The shrinking Royal Navy

[jjb1970]

And one from Germany.....

 

https://www.marinelink.com/news/overweight-germanys425270

[pete_mcfarlane]

And one from Germany.....

 

https://www.marinelink.com/news/overweight-germanys425270

Don't be silly. Every pub bore knows that the UK's equipment is rubbish (because BAe rip us off) and everyone else's is perfect. 

 

On the subject of ill informed comments, here's some from The Donald about the US Navy's shiny new electromagnetic catapaults: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/11/digital-digital-donald-trump-tells-navy-use-goddamned-steam/

[jjb1970]

The UK and USA seem quite unusual in revelling in very public self flagellation when it comes to things like this. Based on what I've seen of various naval programs I wouldn't say that the issues the UK has with warships are any worse than average and certainly no worse than other NATO navies.

[pete_mcfarlane]

The UK and USA seem quite unusual in revelling in very public self flagellation when it comes to things like this. Based on what I've seen of various naval programs I wouldn't say that the issues the UK has with warships are any worse than average and certainly no worse than other NATO navies.

I get the impression the US ones are driven largely by pork barrel politics. Look at the way the F-35 is being maligned in comparison with previous generation fighter jets (mainly ones which just happen to be still available from firms not involved in the F-35 programme). 

 

Ours seems to be the usual 'everything is rubbish' mentality that the press panders to. 

[billbedford]

Ours seems to be the usual 'everything is rubbish' mentality that the press panders to. 

 

 

Surely not, isn't it a case of 'everything was better in my day'?

[manna]

G'Day Gents

 

If the Harrier is so 'Bad' how come the USMC can't get enough of them, one of the 'Daftest' moves the British Government ever made.

 

manna

[rockershovel]

G'Day Gents

 

If the Harrier is so 'Bad' how come the USMC can't get enough of them, one of the 'Daftest' moves the British Government ever made.

 

manna

.... because it doesn't fit into either the "total financialisation" model of British politics, or the "pork barrel" politics of the EU, especially Germany and France. Germany has been rebuilt completely as a nation state, twice within 100 years, hence the central position in national life of companies like Siemens or Thyssen.

 

The British model of creating employment is to extend concessions to companies which then leave when those concessions expire, and/or they have asset-stripped the original company. The German or French model is to retain a controlling stake in an operation which actually produces something. The EU model is to distribute the elements of an operation on wholly political grounds (e.g. Airbus).

[rockershovel]

Surely not, isn't it a case of 'everything was better in my day'?

Having recently bought a 2013 Triumph Bonneville, and as a sometime owner of a Meriden Triumph, I can assure you that this is not necessarily so..

Edited May 18, 2017 by rockershovel

[Legend]

G'Day Gents

 

If the Harrier is so 'Bad' how come the USMC can't get enough of them, one of the 'Daftest' moves the British Government ever made.

 

manna

Along with getting rid of Maritime survelillance

 

I do think we need a new SDR based on equipment we have now , our role in the world post Brexit and where we want to be in 20-30 years time. I can see the requirement to expand Airforce and Navy but I'm uncertain what size of Army we need. We certainly need them for self defence and for rapid mobilisation abroad but do we need large tank battalions any more. Does anyone think we are going to invade anyone in near future other than in a short sharp intervention?

 

Navy role

Secure seas around UK including new fishing limits. We may need more low tech patrol boats,frigates

Need to have a well armed expeditionary force centered round Aircraft Carriers , landing ships. Need for Air defence destroyers and ASW frigates to secure carriers

The Strategic Deterrent .New Trident boats

SSN force for defence of SSBNs and power projection abroad deploying cruise missiles.

 

We may actually have enough boats for our new role in the world but just not of the right type and certainly not well armed with lack of anti ship missiles for one.

 

With North Korea and possibly others developing Ballistic Weapons do we need a BMDS. . Should it be deployed on the Daring class . Do we need more of these , less Type 26s and more low tech patrol boats/frigates/corvettes.

 

That's the sort of questions we should be asking

Edited May 18, 2017 by Legend

[Barry O]

We haven't got large armoured brigades..2 heavy tank regiments only from next year and everyone is calling themselves as the Russians have a new tank. France has a 140mm gun in a Leclerc, Germany is reactivating some Leo 2s..and we are deliberating on a MLU for 126 CR2 as we screwed up the through life funding..

Navy wise if we are short there are (were?) 3 perfectly nice frigates in Barrow Dock along with Astute Boat 4 with 5,6 and 7 on the way.

 

If we can use Harriers now reactivate the ones used for Deck handling training at Yeovilton.

 

Of course we will, post Brexit, require an awful lot more fishery protection and immigration patrol vessels. If we get them how would the UK crew them?

[JeremyC]

......Of course we will, post Brexit, require an awful lot more fishery protection and immigration patrol vessels. If we get them how would the UK crew them?

But these don't have to be military vessels. Fishery Protection in Scotland is (and has mainly been since the late 1800s) carried out by civilian ships and crews and the Border Agency has its own cutters. I'd suggest these are really policing operations and use of expensive military assets is unnecessary. Edited May 18, 2017 by JeremyC

[Guius]

We haven't got large armoured brigades..2 heavy tank regiments only from next year and everyone is calling themselves as the Russians have a new tank. France has a 140mm gun in a Leclerc, Germany is reactivating some Leo 2s..and we are deliberating on a MLU for 126 CR2 as we screwed up the through life funding..

Navy wise if we are short there are (were?) 3 perfectly nice frigates in Barrow Dock along with Astute Boat 4 with 5,6 and 7 on the way.

 

If we can use Harriers now reactivate the ones used for Deck handling training at Yeovilton.

 

Of course we will, post Brexit, require an awful lot more fishery protection and immigration patrol vessels. If we get them how would the UK crew them?

If I may interject, the three frigates mentioned have not been in Barrow's Buccleuch Dock since 2014 (laid up in ordinary). Being built for the Sultan of Brunei and built to serve in tropical waters these vessels did not have bulk head/deck head/ hull insulation, and, as a result they 'sweated' in temperate waters rendering them unsuitable for most NATO applications without a very expensive refit.  If I tell you anymore I'll have to kill you.

 

Regards

Guy

[pete_mcfarlane]

I'd not realised that we had so many F-35Bs. 

 

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/united-kingdom-takes-delivery-10th-f-35-128-go/

 

No doubt we'll still be hearing about how the UK is buy aircraft carriers without any aircraft.

[Mike Storey]

I'd not realised that we had so many F-35Bs. 

 

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/united-kingdom-takes-delivery-10th-f-35-128-go/

 

No doubt we'll still be hearing about how the UK is buy aircraft carriers without any aircraft.

 

Thanks for this. Trying to unscramble the various pronouncements within it:

 

a) The first QE carrier will have at least one squadron on board at operational commissioning, albeit supplemented with US Navy aircraft until around 2023/24?

 

b) At least 148 F35B's will be purchased, but delivery could take up to (or beyond) 2030.

 

c) The maximum number of F35B's on a QE can be in the low 50's, in a war situation, so, theoretically, one could assume the RN could field about 100 sea-based in a war?

 

d) However, given the RAF will want quite a few of these, it is not at all clear just how many (and when) could be operationally available to the RN at any one time, given the training and maintenance requirements, as well as the protracted delivery schedule?

 

Any views?

 

As an aside, I see in the comments below the article that a few have chosen the opportunity to take a pop at Corbyn, never mind that it was the blue party that mostly decimated our armed forces over the past 40 years (although Labour don't shine either in that respect). It just never stops, does it?!

[pete_mcfarlane]

c) The maximum number of F35B's on a QE can be in the low 50's, in a war situation, so, theoretically, one could assume the RN could field about 100 sea-based in a war?

I was under the impression that the ships could carry more aircraft than they could operate. So increasing the numbers above 40 doesn't give you anything extra, except a pool of spare aircraft in case any of the 40 ones in use takes a prang. 

 

d) However, given the RAF will want quite a few of these, it is not at all clear just how many (and when) could be operationally available to the RN at any one time, given the training and maintenance requirements, as well as the protracted delivery schedule?

Presumably they'll do the same as happened with the Invincible class, before it all started to go wrong with the UK carrier force.

 

They normally carried a squadron of Sea Harriers, and this was reinforced with extra RAF Harrier aircraft when needed. Current plans seem to be for 2 operational FAA squadrons - so possibly one per carrier, to be supplemented by the RAF ones when needed. 

 

As an aside, I see in the comments below the article that a few have chosen the opportunity to take a pop at Corbyn, never mind that it was the blue party that mostly decimated our armed forces over the past 40 years (although Labour don't shine either in that respect). It just never stops, does it?!

Labour will forever be associated with the CVA-01 cancellation, and subsequent scrapping of most of the fixed wing carrier force. Even the bits that Ted Heath did. (In much the same way that all coal mines were closed by Mrs Thatcher, even those closing before and after she was in power). 

[Ohmisterporter]

The Telegraph had this article about the modular building of warships to break the BAE monopoly. The method was proven with the QEC but with frigates being much smaller I wonder what the savings would be. Without getting too deep into politics perhaps there are second thoughts in Whitehall regarding having our main warship building capacity in Scotland. 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/28/could-selling-warships-abroad-break-baes-dominance-building/

[Ohmisterporter]

An update on HMS Queen Elizabeth from the Save the Royal Navy blog suggests that she will be ready to sail in the next few weeks.

 

http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/hms-queen-elizabeth-gets-ready-for-departure-from-rosyth/

[The Stationmaster]

An update on HMS Queen Elizabeth from the Save the Royal Navy blog suggests that she will be ready to sail in the next few weeks.

 

http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/hms-queen-elizabeth-gets-ready-for-departure-from-rosyth/

 

There was a report in 'The Daily Telegraph' that some crew members on HMS Queen Elizabeth' are putting in their tickets.  However the same seems to be be the case on other 'large vessels' in the fleet where there is a frustration because of lack of operational readiness and too much work for some sorting work left undone by dockyards while others are kicking their heels.  There's also some dissatisfaction in the change of progression to Leading hand which now requires a 2 year course back at Raleigh instead of the previous systems of building up experience, and 'certificates' on the job.

 

No doubt always a lot of 'dripping' in the messdecks of the RN but seemingly some dissatisfaction around at the moment and there is definitely a ban on some ships on crew members applying for other vessels or types of ship.

[TomE]

Impressive sight today, QNLZ leaving the Rosyth basin for open waters.

 

 

Tom.

[jjb1970]

Put the politics aside and all the budgetary issues and we can feel a bit of pride in these ships. There's a lot of innovation and clever engineering in them. The twin island look isn't to everyone's taste but I think they're splendid looking ships.

[TomE]

A great series of photos here:

 

https://resources.baesystems.com/pages/search.php?search=%21collection37612&k=15ab8af275

 

Tom. 

[TomE]

This one nicely highlights the shear size of the thing:

 

 

A capability we should never really have been without, but the QE class is clearly a step change over the Invincible's.

 

Lets just hope we manage to keep both and not end up selling one off. 

 

Tom.  

[jjb1970]

Built to the LR naval ship rules, I believe the QEC remains the largest contract in the history of LR.

[TomE]

Some nice drone footage found on-line:

 

 

Tom. 

[jamie92208]

I do like the tug that sat across the stern to push it along, presumably using those special propellers that can thrust in any direction. Though the 2 island design looks odd it's growing on me. After all the British conceived most of the true advances in carrier design such as the angled deck and the steam catapult. Perhaps there will be similar ships built for other nations.

 

Jamie