Steam Tramways - Rural - Great Britain & Ireland

[Pacific231G]

Steam Trams in the Netherlands has been raised, and they did them rather well. Here's a photo I took at the Eurotrack show at Southampton in Feb. 1999. The model is by Mr. F. Saunders of Slough, scale 1:50, gauge 20mm. Okay, the wheels don't go round, although it's mounted on a slowly rotating plinth, and it's a diorama, but I think it's a wonderful piece of railway modelling, marvellously evocative, and something anyone could try. It's called "waiting for the bridge".

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It's based on a painting by Anton Pieck, an artist who specialised in busy, folksy, Old Dutch scenes. Do a "search" and "images" and you're set up with plenty of inspiration for a model scene.

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Thanks Northroader

I can remember seeing Waiting for the Bridge though I don't think it was at Eurotrack that year. It was definitely a work of three dimensional art- should it be classified as a sculpture? 

Edited August 12, 2016 by Pacific231G

[Edwardian]

Louis Napoleon established the Second Empire in 1852 having been President of the Second Republic from 1848 and it's true that buses with an upper deck or "impériale" also appeared in Paris in about 1852. However, references to impériale as an upper or outside seating position are much earlier. It appears in a description of the large diligences that started to appear in 1820."Dans le coupé ou le cabriolet, trois voyageurs peuvent prendre place. L’intérieur offre six places, la rotonde 3 places. Enfin, deux personnes peuvent s’installer sur l’impériale."

I also found a slightly later reference from Balzac, Le Message (1832)

"L'état de ma bourse m'obligeait à voyager sur l'impériale de la diligence." The state of my funds obliged me to travel on the impériale of the diligence.

So the word seems to have always referred to an upper position on a vehicle rather than the vehicle as a whole but I'd like to trace its earlier origins. 

 

I wonder if these diligences were harking back to the road coaches developed for Napoleon I?

 

Oddly the Napoleon cult was not that strong immediately after his death (1821), at least not at the levels to which it rose, culminating in his return and re-internment in Paris, in the early 1840s, if I recall my reading.  But, still, some reflected Napoleonic chic might have been the aim, when seeking to induce passengers to sit up top.  Alternatively, the usage might have been ironic, given the sardonic wit of which the French were once capable in the case of Napoleon ("to lie like a[n Imperial] Bulletin", comes to mind.  

[Andy Kirkham]

My general impression is that rules for street tramways in many countries started out being very strict with nothing showing under the skirts and gradually got more and more relaxed. You only have to compare the Wantage Tramway's original fully enclosed locos with Shannon; presumably the horses weren't quite as terrified as everyone feared. 

Yes indeed. The Glyn Valley Tramway is another example. Their three original locos were completely boxed in, but in the 1920's they acquired a Baldwin with outside Walscherts gear, and as far as I know, nobody complained.

[Andy Kirkham]

And I think also the Clogher Valley and the Castlederg & Victoria Bridge. They both started with decorously skirted locos, but later additions to the fleets ran with their motion brazenly exposed.

[rab]

Sounds far too like a system of apart-height for my liking.

K

Perhaps that's because all the original pictures

were in black and white

[pete_mcfarlane]

I have a vague memory (probably from reading Dr Paterson's book on the line) that the Clogher Valley started out as a tramway and then legally changed itself in to a railway. This enabled it to see through tickets via the Railway Clearing House. 

[Andy Kirkham]

For connoisseurs of the obscure there's one line that's hard to beat, in that it's uncertain to what extent it even actually existed. The line I refer to is the Somersetshire Tramways, and the only place I've seen it mentioned in print is this work by a local history society http://www.abebooks.co.uk/CASTLE-CARY-DURSTON-Story-Railway-LANGMAID/19178197038/bd which I picked up at Railwells ten years ago.

 

The Somersetshire Tramways obtained their act in 1893 to construct a roadside tramway from Castle Cary station to Somerton and the stone quarries of Keinton Mandeville, with branches to Castle Cary town (some way from the station) and Evercreech Junction. It is stated that between six and seven miles were ballasted, with sleepers on the ground and most of the rails delivered; "Debate remains as to whether or not any part of the tramway was ever completed or utilized. There is evidence that indeed there was some usage for a short period in late 1896 to early 1897. The Castle Cary Visitor reported in October 1896 rather cryptically 'that Keinton trams are moving slowly' and a correspondent to The Visitor in June 1985 from Lydford recounted details obtained from a contemporary witness regarding use of pairs of heavy horses to pull wagons from Keinton to Castle Cary station yard along the tramway."

 

In the end the tramway was extinguished by the Great Western because it duplicated that company's new main line from Castle Cary to Durston. No traces of the line remain today.

Edited August 14, 2016 by Andy Kirkham

[Hesperus]

The Tralee and Dingle was supposed to be a tramway with enclosed motion and cabs at the front but the skirts were soon lost and the turntables used to keep the locos running chimney first.  There wasn't a turntable at Castlegregory though so the original branch engine was a Hunslet 0-4-2t with a cab at each end.

[tractionman]

For connoisseurs of the obscure there's one line that's hard to beat, in that it's uncertain to what extent it even actually existed. The line I refer to is the Somersetshire Tramways, and the only place I've seen it mentioned in print is this work by a local history society http://www.abebooks.co.uk/CASTLE-CARY-DURSTON-Story-Railway-LANGMAID/19178197038/bd which I picked up at Railwells ten years ago.

 

The Somersetshire Tramways obtained their act in 1893 to construct a roadside tramway from Castle Cary station to Somerton and the stone quarries of Keinton Mandeville, with branches to Castle Cary town (some way from the station) and Evercreech Junction. It is stated that between six and seven miles were ballasted, with sleepers on the ground and most of the rails delivered; "Debate remains as to whether or not any part of the tramway was ever completed or utilized. There is evidence that indeed there was some usage for a short period in late 1896 to early 1897. The Castle Cary Visitor reported in October 1896 rather cryptically 'that Keinton trams are moving slowly' and a correspondent to The Visitor in June 1985 from Lydford recounted details obtained from a contemporary witness regarding use of pairs of heavy horses to pull wagons from Keinton to Castle Cary station yard along the tramway."

 

In the end the tramway was extinguished by the Great Western because it duplicated that company's new main line from Castle Cary to Durston. No traces of the line remain today.

How intriguing - seeing this got me searching the National Library of Scotland online historic OS maps, and lo:

 

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=14&lat=51.0816&lon=-2.6146&layers=161&b=1

 

on the 1" OS maps for 1885-1903 there is a 'broken' line of a tramway shown alongside the Castle Cary - Somerton road, near East Lydford and Keinton Mandeville.

 

So the lines were down long enough to be surveyed by the OS for the 1 inch map.

 

However, interestingly, the 25" (1892-1905) and 6" (for 1888-1913) scale sheets for the same area do not seem to show any tramway alongside the road here, or indeed for any other part between the Castle Cary - Somerton. Perhaps the surveys for the large-scale sheets came just a bit too early (or too late?) for the new tramway to be shown...?

 

all the best,

 

Keith

Edited August 14, 2016 by Keith Lilley

[tractionman]

 

 

... although there is a wide verge shown on the south side of the road on the 25" map:

 

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=51.0797&lon=-2.5953&layers=168&b=4

 

which coincides with where the 1" map shows the course of the tramway deviating from running on the road to an alignment just off to the side of the road.

 

The wide verge on the 25" is shown as rough land, no tramlines, so perhaps a sign that the lines were removed by the time of the survey?

 

The wide verge still seems to be present looking at the air photos (using the NLS transparency tool).

 

Might be worth a bit of investigative fieldwork.

 

all the best,

 

Keith

[Wickham Green]

     Speaking of tramways and ownership, I always found it odd that the Southern, or even the SECR, didn't take over the Rye and Camber. Given the Southern adopted the L&B, it just seems a bit odd that a narrow gauge railway/tramway wasn't absorbed into the Southern... It's something I might include as a cameo on my eventual layout, an extension from Camber to Blackstone, a distance of around three miles straight along the coast?

 

     The random thoughts I have, eh?

 

- Alex

The L.& B. was deliberately built as a feeder with cross-platform interchange ....... it would have been more than a little tricky to integrate the R.& C. into any sort of system ( at either end ) - and it never had any traffic worth interchanging, anyway ! 

[Adam]

... although there is a wide verge shown on the south side of the road on the 25" map:

 

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=51.0797&lon=-2.5953&layers=168&b=4

 

which coincides with where the 1" map shows the course of the tramway deviating from running on the road to an alignment just off to the side of the road.

 

The wide verge on the 25" is shown as rough land, no tramlines, so perhaps a sign that the lines were removed by the time of the survey?

 

The wide verge still seems to be present looking at the air photos (using the NLS transparency tool).

 

Might be worth a bit of investigative fieldwork.

 

all the best,

 

Keith

 

Very interesting - I was never sure that it had been built at all. Details (and I really do mean detailed details) can be found in the text of the enabling act in the London Gazette (the different numbers relate to the stretches of tramway in individual parishes):

 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/26226/page/6293

 

I like the idea that it might have continued, somewhat in the guise of the Wantage Tramway had loco' working actually occurred. A layout idea for someone, I'm sure.

 

Adam

Edited September 7, 2018 by Adam

[Nearholmer]

Alex

 

Tramways, light railways, and some railways built without the need for parliamentary authority weren’t explicitly included in grouping, and tramways some railways built without the need for parliamentary approval weren’t included in nationalisation either. Some ‘oddities’ did get swept in by virtue of being owned by a company that was grouped, the Immingham ‘tramway’ for instance, although I’m not sure and whether that was legally a tramway or a LR.

 

I’m never sure exactly what the rhymes and reasons were, with the Talyllyn being left out both times (no parliamentary authority, I think), and the RHDR not being nationalised, although I think it was legally a LR, while, just down the road, the KESR was.

 

The R&CT was built on private land, without the need for parliamentary authority, I think. The L&B was, rather excessively, a full and proper railway, not even a LR, so like the VoR, got grouped. The W&L on the other hand was bought by the Cambrian, so got grouped that way. The LMVLR .... blowed if I can remember!

 

Kevin

Edited September 7, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Orion]

The L&B was not included in the Act, but was absorbed by the LSWR immediately before grouping, I think.

[Northroader]

The LMVR was part of the North Stafford, and so joined the LMS because of this. Alex, to answer your question as to why the SR didn’t take over the Rye & Camber, there’s a report you can read for your homework tonight, instead of all that literature. (Although I’m still wanting to know what happens next with Madame Noir and her friends)

The SR had a look at taking over another impecunious line, the West Sussex, which was a better bet than the Rye & Camber, so their general manager wrote a report on the prospect, and gave it a thumbs down, but as an exercise in looking at the affairs of a run down line, it does make an excellent read:https://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/28-topics/other-railways/38-the-selsey-tramway-in-its-last-days

[Nearholmer]

Thinking about it, the VoR probably belonged to the Cambrian by the time of grouping, too.

[NeilHB]

Thinking about it, the VoR probably belonged to the Cambrian by the time of grouping, too.

VoR was taken over in 1913 by the Cambrian.

 

With regards to the R&CT - sometime ago I hypothesised a short extension with some street running to enable an almost cross-platform interchange at Rye station - this may well have done wonders for their prosperity...

[Nearholmer]

Or, worsened it considerably, by saddling them with a capital burden on which to pay dividends or interest.

 

It would be nice to have an English example of one of those ‘forecourt termini’ that rural roadside tramways in France and elsewhere had at ‘main line’ stations, though. I can’t think of one like that in this country, and one outside Rye station would be very nice.

 

PS: maybe Wantage Road qualifies?

Edited September 7, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

Now, this is fascinating http://www.heraldseries.co.uk/news/16069718.Heralding_the_Past__the_tramway_funeral_that_brought_Wantage_to_a_standstill/#gallery1

 

LSWR coaches worked through onto the Wantage Tramway!

[John Isherwood]

There was nearly a narrow gauge roadside steam tramway in Cambridgeshire - the Oakington and Cottenham Light Railway.

 

It received Parliamentary authorisation and the deposited plans are in the Cambridgeshire Archive.

 

It was intended to link the Cottenham Lode, (used for barge navigation from the east coast ports), to the then-new railway from Cambridge to March via Oakington.

 

Unfortunately, the barge traffic waned, and the roads were improved, before the railway could be built.

 

Perhaps as well, though; steam trains running down the centre of Cottenham High Street would have caused chaos with the local horse-drawn traffic, and a terminus / wharf adjacent to the Vicarage would not have gone down well with the local clergy!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Andy Kirkham]

 

It would be nice to have an English example of one of those ‘forecourt termini’ that rural roadside tramways in France and elsewhere had at ‘main line’ stations, though. I can’t think of one like that in this country, and one outside Rye station would be very nice.

 

I think the original narrow gauge terminus at Welshpool would be an example http://search.digido.org.uk/?id=llgc-id%3A1555011&query=*&query_type=full_text&page=606&img_id=2

[Northroader]

Glyn Valley Tram? (Well, it’s only a halfmile outside England)

Edited September 7, 2018 by Northroader

[Andy Kirkham]

I think the original narrow gauge terminus at Welshpool would be an example http://search.digido.org.uk/?id=llgc-id%3A1555011&query=*&query_type=full_text&page=606&img_id=2

Except that it's not English of course

[Nearholmer]

I’ve visited the site of the GVT terminus at Chirk, and its ‘over the back wall’ from the main line, not at all in the station forecourt.

 

The ones I’m enamoured of have a tram-type train drawn up outside the front door of the main station and, ideally, a Brasserie Tramway or Cafe de Gare hard by.

[Northroader]

Yeah, right.. (just got to find a steamer for it)

Edited September 7, 2018 by Northroader