MarcD Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 I'm looking for some infomation on private owner wagons used in Cornwall between 1900 and 1930. There are a few photos of privately owned china clay wagons but I haven't seen any other private owner wagons. does anyone have ant details? MArc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbishop Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 Most coal was transported by coaster, so not much by rail and probably transported by factors to inland towns. The only one that comes immediately to mind is Renwick, Wilton (& Dobson). Renwick and Wilton started the firm, Dobson joined later. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted August 26, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 26, 2016 I'm sure that there were private owner wagons for the Helston Gas Works. Don't know about the time scales for these. It might be worth having a look at old pictures of Portreath harbour (not the tramway) as this saw masses of coal coming in as a balancing load, you might well see private owner wagons in pictures. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted August 26, 2016 Author Share Posted August 26, 2016 I have seen Helston Gas and a sketch of one for Rowe of Camborne but other than that the closest wagons I have found is Gunn of Oakhampton and a square tank from Plymouth. Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 I didn't find any Cornish PO's when I did a search a few years ago (apart from China Clay), and a very old man told me he didn't think any of the locals would have had their own wagons. Looking at plans of Penzance, Longrock and Marazion, plus personal memories, I don't recall any Coal Staithes etc., in yards at all.All inward bound coal was by sea. Agreed the GWR more than likely transhiped in their own wagons coal for the loco depots. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 Wasn't there some mineral traffic from quarries in Cornwall, would any of them had their own wagons, Helston(?) or Cheesewring/Liskeard(?) cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 (edited) I've never understood why Helston Gas Works had it's own PO's, the Gas works themselves were the other side of town (more or less) thus incurring double handling, the ex., Gas Works was near the new Lidl store.Being mindful that the Cornish are not renowned for extravagant expenditure, and the GWR (to a lesser degree than the NER) would try to keep any goods movements in it's own wagons, I'm not surprised there's so few PO wagons. But that hasn't stopped me adding a PO wagon or two to my background layout based in the far, far west. Edited September 25, 2016 by Penlan 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted September 26, 2016 Author Share Posted September 26, 2016 I like Rowe wagons. I always link the name Rowe with Pasties, having lived in Camborne. Business diversification? I actually think that there were more NER wagons than ones from northwest Devon and Cornwall. The NER wagon registers are a little light so people always said that there were none but if you look at the H&BR, NBR, GCR and LYR registers there are a fair number of wagons based in NER region. Marc 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Platt Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 (edited) I've seen photos of wagons of TJ Sharp &Co, Federated Coal & Shipping Co Ltd (Cardiff), Par Harbour, Candy & Co Ltd, Cambrian Rly, LNWR as well as GWR and the clay company 7 plankers carrying coal. North Cornwall CCL, ECC, Hannan Samuel & Co; Hall & Co and the agents Toyne Carter Ltd almost certainly carried coal from local ports to the Linhays in the early days as well as clay to Par and Fowey harbours. These are just a few of many, the problem is finding photos of them!! Edited July 30, 2020 by Nick Platt Spelling!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Holliday Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 May I suggest you go to the Lightmoor Press website and look for the index of Private Owner Wagons they link to. Then, perhaps using this source https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_railway_stations_in_Cornwall and using the search facility within the PDF file, try each station name in turn. Admittedly sketchy returns compared with other counties, but a quick search found three traders in Fowey and one in Truro. Happy hunting! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted July 31, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 31, 2020 Model Railway Constructor June 1947 listed the following private owners of china clay wagons: Parkyn & Peters, Burngullow China Clay Works The Goonvean China Clay & Stone Co Ltd, St Austell English Clays Lovering Pochin & Co Ltd, St Austeall Toyne Carter & Co, Fowey Clunes & Co, Coal Factors, Par Betty & Tom Ltd, Menheniot Par Harbour Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted December 6, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 6, 2020 (edited) Related question: In the mid to late 50s the Cornish china clay rakes were mostly the BR built opens plus a fair number of the similar GWR 013s but mixed in are some private owners. They are visually similar 5 even plank end door wagons but with thick wooden buffer beams, no tie bar and a much thicker bottom plank/floor making them higher overall. Any idea what these were? They have diagonal strapping but I wonder if these are the original Gloucester W&C as modelled by Cooper Craft/Slaters but with diagonal strapping added later? The vertical straps either side of the side door curve out at the bottom; I can't see the buffers in any of the pics I have. I have one photo of a non door end of one which has upright stanchions of the thick wooden type, rather than steel. I've got one number - P387160 Any help appreciated! Edited December 6, 2020 by Hal Nail Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted December 6, 2020 Author Share Posted December 6, 2020 They sound like the ones bought by ECC in the 1930's I have a photo of one. Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted December 6, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 6, 2020 7 hours ago, Furness Wagon said: They sound like the ones bought by ECC in the 1930's I have a photo of one. Marc Do you know a source of further info on these by any chance? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted December 6, 2020 Author Share Posted December 6, 2020 Photo of the 5 plank in Hudson Vol4, plate 18, Wagon 490 built 1928 by Hall, Lewis and Co Cardiff. 5 plank, 16ft6 LOH, 9ft WB, 8ft wide. As you can see below ECC wagons came in all shapes. Photo courtesy of Wheal Martin Museum Great Treverbyn was absorbed into ECC. Photo courtesy of Wheal Martin Museum Hope this helps Marc 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halvarras Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 4 hours ago, Furness Wagon said: Photo of the 5 plank in Hudson Vol4, plate 18, Wagon 490 built 1928 by Hall, Lewis and Co Cardiff. 5 plank, 16ft6 LOH, 9ft WB, 8ft wide. As you can see below ECC wagons came in all shapes. English China Clays No 490 seems to be a favourite for RTR manufacturers, most recently Hornby turned out their 5-plank wagon in this livery (R6666) and also that 'orrible train set LWB open wagon on a brake van underframe, and earlier still I'm sure Bachmann had a 5-plank wagon in their range too. Bachmann Cornish Coal Trader triple-set 37-081TL includes Helston Gas Co, Rowe of Roskear (which have been mentioned above) and Thomlin & Co of Truro - is the latter genuine? Idle curiosity as I used to live there....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted December 7, 2020 Author Share Posted December 7, 2020 It in Matthews Private-Owner Wagons ((Specialist Booklets No.11) by Peter Matthews ISBN 9780852423431) page 38 as a drawing I have never seen a photo. https://lightmoor.co.uk/BDLpdf_files/Private_Owner_Wagons_Index.pdf this is always worth having its not got the latest PO wagons vol.15 on it but it has about everything else. Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halvarras Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 Thanks for this Marc, found it. I wonder if Bachmann managed to find a photo.......in the absence of one they may have been hedging their bets by making it commonly used grey with white lettering shaded black and numbering it 'No 1' (which neatly sidesteps the question of fleet size!) and thus also making it different to the red and black of the other two wagons in the set. Depends on the info supplied with the drawing, if any? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted December 7, 2020 Author Share Posted December 7, 2020 The drawing only shows a 1923RCH 7plk with side and end doors and unshaded letters. No colours of any sort mentioned. The company is a bit of mystery Mr Google only comes up with this thread, the 00 wagon set and the PO wagon index. nothing else. Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium rab Posted December 7, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 7, 2020 22 hours ago, Hal Nail said: Do you know a source of further info on these by any chance? Would those be the ones that are available In model form coloured red? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted December 7, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 7, 2020 (edited) This is a snippet from a photo of the ones I am referring to - not credited or dated unfortunately but others in the sequence were 1955. The nearest wagon is a private owner attached to a BR built example. Edited December 7, 2020 by Hal Nail 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted December 7, 2020 Author Share Posted December 7, 2020 Strapping doesn't match the ECC wagon in bill hudson's vol 4 Marc 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 Wessex Wagons? In their "Current" section: Quote West of England Chinastone & Clay Company. St Austell 5-plank wagon with authentic chinastone load, No.43. In "Future", they say: Quote The next batch of releases is due in late January 2021, focussing on wagons from Cornwall, and will be noted here early in the New Year. http://www.wessexwagons.co.uk/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted December 9, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 9, 2020 Wessex wagons usually use Dapol RTR wagons for their range, so be aware that the livery may be accurate, but the wagon may not be. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Holliday Posted December 10, 2020 Share Posted December 10, 2020 17 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said: Wessex wagons usually use Dapol RTR wagons for their range, so be aware that the livery may be accurate, but the wagon may not be. Regrettably the liveries on most of the Wessex range are inaccurate, in that the solebar is always black, whereas the norm with a timber underframe was for the solebar to be painted the same colour as the body, with the ironwork usually painted (tarred?) black. Black solebars would be correct for a steel framed chassis, which was, until relatively recently, the only option Dapol had, but rare on PO wagons, at least until the thirties. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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