The shrinking Royal Navy

[Fenman]

 

This country has always had the highest regard for it's services and believes it's forces are amongst the best in the world. In the case of RN equipment, at least, this is obviously incorrect. But no one gives a damn

Well now I'm genuinely curious. The RN looks, to an uninformed observer like me, to have some very good kit. The USN would clearly overwhelm the RN, but which other countries do you think could beat the RN in a fight? Russia has more hulls, I think, but isn't there some doubt as to their effectiveness? France? China?

 

An opposition politician a few years back was complaining that the UK had a "3rd rate" navy; it struck me as strange. Ignoring the nuclear deterrent subs, which "3rd rate" power has nuclear-powered hunter-killer subs? Or even a QE sized aircraft carrier? Or anything like the RN's capability in ASW?

 

Having written that I'm sympathetic to the idea, expressed above, that quantity has its own quality - the actual number of RN platforms looks light to me.

 

Anyway, would be interested in anyone's views.

 

Paul

Edited February 11, 2017 by Fenman

[PhilH]

The effectiveness of the Trident boats depends on the hunter killers which sweep their departure and return routes and track Russian subs trying to tail the missile boats. If we have no hunter killers its a massive degradation in the effectiveness of the nuclear deterrent. And that's without considering all their other tasks.

I wasn't commenting on that, just saying that not all of our subs are kaput.

[pete_mcfarlane]

But on the other hand, it's not really clear from the news reports what the current situation is, except that 1 sub was at sea on either trials or training, and 6 were in harbour. 

 

Are they all out of action for an extended period of time, or was there just a period of few days when none of the ones which are currently operational were at sea due to minor defects? I suspect it's the latter, especially if the PM is being 'kept in the dark' (i.e. not told about something fairly minor).

 

It's also worth pointing out that about 15 years ago there was a well publicised period of several months when all the attack submarines were laid up with reactor problems, so the media statements about this being the first time that the UK has had no attack submarines available is clearly not correct. 

[jjb1970]

I wasn't commenting on that, just saying that not all of our subs are kaput.

Indeed, apologies if it looked like I was having a go. Just making the point as few people realise that probably the most important job of the hunter killer boats is to protect the deterrent.

[laurenceb]

Not so very long ago nuclear power was not considered suitable for hunter-killer subs because they cannot run silent

[62613]

Kipling's famous which I think is called 'Tommy' comes to mind.  It's about how soldiers are reviled in peacetime but loved when war comes.

 

Jamie

'Tommy's Lot'

[Ohmisterporter]

http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/SPARTAN.pdf

 

Just had another look at the Stellar Systems design I noticed they have the white ensign flying back to front. They have an interesting concept; design a general purpose frigate that is suitable for several navies and the Royal Navy can buy cheap ships that will do some kind of job. But that is not how it works is it? By the time the navy has added the equipment and changes it would require they will be so far from the basic model that they will increase in price and the savings from an off the shelf design will be lost. We have seen it happen before, Chinook and Hercules spring to mind.

I may be wrong but at one time the French forces had to use equipment that was primarily designed with export potential in mind, and their exporters did very well out of it but they were never highly rated against other NATO equipment despite the men being the equal of many. 

[Legend]

Well now I'm genuinely curious. The RN looks, to an uninformed observer like me, to have some very good kit. The USN would clearly overwhelm the RN, but which other countries do you think could beat the RN in a fight? Russia has more hulls, I think, but isn't there some doubt as to their effectiveness? France? China?

An opposition politician a few years back was complaining that the UK had a "3rd rate" navy; it struck me as strange. Ignoring the nuclear deterrent subs, which "3rd rate" power has nuclear-powered hunter-killer subs? Or even a QE sized aircraft carrier? Or anything like the RN's capability in ASW?

Having written that I'm sympathetic to the idea, expressed above, that quantity has its own quality - the actual number of RN platforms looks light to me.

Anyway, would be interested in anyone's views.

Paul

I think that's the point Paul . It looks to have good kit but reality is different.

 

We know the Type 45s have issues where switching everything on overloads their power capacity, and so they break down. It was only a few months ago when it was reported that all 6 were in port.

 

Which navies could defeat the RN . Anything that has an over the horizon surface to surface missile , of which Russian destroyers and cruisers have many, and a good few other navies too. We lack offensive armament so I ask what could we do to another Navy?

 

Maybe you missed it but having Nuclear Hunter Killer subs is a bit academic if they are all in port with faults.

 

So I think even on paper , we don't have such a great fleet. I would cite lack of an offensive capability as being a major issue. But even looking at the paper capabilities , the reality appears to be different. Thank god for the type 23s , seem to be the only class of vessel that's working to capability.

[PhilH]

Is anybody actually sure that, for instance, the Russian navy doesn't have problems all of its own? I've been trying to glean some info about it from the internet, not a lot available obviously, but there are references to the fact that maybe they class operational somewhat differently from what we do, eg ships in port for whatever reason with just a skeleton crew are still classed as operational.

 

When the carrier went through the channel with all the clag and an accompanying tug the thought did cross my mind that perhaps their navy wasn't all it was cracked up to be either.

[billbedford]

The effectiveness of the Trident boats depends on the hunter killers which sweep their departure and return routes and track Russian subs trying to tail the missile boats. If we have no hunter killers its a massive degradation in the effectiveness of the nuclear deterrent. And that's without considering all their other tasks.

 

 

Perhaps the navy knows just how many Russia boats are at sea at any one time.....

[billbedford]

This country has always had the highest regard for it's services and believes it's forces are amongst the best in the world.

 

 

Apart from Peterloo, obviously. 

[Legend]

Is anybody actually sure that, for instance, the Russian navy doesn't have problems all of its own? I've been trying to glean some info about it from the internet, not a lot available obviously, but there are references to the fact that maybe they class operational somewhat differently from what we do, eg ships in port for whatever reason with just a skeleton crew are still classed as operational.

When the carrier went through the channel with all the clag and an accompanying tug the thought did cross my mind that perhaps their navy wasn't all it was cracked up to be either.

Oh I'm sure that Russian Navy has issues. actually the US look to have issues too as there was a report recently that a large part of their fleet was laid up awaiting repairs. But that's no excuse for us. If you invest in kit you should be getting a return on it, and basically it should work! Also larger Navies like the US have some form of redundancy, but with the low hull numbers we have , it could mean we have nothing at sea, as with the hunter killers Edited February 11, 2017 by Legend

[Arthur]

Is anybody actually sure that, for instance, the Russian navy doesn't have problems all of its own?

 

When the carrier went through the channel with all the clag and an accompanying tug the thought did cross my mind that perhaps their navy wasn't all it was cracked up to be either.

 

 

This from the Independent in December;

 

'However, analysts have pointed out that the Kuznetsov may be more trouble than it’s worth in combat after two crashes in the space of three weeks.

 

A MiG-29K crashed while trying to land on November 14, followed by a Su-33 fighter on December 3, the Russian Ministry of Defence confirmed.

 

Despite good weather conditions, the Su-33 ended up in the Mediterranean after the arresting cables that slow jets upon landing snapped. In both incidents, the pilots managed to eject safely and were picked up by search and rescue teams.

 

The carrier is somewhat of a joke among defence and security experts. It is prone to frequently breaking down, and is now accompanied by tugboats, just in case, and Russian media has reported that it only has 25 working toilets for up to 2,000 crew'.

 

 

 

Anyway, we now know the Kuznetsov's Achilles heel. Should the need arise, we attack the morning after curry night when they're all queuing for an operational shi**er.

 

 

 

.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Arthur

[Mike Storey]

The submarines did get a mention, very briefly, on an earlier news bulletin.  The NHS reporting this week on the Beeb does seem to have been somewhat skewed concentrating almost entirely on 'old' people while we were being told only a few months back there are major problems in the maternity area - presumably that has been forgotten because you can't blame it on 'old people'.

 

I saw a consultant last week and we discussed what to do about my condition ( a hernia) - it was decided, for various reasons, not to operate but if the decision had gone the other way I was assured no problem with theatre time, no problem getting a bed, only potential hiccup (reckoned to be minor in my case) would be getting the funding from the CCG; private hospital but everything funded by the NHS, all I did was ask to go to that hospital when I was given the choice.

 

OT - sorry - but the reason for focussing on the aged is bedblocking, which is causing the greatest crisis across all disciplines, which in turn is linked to the reducing availability of care home places against a rising demand, due to ever reducing council budgets. Very timely given the "deal" apparently done with Surrey. Until now, the government has not admitted there is anything seriously wrong that a few more efficiency savings wouldn't solve.

[jjb1970]

Not so very long ago nuclear power was not considered suitable for hunter-killer subs because they cannot run silent

 

The nuclear boats are pretty quiet. Clearly batteries and fuel cells will be quieter than a nuclear power plant but they still have electric motors and propulsors which make noise. The difference in endurance and power of the nuclear boats is immense, non-nuclear boats are better for littoral operations (as much for their smaller size as noise) but for oceanic ops they're just not in the same class as a nuclear boat. I think the nuclear navies would love to get non-nuclear boats which could offer them sufficient performance to replace nuclear power but to date it is just not possible.

[Mike Storey]

The nuclear boats are pretty quiet. Clearly batteries and fuel cells will be quieter than a nuclear power plant but they still have electric motors and propulsors which make noise. The difference in endurance and power of the nuclear boats is immense, non-nuclear boats are better for littoral operations (as much for their smaller size as noise) but for oceanic ops they're just not in the same class as a nuclear boat. I think the nuclear navies would love to get non-nuclear boats which could offer them sufficient performance to replace nuclear power but to date it is just not possible.

 

Yeah, and that bloke working for Scott Glenn, in Red October, could pick out the really quiet ones anyway?

[Barry O]

So other than re-vitalling an Astute you don't need to refuel the boat for 25 years. Means less time surfaced.

 

Not sure that a reactor is that noisy..Calder Hall wasn't she I visited it while it was still running. The turbines and the electrical equipment can make a noise. I suppose they can shield these?

 

They have said Astute is at sea, Ambush and Artful are not at the moment. Could be, if all the TS are at home the dockyard mateys aare a bit stretched?

[Bon Accord]

Yeah, and that bloke working for Scott Glenn, in Red October, could pick out the really quiet ones anyway?

 

As part of the production process Scott Glenn spent some time with the CO of a Los Angeles class SSN such that what appeared in "The Hunt for Red October" set alarm bells ringing in the Pentagon. Of course at that time the old CCCP was falling apart so it didn't cause anything like as much of a drama as it may have done so 10 years previously!

[jamie92208]

One bit of good naval news on this mornings news.  HMS Dragon, one of the Type 45's that aren't supposed to work very well ha performed a rescue somewhere in mid Atlantic, 22 people rescued from a dismasted yacht.   At least one of the class out there in the middle of the pond.  The Beeb did describe it as a type 2 destroyer. 

 

Jamie

[Ohmisterporter]

In the Save the Royal Navy blog today is this article about the current state of the hunter-killer submarine force. Hope you find this of interest.

 

http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/rn-attack-submarines-is-there-a-crisis/

[Mike Storey]

Reading this and associated issues regarding the Type 45, culminate in a tumult of "concern" over the performance of BAE systems, dating back to the 1990's/2000's. One of my old bosses at NR came directly from BAE systems. Almost everyone thought he was wonderful - he could certainly tell a good story in conferences. I could not work out why. One of his key responsibilities concerned the build up of the new electrification projects starting to re-gain favour politically. The estimates started to come in and he then moved across to HS2, after which the issues started to appear and we all know what has happened. He was at HS2 when revised estimates started to come in, and a number of issues started to emerge. He quickly moved on, out of the industry. All I can say is, thank goodness.

 

I do not doubt that BAES is a very professionally run and innovative engineering company, but if they were as in awe as the railway industry of people like him, it suggests the UK has a problem.

[Ozexpatriate]

Readiness problems aren't confined to the RN. The USN has widely reported problems with readiness on F18s. The linked report suggest that as many as 62% of the Navy's F18s are unfit to fly.

[pete_mcfarlane]

An interesting coda to the 'all of our submarines are broken' story from a couple of weeks back. 

 

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/hms-trenchant-hms-triumph-ready-deployment-dismissing-claims-will-never-sail/

[Night Train]

Its a bit of a sad thought when you think this American Carrier Group probably contains more ships then the entire UK navy could mobilise within a week.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt9b9VNH0Y0

[Legend]

And ships with rounded capabilities too. Surface to surface missiles, cruise missiles, AA missiles and helicopters for ASW.