  Here is a Trix one with a Dublo version (minus the plug changeover switch) for comparison, and although to a smaller scale the Trix one looked right especially with the bogie wheel spacing being longer.  The Trix version also had the neater looking plug change over method.

 

Garry

Edited July 18, 2017 by Golden Fleece 30

[John Isherwood]

 

More variety to my HD 3 rail layout.I purchased this today,should be with me Friday.loco.It`s missing a X606 pantograph switch.Although it will be running under catenary ,it would be nice if i could get a replacement switch.I believe it may be the HD 2 pantograph body but in plastic with Triang chassis.

 

 

                       E3001.jpg

 

 

                                      Ray.

 

 

Surely the original Hornby Dublo AL1 had a plastic body?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Golden Fleece 30]

Surely the original Hornby Dublo AL1 had a plastic body?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

It did John.

 

Garry

[sagaguy]

See!,these are pretty rare,i didn`t know that they were plastic on the Hornby Dublo model.If i want a switch,i can make one,the only place i`ve seen them available is in Australia!!!.

 

                          Ray.

[GoingUnderground]

Ray, it was the HD body (which was Plastic to start with not just Tri-ang's) but the switch part was modified. Dublo had a lot neater arrangement of a metal insulator looking pin that went into one of two holes depending on the pick-up source. Tri-ang modified it to the ungainly slot and switch. I think they modified the buffers too as Dublo used the last design of R1 buffers in red plastic. On my Dublo ones I replaced them with R1 nickel buffers. Tri-ang kept Dublo's pantographs but soon changed from 2 to 1 which happened in real life. They used their own chassis with knurled wheels but at least they did not have tyres on. Here is a Trix one with a Dublo version (minus the plug changeover switch) for comparison, and although to a smaller scale the Trix one looked right especially with the bogie wheel spacing being longer. The Trix version also had the neater looking plug change over method.

 

Garry

The Trix AL1 was a 4mm OO gauge model as it was originally designed by Ernst Rosza for his compamy Miniature Construction Ltd, Liliput in Austria did much of the production, with final assembly by MCL in the UK It went on sale as an MCL product in late 1960. MCL sold the rights to Trix in 1962. That's why it doesn't look undersized, because it's not. Trix also removed a pan when the Class 81s lost their 6.25kV pans. So it was, arguably by proxy, the first Bachmann model in the UK. The Trix changeover plug was first used on their EM1/Class 76 in 1959. During its life there was even a twin motor version produced.

 

Tbe Dublo AL1 never had a diecast metal body, it was always plastic, and as such probably pointed the way that HD would have gone with future models. Hornby had already made the changeover to plastic bodies with their wagons and both their R1 and Class 20 had polystyrene body shells.

 

The Triang AL1 used the modified HD tool for the bodyshell, and retained the HD pantographs, which appear to have been designed to run under Triang, and the very similar Trix, catenary as HD publicity shows it under Triang catenary. The changeover switch was from the Triang steeplecab, Trancsontinental Series double ended Bo-Bo, and Sydney Suburban EMU. It was surprising that it was used undisguised, when they'd hidden it in the Sydney Suburbans, and come up with the sliding ventilator on the EM2. Triang had shown an AC electric in their catalogue before the acquisition of HD, but it had still to go on sale. Combining the HD body and their motor bogie must have been a no-brainer.

Edited July 18, 2017 by GoingUnderground

[andyman7]

Triang originally intended to issue an AL2, and an illustration appears in the 1964 Triang catalogue. However the acquisition of the Dublo AL1 tools meant that was adopted instead. That's why the re-issued Traing version has AL2 pattern bogies.

 

It should be remembered that the Hornby-Dublo 2245 E3002 AL1 model actually appeared under Triang ownership - in the summer of 1964 after Triang had acquired the share capital of Meccano Ltd. But it was before the 'merger' of the ranges announced in 1965. Hence why the Dublo version is so rare - one batch only, never made again in original form. 

 

BTW in reference to the Trix AL1, this really knocks spots off either Triang or HD - it is a sensationally good model for it's time and holds up well today.

Edited July 18, 2017 by andyman7

[sagaguy]

Triang originally intended to issue an AL2, and an illustration appears in the 1964 Triang catalogue. However the acquisition of the Dublo AL1 tools meant that was adopted instead. That's why the re-issued Traing version has AL2 pattern bogies.

 

It should be remembered that the Hornby-Dublo 2245 E3002 AL1 model actually appeared under Triang ownership - in the summer of 1964 after Triang had acquired the share capital of Meccano Ltd. But it was before the 'merger' of the ranges announced in 1965. Hence why the Dublo version is so rare - one batch only, never made again in original form. 

 

BTW in reference to the Trix AL1, this really knocks spots off either Triang or HD - it is a sensationally good model for it's time and holds up well today.

Trix Cl.81s are not that easy to obtain,they do command a high price even for 2 rail versions.I really wanted a 3 rail model but the only one i`ve seen recently was £175 + P & P for a footplateman kit in new condition,i thought about it but my wife thought i`d be mad to pay that.It would probably be sacrilige to even take it out of the box.However,i shall keep looking.

 

                             Ray.

[Golden Fleece 30]

Don't forget the Dublo 08 shunter was also plastic as were the starter set locos before E3002 came out. I believe the number E3002 was used to denote a 2-rail model with E3003 proposed for a 3-rail one which never actually appeared. The factory are suppose to have converted a handful for certain people but supplied in a 2-rail box.

 

My Trix model is the genuine twin motored version. At one time Trix provided small diecast BR emblems on the loco as in real life.

 

Garry

[locomad]

Don't forget the Dublo 08 shunter was also plastic as were the starter set locos before E3002 came out. I believe the number E3002 was used to denote a 2-rail model with E3003 proposed for a 3-rail one which never actually appeared. The factory are suppose to have converted a handful for certain people but supplied in a 2-rail box.

My Trix model is the genuine twin motored version. At one time Trix provided small diecast BR emblems on the loco as in real life.

Garry

The body of the starter set was latter as a dinky push a long loco but in die cast metal, these are much more common, easy to repaint and stick a 0-4-0 chassis.

 

In the 1970's I came across a 3 rail collection containing one of these 3 rail E3002 they did exist for export

[St Enodoc]

Trix Cl.81s are not that easy to obtain,they do command a high price even for 2 rail versions.I really wanted a 3 rail model but the only one i`ve seen recently was £175 + P & P for a footplateman kit in new condition,i thought about it but my wife thought i`d be mad to pay that.It would probably be sacrilige to even take it out of the box.However,i shall keep looking.

 

                             Ray.

In the 1980s I bought a bare white plastic Trix body complete with glazing from, I think, the old Dapol organisation who were selling them off. It's still waiting to be finished and motorised, the club layout that it was intended to run on having been and gone in the meantime.

[Golden Fleece 30]

The body of the starter set was latter as a dinky push a long loco but in die cast metal, these are much more common, easy to repaint and stick a 0-4-0 chassis.

 

In the 1970's I came across a 3 rail collection containing one of these 3 rail E3002 they did exist for export

I would question the export comment. There is no mention or record of a production run in 3-rail for export. A few reliable experts and the Dublo book by Michael Foster have never said such a thing. It is not to say one or two of the factory specials were never sent abroad but that is all. These are very easy to convert anyway with 4 wheels and a pick-up which are easy to source.

 

One person did purchase a few spare bodies in the 70's, maybe 80's and made up some replica 3-rail ones. From what I understand he possibly had connections with some old Mecanno staff but certainly had access to a lot of Dublo spares even making a few Black 5's in both 2 and 3-rail mostly from Dublo parts purchased. I don't know what loco body he used whether it was a Tri-ang plastic one or a modified Dublo 8F or possibly a new cast one.

 

Garry

Edited July 19, 2017 by Golden Fleece 30

[Golden Fleece 30]

In the 1980s I bought a bare white plastic Trix body complete with glazing from, I think, the old Dapol organisation who were selling them off. It's still waiting to be finished and motorised, the club layout that it was intended to run on having been and gone in the meantime.

Are you sure it was a Trix body? Dapol did sell a lot of old Dublo E3002 shells off but I cannot remember if glazing was included, it may have been. A few of these have been built using the Dublo Bo-Bo chassis which used similar bogie side frames although the bogies themselves were completely different. The side frames differed with the Bo-Bo ones being metal and screwed like the initial Deltic ones but the E3002 had plastic clip on like the later Deltic and EMU.

 

Garry

[St Enodoc]

Are you sure it was a Trix body? Dapol did sell a lot of old Dublo E3002 shells off but I cannot remember if glazing was included, it may have been. A few of these have been built using the Dublo Bo-Bo chassis which used similar bogie side frames although the bogies themselves were completely different. The side frames differed with the Bo-Bo ones being metal and screwed like the initial Deltic ones but the E3002 had plastic clip on like the later Deltic and EMU.

 

Garry

I remember clearly that it was marketed as Trix/Liliput.

[Golden Fleece 30]

I guess the white plastic would be a give away as I know the Trix versions were moulded in white (I did try to repaint one in the late 60's early 70's). The Dublo one I think was moulded in blue but these could have been done a different colour later.

Garry

Edited July 19, 2017 by Golden Fleece 30

[John Isherwood]

I remember clearly that it was marketed as Trix/Liliput.

 

I too had a couple of Trix / Liliput white AL1 bodies with glazing from Dapol, along with A4 and A2 bodies in black plastic - the latter two were, if course, 3.8mm. / 1ft. scale.

 

These items were advertised in the model press - RM I would guess.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[dcordingley]

Coming a bit late to this thread, and whilst not wanting to re-ignite the Hornby Dublo vs Triang debate I think that, looking back, it's interesting to speculate how different parties became adherents of each brand. There were certainly undertones of socio-economic class involved (very 1950s!), and bridging the brand divide wasn't easy - 2 rail/3 rail and couplings militated against integrating the two systems.

 

On a slightly different but related note, I think it is very interesting that - almost half a century after Hornby Dublo and Triang disappeared from the scene - one or two HD production items have still not been matched (let alone surpassed) in terms of quality. I run a sizeable HD set-up, which is both reliable and lots of fun, but I also have a 4mm scale "proper" model railway. On the latter I use modified HD electric semaphore signals, which are near scale and very robust. I operate them using HD passing contact (red) and 2-way (green) switches, which have proved so much more reliable than the flimsy Eckon switches I tried initially. A few images to show the results...        

[GoingUnderground]

The Triang AL1 retains one unique distinguishing feature that confirms the bodyshell started out as the Dublo model.

The instructions for the Dublo model used the letters A, B, and C when describing how to use the changover switch, and which side of the loco was the "common return" when working "under the wires". A large, and once you know it is there, quite conspicuous, letter "C" was moulded in to the equipment housing to show the common, i.e. uninsulated wheelset. That letter C is present on all Triang versions of the AL1 even though it is unnecessary on the Triang model and isn't mentioned in the OPSS (Overhead Power Supply System) instructions that came with the loco. From the launch of the OPSS in 1959, Triang used their own convention of including a small letter "I" for "insulated" and a small letter "R" for return, non-insulated, on the motor bogie. The motor bogie on their R.753 AL1 has the "I" and "R".

 

As regards the 3 rail version of the Dublo AL1, Michael Foster does say that the 3 rail AL1 was to have the running number 3003, "...was never put into production, but indeed a 3-rail version was supplied to special order, primarily for export markets.", implying that genuine examples may exist, but in "hen's teeth" quantities. IIRC, there was a picture of one in the Hornby Railway Collectors Association magazine, owned by ardent Hornby enthusiast and collector, Bob Field, who, IIRC, is regarded as the authority on the Dublo AL1 model. Replica 3 rail AL1s  do exist, with replica boxes, according to the HRCA.

 

Again, according to Michael Foster, the Dublo 2 rail AL1 had the running number 3002, not because it was the 2 rail version, but to distinguish it from the pre-existing Trix version which had the running number 3001.

Edited July 19, 2017 by GoingUnderground

[sagaguy]

In May,a an allegedly factory built E3002 was sold on Ebay for £3,110.Even now,no one knows if it`s original such is the scarcity of these loco`s even in 2 rail versions.

 

                       Ray.

[Il Grifone]

The 'collectable' value of kits is in their originality i.e. unassembled with all the bits still on the sprue (if applicable) and preferably with the box still in its cellophane wrapper. A Tri-ang 'CKD' or Trix 'Footplateman?' is best left well alone - the parts are worth more than the whole.

 

The same applies to vinyl records, though I can't remember ever seeing one offered for sale in a wrapper*. The 'book' price refers to this. A typical charity shop example with taty/torn sleeve sctaches grooves filled with dust and chewed up by a BSR autochanger (or one of those horrors they sell today to copy them to digital) will be near worthles

 

* In the UK -some clearance lines in Italy were on sale in wrappers in Italy during the last decades of last century. (O. T. Sorry! - I'm already guilty of the friendly banter Tri-ang versus Dublo - I like them all - It's important that it's a train.)

 

The ladders 'make' the Dublo signals! Their competitors products are all overscale, especially Tri-ang's. (These are still in The Hornby catalogue I believe - well past their 'Sell by' date.)

It's not exclusively a U.K. thing. Rivarossi made some rather nice Italian signals, but I gather they are 1:64! and I have a German one (Märklin IIRC) which also appears generously dimensioned.

 

£3,000+ seems a tad OTT for a Dublo model however rare, but then my approach to collecting is to run the things.... I certainly wouldn't pay extra for the late Dublo 3 rail versions. A converted 2 rail one is quite OK. (I try to have at least one of everything Dublo, but without exaggerating. - for example, I can let the AL1 go as 1' It's really Tri-ang, 2. It's expensive (but offered at the right price....) and 3. It's not steam....

[GoingUnderground]

Whilst there may have been a "class/affluence" element for some in their choice, I think the rise of Triang probably owed much to marketing and availability, perceived realism, and of course, price.

 

As I said earlier, I had Hornby O gauge tinplate, but it looked very toy like, and that probably prompted that view in me about Dublo. My cousin, who was a little older than me had Dublo, but when, as a schoolboy, my parents gave in to my pestering and took me down to the local toy shop to get my first OO trainset, it was a Triang catalogue that I had, and it was Triang that I chose. The toy shop did stock Dublo, but I can't remember if they had Dublo trainsets, or if I even considered Dublo, but I knew it from my cousin's set. I don't think price was an issue, and in my case it certainly wasn't a class or affluence issue. The Triang stuff just looked so much better than Dublo, where their tinplate carriages, with their solid windows, and wagons reminded me of their toy like O gauge equivalents. The Triang polystyrene coaches and wagons looked so much more realistic.

 

So many people bemoan the Tensionlok coupling, ("Volvo bumpers with harpoons" as some call them), but it was designed to keep rolling stock coupled on loose lay layouts on floors, which were not always baseboard flat. My cousin's Dublo was on a baseboard, but even then the coaches or wagons would occasionally uncouple when on the move. I never had that problem with Tensionloks. Personally, I find the modern small Tensionloks most acceptable, especially when in the middle of a rake.