The shrinking Royal Navy

[Ohmisterporter]

As an aside there is an element of this in Ed Macy's 'Apache' which in essence is an account of the rescue of a Marine's body from a Taliban compound (it's the one where Marines strapped themselves to the pods on the Apaches). The armaments sergeant wasn't too keen on them bringing ordnance back especially that which was getting towards its sell by date.

 

What he couldn't have envisaged was that in thirty two minutes of the action the Apaches expended £1,060,794.20p worth of ammunition. It did relieve him of a lot of paperwork though.

 

I like the accountancy down to the 20p. A mate was a sergeant in a British Army infantry regiment. He told me of an exercise  they had been on in Germany alongside US Army troops. At the end of it he went around his platoon with a sack collecting all the unused rifle ammunition, it all had to be accounted for. The Americans emptied their guns by shooting into sand pits. Probably made accountancy easier, "We used it all", and kept the troops accustomed to the feel of live ammunition being fired. Then again, they do spend a bit more than us on their defence budget.  

[jjb1970]

This was the Sea Slug as carried by the Destroyers HMS  Glamorgan and HMS Antrim.

 

Keith.

 

Sea Slug was one of those weapons that looked far more impressive than it actually was. They were big missiles and the Country Class destroyers were basically designed around the missile, in Mk.2 form they had pretty impressive flight performance too. Many naval architects consider that one of the biggest design mistakes made by the post war RN was the decision to handle the Sea Slug horizontally rather than vertically, the USN and other navies (including the RN subsequently) went for vertical missile handling arrangements (before all going for VLS) which allowed naval architects much more flexibility when designing the platform.

[Bon Accord]

I like the accountancy down to the 20p. A mate was a sergeant in a British Army infantry regiment. He told me of an exercise  they had been on in Germany alongside US Army troops. At the end of it he went around his platoon with a sack collecting all the unused rifle ammunition, it all had to be accounted for. The Americans emptied their guns by shooting into sand pits. Probably made accountancy easier, "We used it all", and kept the troops accustomed to the feel of live ammunition being fired. Then again, they do spend a bit more than us on their defence budget.  

 

In 2005 whilst operating off Iraq we had a detachment of Marines onboard for ship protection, however they'd only been provided with a couple of hundred rounds of ammunition per man and hardly any 7.62 (cost!). That which had been provided was barely sufficient for any ship protection work in anger and no ammunition was allocated for training. As you say, in the UK forces EVERYTHING has to be accounted for and even one round going either missing or being used for non-sanctioned activites causes a major drama when it comes to bullet counting time.

The solution was that our WO2 went visiting some US Army personnel whilst we were in Umm Qasr and somewhat embarrassingly had to beg boxes of ammunition from them so we could have a SHOOTEX, which they were more than happy to provide in return for beer.

This was far from a unique situation at the time, both with regard to ammunition and even down to basic things like rations and toiletries.

[2750Papyrus]

In 2005 whilst operating off Iraq we had a detachment of Marines onboard for ship protection, however they'd only been provided with a couple of hundred rounds of ammunition per man and hardly any 7.62 (cost!). That which had been provided was barely sufficient for any ship protection work in anger and no ammunition was allocated for training. As you say, in the UK forces EVERYTHING has to be accounted for and even one round going either missing or being used for non-sanctioned activites causes a major drama when it comes to bullet counting time.

The solution was that our WO2 went visiting some US Army personnel whilst we were in Umm Qasr and somewhat embarrassingly had to beg boxes of ammunition from them so we could have a SHOOTEX, which they were more than happy to provide in return for beer.

This was far from a unique situation at the time, both with regard to ammunition and even down to basic things like rations and toiletries.

 

A precedent exists at least as far back as 1945 when whisly was traded for US drop tanks fitted "in, theatre" to Seafires operating with the British pacific fleet.

[jjb1970]

There's a reason why one of the nicknames used by the US for our forces is "the borrowers".

[Moggs Eye]

In 2005 whilst operating off Iraq we had a detachment of Marines onboard for ship protection, however they'd only been provided with a couple of hundred rounds of ammunition per man and hardly any 7.62 (cost!). That which had been provided was barely sufficient for any ship protection work in anger and no ammunition was allocated for training. As you say, in the UK forces EVERYTHING has to be accounted for and even one round going either missing or being used for non-sanctioned activites causes a major drama when it comes to bullet counting time.

The solution was that our WO2 went visiting some US Army personnel whilst we were in Umm Qasr and somewhat embarrassingly had to beg boxes of ammunition from them so we could have a SHOOTEX, which they were more than happy to provide in return for beer.

This was far from a unique situation at the time, both with regard to ammunition and even down to basic things like rations and toiletries.

 

Just before my squadron went over the border in Iraq in 2003 the SQMS's Bedford rolled into the location and kicked off boxes and boxes of 5.56mm rounds for the rifles and a load of 7.62mm for the GPMGs and then drove off. I'd never seen so much in one place. We must have got yours.

[Bon Accord]

Just before my squadron went over the border in Iraq in 2003 the SQMS's Bedford rolled into the location and kicked off boxes and boxes of 5.56mm rounds for the rifles and a load of 7.62mm for the GPMGs and then drove off. I'd never seen so much in one place. We must have got yours.

 

That same trip the Booties hadn't been issued with any radios, we had a Colours (Comms) with us and before they left Pompey he had to go to Tandy to buy some of the plastic kiddie style type radios so they could at least communicate. They did this using their own money.

Just another very British shambles.

[jamie92208]

Nothing new for the Marines. Someone I worked with had been in IIRC 45 commando in the 60's when they were ordered into Tanganyika at short notice to assist in putting down a coup. They landed and discovered that though they had plenty of stores someone had forgotten to pack any ammunition so that only had what was in their webbing. Fortunately it was all sorted out very quickly without any shots being fired.

 

Jamie

[skipepsi]

I think the Pentagon has 'Lost'  $8 trillion dollars they might know where it is now you have let the cat out of the bag...

[WessexEclectic]

I think the Pentagon has 'Lost' $8 trillion dollars they might know where it is now you have let the cat out of the bag...

Some of it went this way.

 

This can't have been the first time either...

[Ozexpatriate]

Some of our Naval Observers might be interested to know that the Chinese aircraft carrier Liaoning has left 'home' waters and is entering the open Pacific.

 

I wonder where it will be come January 21^st?

[Ohmisterporter]

I have not read much about the Peoples Liberation Army Navy* building up a fleet train to follow their carriers around the Pacific. Without that they are fairly restricted as to their radius of operations. Looking ahead, there may be two new RN carriers going cheap, a bit of modification to operate CATOBAR and they may be a useful addition to any navy wanting big carriers.

 

I jest.

 

*There is something that just doesn't sound right to me. 

[pete_mcfarlane]

As ever, it feels that whatever the Chinese military do is presented in the media as evidence of their imminent rise to Global Superpower status. Even if it's doing something incredibly basic that many other minor powers can already do. 

[skipepsi]

It appears to me that some people are looking for new enemies to justify themselves and their employers.

[BlackRat]

Most, well all of the decent kit I had as a Booty.......I bought myself, from boots to a Bergen.

 

This was often overlooked until you got a pussers ahole in charge!

 

I did jungle training in 83 and was issued shirts and boots date stamped in the 1950s.....

 

The boots fell apart on the first patrol and we had to tie the soles on with paracord.

 

We had useless mills bags and tablets for the water, which meant we were never properly hydrated and the casualty rate went up accordingly.

 

We had a USMC Gunny with us and his kit was amazing, including a sort of osmosis pump and a camelback.

 

We were still using jungle tactics designed to fight against the Japanese etc and the Gunny just used to laugh.

 

Had the same in Norway, where we all used to buy Norwegian army shirts and jumpers as opposed to Angola shirts from the 1940,s!

[jjb1970]

Many years ago the late AJP Taylor wrote that the definition of a great power is the capability to fight a great war and that the secret to remaining a great power is never to fight a great war. Typically Taylor, pithy and memorable, it remains a pretty good summary of global power politics.

[Bon Accord]

Most, well all of the decent kit I had as a Booty.......I bought myself, from boots to a Bergen.

 

This was often overlooked until you got a pussers ahole in charge!

 

I did jungle training in 83 and was issued shirts and boots date stamped in the 1950s.....

 

The boots fell apart on the first patrol and we had to tie the soles on with paracord.

 

We had useless mills bags and tablets for the water, which meant we were never properly hydrated and the casualty rate went up accordingly.

 

We had a USMC Gunny with us and his kit was amazing, including a sort of osmosis pump and a camelback.

 

We were still using jungle tactics designed to fight against the Japanese etc and the Gunny just used to laugh.

 

Had the same in Norway, where we all used to buy Norwegian army shirts and jumpers as opposed to Angola shirts from the 1940,s!

 

Nothing much has changed. Any visit to a port with a USN PX still witnesses some serious purchases being made.

One trip it did make me laugh watching some Matelots wheeling back a gas fired BBQ from the Bahrain PX during a weekend jolly ashore. The intention being to take it home by ship at the end of deployment (they did too).

When you consider that even those PX in theatre have an array of goods comparable to a Walmart it puts the NAAFI somewhat in the shade.

For quite some time I never paid much attention to the PX and didn't even visit one until the recent Gulf adventure, and only then somewhat sceptically visiting the one in Kuwait (the alternative being to visit tent city). I think every one of us came out of there with a KBAR, camelback the requisite set of Oakleys and a mountain of beef jerky and other treats.

[Ozexpatriate]

Some of our Naval Observers might be interested to know that the Chinese aircraft carrier Liaoning has left 'home' waters and is entering the open Pacific.

 

I wonder where it will be come January 21^st?

More fun in the Pacific. The Russians plan joint exercises with the Filipinos and have arrived in Manila.

[The Stationmaster]

More fun in the Pacific. The Russians plan joint exercises with the Filipinos and have arrived in Manila.

 

Hope the Russians have cleaned up their ships - the last time I walked round the decks of a Russian warship (at Devonport Navy Days) they were plastered with diesel oil and the crew looked to be in need of a good wash and a square meal.   Impressive looking weaponry but a less than professional appearance.

[jjb1970]

The Phillippines must be the only country on earth saddled with a President who makes Don look like a model of probity.

[hayfield]

I sometimes wonder why we need a Navy that has the ability (all be it limited) to travel the world. My own thoughts is that the Navy should be there to protect our country and if the same money and man hours was devoted to protecting our borders from those wishing to either harm us, smuggle drugs/goods/people or just enter the country illegally would be a far better use of out taxes 

[The Stationmaster]

I sometimes wonder why we need a Navy that has the ability (all be it limited) to travel the world. My own thoughts is that the Navy should be there to protect our country and if the same money and man hours was devoted to protecting our borders from those wishing to either harm us, smuggle drugs/goods/people or just enter the country illegally would be a far better use of out taxes 

 

This comes back to my much earlier point about a need to decide exactly what the country wants its Navy to do/be capable of doing.  As a maritime nation - still in many respects - we obviously have to be capable of protecting the ships that bring us food, fuel, and raw materials for at least part of their journey and that means a bluewater navy capability as well as an ability to protect our coasts and clear them and the sea lanes of mines.  Our NATO commitment means awe have to have an amphibious landing force which we also would have to protect.  Alas we no longer have the resources to manage all of that so which do we forego?

 

Incidentally incoming idiot President Trump is talking about the possibility of cancelling the F35 programme.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Incidentally incoming idiot President Trump is talking about the possibility of cancelling the F35 programme.

He doesn't have the option of doing that - from what I've read elsewhere the funding has consistently been voted through by Congress with 'supermajorities' , so the President is unable to veto it. Trump won't actually control the purse strings. 

 

I think his recent bashing of the F-35 is all talk. His electoral platform was based around being an outsider 'cleaning up' supposed corruption in mainstream US politics, so making a big fuss about how Lockheed are supposedly ripping off the US taxpayer through the F-35 is simply another part of that theatre. When nothing happens as a result of his Tweets, then the orange faced one can simply claim that he tried to sort things but 'the system' rallied to protect itself. 

 

And as ever with criticism of the F-35, he's missed the key point that no matter how big the F-35 programme gets, it will still cost a lot less than the traditional US route having 3 or 4 separate programmes to provide multiple different aircraft for the USAF, US Navy and Marines. 

[Ohmisterporter]

I have to laugh at the overreaction of some news media when foreign warships sail in international waters close to "our" coast, whilst at the same time accepting that it is perfectly reasonable for our ships to sail in international waters near "their" coast. Things have changed a little though; when a country finds an uninhabited reef and dredges up the seabed to create an island big enough for a runway and missile base. And then claim that all the sea between their mainland and the new island is "their" territorial waters and foreign naval forces that used to sail those seas are not welcome. I do not wish natural disaster on anyone but it will be interesting to see what effect the next tsunami in the area will have on the "new" island.

[Ozexpatriate]

...  it will be interesting to see what effect the next tsunami in the area will have on the "new" island.

I'm not sure what the incident rate of tsunamis are in the South China Sea in places like the Spratly islands.  Somehow I don't think it's the same threat level as the Japanese Pacific coast or south and west of Indonesia.