The shrinking Royal Navy

[PhilH]

It's not going to be too long before the RAF at least have a good suite of quality, modern tools to use. Once the F35 comes into service, Brimstone is integrated with the Typhoon and they get rid of the Tornado then there are some pretty impressive bits of kit to use, from front line jets through ECM, surveillance, transport, tankers, drones, even the updated Pumas aren't bad.

 

Of course, whether they have enough is a moot point, but when is enough enough?

[pete_mcfarlane]

I am not saying this is the case in fighting a conventional war, if, God forbid, we ever have to, with Russia or China. Their weaponry is reasonably equivalent to ours in quality, but their numerical superiority in those weapons is often over-stated (other than manpower available, and to a certain extent armour - it is not clear how many of the Russian tanks massed on borders are actually operational). 

Isn't the issue with Russia and China (and probably India as well) that their militaries have multiple generations of weapons, ranging from their latest overhyped superweapons to stuff from the 1950s that was obsolete decades ago. The new equipment is only available in small numbers, yet Western media tends to portray them as having vast quantities of it poised to annihilate us.  

 

On a similar note, I'm currently reading 'Iron Coffins' by Herbert Werner, a German U-Boat commander from towards the end of WW2, who makes it pretty clear that Germany had small numbers of advanced U-Boats, and vast numbers of obsolete ones to make up the numbers. The obsolete ones never lasted long in combat, and he quite rightly views them as a waste of resources and lives. 

Edited February 7, 2017 by pete_mcfarlane

[Bon Accord]

On a similar note, I'm currently reading 'Iron Coffins' by Herbert Werner, a German U-Boat commander from towards the end of WW2, who makes it pretty clear that Germany had small numbers of advanced U-Boats, and vast numbers of obsolete ones to make up the numbers. The obsolete ones never lasted long in combat, and he quite rightly views them as a waste of resources and lives. 

 

I read Iron Coffins some years ago and it's probably one of the most sobering books on war and it's effects I've ever read.

[jjb1970]

By spring 1943 the Atlantic campaign had turned decisively against the U Boats, Admiral Doenitz continued to send his crews to sea knowing that their chances of surviving were poor. Oneof the oddities of how the war is remembered is that the early war successes of the U Boats and difficulties faced by the Allies in countering the threat have always been far more remembered than the decisive turn and the improvement in tactics and technology which facilitated this in the middle of the war. The outstanding achievement of Bletchley Park has tended to result in many thinking that the codebreakers won the war at sea, ignoring the fact that the Allied navies were also improving their ASW tactics and equipment which allowed them to combat the threat far more effectively even when their convoys were attacked.

[Dick Turpin]

The naval debate here, fascinating though it is, is somewhat reminiscent of a couple of scenes from the 'Ka of Gifford Hillary' by Dennis Wheatley. Anyone read it per chance?

[Ohmisterporter]

If you have a few minutes to spare you may find this debate from Theyworkforyou.com to be of interest. Probably typical of the work that goes on behind the scenes in Parliament this one concerns a committee debating the National Shipbuilding Strategy. As is generally the case in these debates there are occasional snippets of useful information. 

 

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/whall/?id=2017-02-08a.152.2&s=%22Royal+Navy%22#g175.1

[alastairq]

Thanks for that link....very useful, and enlightening.

 

As a lay person, not pretending to have anything like a full understanding of the issue...I get the impression that:

 

The Minister [MoD] is in fact stalling [surprise?] because of a wider political picture?

 

Perhaps to do with Brexit, certain members of the Scottish parliaments' threat to hold another referendum on independence? 

 

Tied in with a desire to have some sort of economic hold over Scotland, in that event?

 

Plus an ability to divorce essential British security procurement from any tie-in with a reduced EU?[should Scotland actually vote to become independent, therefore in essence voting to remain within/join the EU?]

 

Plus perhaps a deal with the current USA administration regarding the purchase of major arms , as a sweetener towards a  favorable trade deal?

 

In other words, no commitment to what a lot of us would like to see......until the future economic and political playing field gets fleshed out more?

 

I'm glad I no longer work for the MoD!! :)

Edited February 9, 2017 by alastairq

[pete_mcfarlane]

There's another article on the forthcoming shipbuilding strategy here: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/what-is-the-virtual-shipbuilding-strategy/

 

This suggests that the type 31s will be built in modules in various UK shipyards, with possibly only final assembly happening on the Clyde. There seems to be an implication that some of this work will happen in parallel to the type 26 build. 

 

The Minister [MoD] is in fact stalling [surprise?] because of a wider political picture?

My reading is that there's a) a report, completed in November, and b) a strategy based on the report, not yet finished or published.

 

Some MPs were expected the strategy to have been delivered in November. It's not clear (to me at least) if they're confused, the MoD wasn't clear on the timescales, or if it's just another chance to have a pop at the Government.

[Torper]

I note that the UK's entire fleet of attack submarines is currently out of action.  No mention of this on the BBC website, but it is on Russia Today! (and on most of the British printed media).

 

DT

[PhilH]

I note that the UK's entire fleet of attack submarines is currently out of action. No mention of this on the BBC website, but it is on Russia Today! (and on most of the British printed media).

 

DT

RT is quoting The Sun as its source...so it must be true... Edited February 10, 2017 by PhilH

[Mike Storey]

I note that the UK's entire fleet of attack submarines is currently out of action.  No mention of this on the BBC website, but it is on Russia Today! (and on most of the British printed media).

 

DT

 

and interestingly, on ForcesTV!!

[pete_mcfarlane]

It has all the hallmarks of an RT story - your country puny and leader lie to people, not strong country like Russia with handsome leader Vladimir. 

[Torper]

It's actually also in The Times, the Telegraph, The Independent, the Mail, the Express, and so on, accompanied by the suggestion Theresa May has been kept in the dark about it by MoD chiefs.  As of now, the state controlled BBC website doesn't seem to think that we need know about it.  The RT story - https://www.rt.com/uk/376926-navy-submarine-fleet-action/ - basically quotes The Sun and The Telegraph.

 

I see, incidentally, that Wkipedia, not itself renouned for absolute accuracy, has decided to ban the Daily Mail as a reference citiing the Mail's rputation for poor fact checking and sensationalism.

 

DT

[Legend]

Not good but I can believe it. Yet another symptom of the malaise sweeping through the RN. destroyers that don't work and are poorly armed, Frigates so stretched they are at braking point , a trident test that went wrong, and now no nuclear attack subs.

 

Now any one of these would be bad , but all 4 suggests some deep routed issues. Sure money is partly it but I think we really need some leadership here to get what we have working! After all we spend £32 bn on defence and it doesn't look like we are getting value for money , at least from RN. Someone needs to get a grip

[Torper]

BBC are now reporting it on the 1 o'clock news.

 

DT

[Ohmisterporter]

Via the Save the Royal Navy blog comes another proposal for Type 31 frigate. This comes from Stellar Systems, who seem to believe this option has export potential. Hope this is of interest.

 

 http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/SPARTAN.pdf

Edited February 10, 2017 by Ohmisterporter

[Legend]

BBC are now reporting it on the 1 o'clock news.

 

DT

Makes a change from their obsession with NHS. Yes there's an issue but they seem to major on it for about 15 mins. Getting to the stage I'm even switching off the news now. I've always been a supporter of Aunti Beeb . Given us some great programs over the years, but now seriously questioning the Licence Fee .

[Mike Storey]

Makes a change from their obsession with NHS. Yes there's an issue but they seem to major on it for about 15 mins. Getting to the stage I'm even switching off the news now. I've always been a supporter of Aunti Beeb . Given us some great programs over the years, but now seriously questioning the Licence Fee .

 

I appreciate your point. However, the BBC cannot win. It was accused of being a govt mouthpiece. It was accused of ignoring stories that mattered. It was top lining post-brexit for some months, then Trump for several weeks more, bar the odd terrorist attack or some such. But it was pointed out that the issue of greatest immediate concern, across the population, was actually the NHS and social care. But no-one was doing much other than reporting data. This time it has campaigned through simply presenting what is happening at the coal face. And it worked, given the health secretary's admissions today - the first time he has admitted that things really are as bad as they are. They left no hiding place, and that is good investigative journalism, of the type we have only seen from Channel 4 News in many moons. If a public service broadcaster is not supposed to do that, then I really don't know who will.

 

On the other hand, the piece about the lack of active submarines was very short and passed without comment, which surprised me. Maybe more on Newsnight?

[Legend]

Well as predicted NHS for another 15 mins. No mention of Submarines in 6 or 10 news. Newsnight did have interesting articles on German car makers and Gert Vilders , or whatever the name of the far right Dutchman is.

 

I don't underestimate the importance of the NHS and god knows their staff work miracles every day, but again to major on this and not mention submarines at all to me sums the BBC and I suspect this country up. It no longer takes defence seriously . Until , of course, they need it ........and by then it's too late. , I also suspect this is permeating through the services and what was once a proud profession is largely ignored or at least taken for granted. There is a need for strong leadership .

[The Stationmaster]

Well as predicted NHS for another 15 mins. No mention of Submarines in 6 or 10 news. Newsnight did have interesting articles on German car makers and Gert Vilders , or whatever the name of the far right Dutchman is.

 

I don't underestimate the importance of the NHS and god knows their staff work miracles every day, but again to major on this and not mention submarines at all to me sums the BBC and I suspect this country up. It no longer takes defence seriously . Until , of course, they need it ........and by then it's too late. , I also suspect this is permeating through the services and what was once a proud profession is largely ignored or at least taken for granted. There is a need for strong leadership .

 

The submarines did get a mention, very briefly, on an earlier news bulletin.  The NHS reporting this week on the Beeb does seem to have been somewhat skewed concentrating almost entirely on 'old' people while we were being told only a few months back there are major problems in the maternity area - presumably that has been forgotten because you can't blame it on 'old people'.

 

I saw a consultant last week and we discussed what to do about my condition ( a hernia) - it was decided, for various reasons, not to operate but if the decision had gone the other way I was assured no problem with theatre time, no problem getting a bed, only potential hiccup (reckoned to be minor in my case) would be getting the funding from the CCG; private hospital but everything funded by the NHS, all I did was ask to go to that hospital when I was given the choice.

[jamie92208]

Well as predicted NHS for another 15 mins. No mention of Submarines in 6 or 10 news. Newsnight did have interesting articles on German car makers and Gert Vilders , or whatever the name of the far right Dutchman is.

 

I don't underestimate the importance of the NHS and god knows their staff work miracles every day, but again to major on this and not mention submarines at all to me sums the BBC and I suspect this country up. It no longer takes defence seriously . Until , of course, they need it ........and by then it's too late. , I also suspect this is permeating through the services and what was once a proud profession is largely ignored or at least taken for granted. There is a need for strong leadership .

 

Kipling's famous which I think is called 'Tommy' comes to mind.  It's about how soldiers are reviled in peacetime but loved when war comes.

 

Jamie

[Legend]

This country has always had the highest regard for it's services and believes it's forces are amongst the best in the world. In the case of RN equipment, at least, this is obviously incorrect. But no one gives a damn

[jamie92208]

This country has always had the highest regard for it's services and believes it's forces are amongst the best in the world. In the case of RN equipment, at least, this is obviously incorrect. But no one gives a damn

 

I agree, totally but our politicians don't always support them like they promise to.

 

Jamie

[PhilH]

I note that in at least one of the above posts it's noted that we have 'no nuclear attack subs'. Depending on what is meant by this, the term used can be ambiguous, it could be construed that none of our subs are active.

 

The subs that are the subject of discussion are the Trafalgar and Astute class, 'hunter/ killers'. The Valiant class, the Trident fleet, are supposedly all operational.

[jjb1970]

The effectiveness of the Trident boats depends on the hunter killers which sweep their departure and return routes and track Russian subs trying to tail the missile boats. If we have no hunter killers its a massive degradation in the effectiveness of the nuclear deterrent. And that's without considering all their other tasks.