For those who like Aircraft pictures

[jjb1970]

A couple of more unusual spots, a Police C212 and a Royal Thai Air Force C130 visiting the TNI compound which forms part of the airport.

 

[jjb1970]

Taken from the beach at Jimbaran Bay near sunset with my phone so a lousy picture, but it was impressive to see one A380 coming in as the other was waiting to take off.

 

 

[Tumut]

2 hours ago, rob D2 said:

The thing with Boeing is that people have jumped on the bandwagon to beat them with a stick,

but there’s no single cause of their woes 

Hello All, with all due respect, I have to disagree with this comment.

1 / Boeings current woes, especially regarding re 737MAX disaster, to which they have pleaded guilty to criminal fraud, the convenient death of two whistleblowers who were to testify to Congressional Hearings, the ongoing quality and safety failings are the result of deliberate choices by both senior management, and the Board. Not only should all of Boeings Board be sacked, but every one of them should be arranged for criminal negligence causing death, because, both individually, and collectively, they are ultimately responsible for the deaths of 346 people in the 737MAX, which they blamed on pilot error, despite being well aware of the issues affecting the 737MAX Program.

2 / The Ethiopian Airline 737MAX pilot was highly experienced, and Ethiopian was considered to be a very safe airline, in global comparisons, to fly with. The Boeing Board chose to trash Ethiopian's reputation, in effectively calling the pilot incompetent, and denying any issue with the 737MAX, despite their knowledge to the contrary.

3 / If you argue that the Board would not be aware of that level of detail, then that is tantamount to saying the Board is not responsible at all. which, in my view, is totally unacceptable.

4 / Boeing has also had quality control issues with the 757, Boeing's Board also made a conscious decision to outsource to Spirit AeroSystems the former Boeing Wichita Division in Kansas, which the Board chose to spin off as a stock market financial play, and which has subsequently been a major source of quality control failures, and whose products some Boeing customers have refused to take delivery of.  

5 / Boards, and senior managers get very well remumerated, the disgraced Boeing CEO, David Calhoun, got a retirement package approaching $US33m for trashing the company ! These people need to be held to account, and do jail time, for criminal negligence. This is the direct result of alleged "professional managers" that we employ, and grossly over pay these days.

6 / Boeing is now facing multi million dollar lawsuits due to incompetent and criminal management, and it is quite possible that Boeing will fail.

Regards to all, Tumut.

[rob D2]

16 minutes ago, Tumut said:

Hello All, with all due respect, I have to disagree with this comment.

1 / Boeings current woes, especially regarding re 737MAX disaster, to which they have pleaded guilty to criminal fraud, the convenient death of two whistleblowers who were to testify to Congressional Hearings, the ongoing quality and safety failings are the result of deliberate choices by both senior management, and the Board. Not only should all of Boeings Board be sacked, but every one of them should be arranged for criminal negligence causing death, because, both individually, and collectively, they are ultimately responsible for the deaths of 346 people in the 737MAX, which they blamed on pilot error, despite being well aware of the issues affecting the 737MAX Program.

2 / The Ethiopian Airline 737MAX pilot was highly experienced, and Ethiopian was considered to be a very safe airline, in global comparisons, to fly with. The Boeing Board chose to trash Ethiopian's reputation, in effectively calling the pilot incompetent, and denying any issue with the 737MAX, despite their knowledge to the contrary.

3 / If you argue that the Board would not be aware of that level of detail, then that is tantamount to saying the Board is not responsible at all. which, in my view, is totally unacceptable.

4 / Boeing has also had quality control issues with the 757, Boeing's Board also made a conscious decision to outsource to Spirit AeroSystems the former Boeing Wichita Division in Kansas, which the Board chose to spin off as a stock market financial play, and which has subsequently been a major source of quality control failures, and whose products some Boeing customers have refused to take delivery of.  

5 / Boards, and senior managers get very well remumerated, the disgraced Boeing CEO, David Calhoun, got a retirement package approaching $US33m for trashing the company ! These people need to be held to account, and do jail time, for criminal negligence. This is the direct result of alleged "professional managers" that we employ, and grossly over pay these days.

6 / Boeing is now facing multi million dollar lawsuits due to incompetent and criminal management, and it is quite possible that Boeing will fail.

Regards to all, Tumut.

Thats a bit simplistic .

As for the MAX crashes, do you understand the MCAS system and if so do you know what briefings, guidance was provided to the crews flying the max ? Because if you don't you are not in full view of the facts .

 

The 757 hasn’t been built for years so I’m not sure what sort of quality control issues you are refereeing too. If you are talking about wheels falling off , could simply be age, fatigue or the current maintainers or line maintenance which is often outsourced .

[Jeff Smith]

A contributing factor in the Max 8 crashes was the agreement between Boeing and the FAA to certify the aircraft as a B737 derivative, whereas with the newer heavier engines and related systems it probably should have had a new type certificate.

[rob D2]

11 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

A contributing factor in the Max 8 crashes was the agreement between Boeing and the FAA to certify the aircraft as a B737 derivative, whereas with the newer heavier engines and related systems it probably should have had a new type certificate.

They’d never do it, the reason it was never redesigned was that SW wanted the 737 series to be kept as one TR, so they didn’t have to pay for extra sim training . All about cost.

 

Otherwise Boeing would have designed a new aircraft to compete with the A320 series which has rather eclipsed it since  - and they could have finally got rid of that 1960s overhead panel !

 

The max is basically a mongrel . Despite a Boeing global engagement pilot trying to brow beat  me otherwise 

[Tumut]

Hello All, 1 / with respect to MCAS, it was not documented to the pilots, which was a deliberate choice by Boeing management as Delta wanted a larger 737 without the need to retrain its pilots, hence MCAS was a way of ensuring the 737MAX appeared, and felt, like earlier 737 versions.

2 / The 737MAX is larger, has bigger engines, and a different CofG compared to previous 737 models, and MCAS was a software implementation to ensure the 737MAX replicated the feel of earlier 737 Models.

3 / Nice idea, would save an airline $ms in additional training, BUT, Boeing Test Pilots found that theory not to be true in practice, and there were other handling issues as well. Presumably, a number of those issues were resolved, but the decision to NOT document MCAS meant that the pilots of both the Lion Air, and Ethiopian, 737MAXs were unaware that MCAS even existed, so when they lost control, the normal, and previously documented response did not work because the undocumented MCAS over rode their responses, and the planes crashed, and 346 people died.

4 / It was only documented after the 737MAX crashes, and after the 737MAXs were grounded in the interim. This would cost the operators of the 737MAX $USms, and delay new deliveries by 18 months, and which Boeing is still trying to catch up with.

5 / I get it that MCAS is intended to make the flying of all 737 models seamless, important when you are replacing your fleet on a like for like basis. Not only did this appeal to Delta, but Southwest Airlines, who only fly 737s, bought 100 x 737MAXs, the largest operator of that model. 

6 / Jeff Smith's comments re the FAA above are also relevant, and I agree with.

7 / Wheels falling off are not restricted to Boeing, for the reasons above outlined.

8 / Ultimately, Boeing management and Board made deliberate decisions that caused 346 people to die, and these deaths were not an Act of God, or misadventure, but criminal negligence. No matter what excuses, and crocodile tears, and faux apologies that Boeing management make, their decisions, despite continual warnings and advice, lead to 346 people losing their lives, and they should be held accountable for that.

Regards to all, Tumut.

[Jeff Smith]

As far as I am aware Delta has not ordered any Max 8s.

 

Tyres and brakes are the most maintenance heavy items on airliners.  No excuse for any falling off though.....

[rob D2]

2 hours ago, Tumut said:

Hello All, 1 / with respect to MCAS, it was not documented to the pilots, which was a deliberate choice by Boeing management as Delta wanted a larger 737 without the need to retrain its pilots, hence MCAS was a way of ensuring the 737MAX appeared, and felt, like earlier 737 versions.

2 / The 737MAX is larger, has bigger engines, and a different CofG compared to previous 737 models, and MCAS was a software implementation to ensure the 737MAX replicated the feel of earlier 737 Models.

3 / Nice idea, would save an airline $ms in additional training, BUT, Boeing Test Pilots found that theory not to be true in practice, and there were other handling issues as well. Presumably, a number of those issues were resolved, but the decision to NOT document MCAS meant that the pilots of both the Lion Air, and Ethiopian, 737MAXs were unaware that MCAS even existed, so when they lost control, the normal, and previously documented response did not work because the undocumented MCAS over rode their responses, and the planes crashed, and 346 people died.

4 / It was only documented after the 737MAX crashes, and after the 737MAXs were grounded in the interim. This would cost the operators of the 737MAX $USms, and delay new deliveries by 18 months, and which Boeing is still trying to catch up with.

5 / I get it that MCAS is intended to make the flying of all 737 models seamless, important when you are replacing your fleet on a like for like basis. Not only did this appeal to Delta, but Southwest Airlines, who only fly 737s, bought 100 x 737MAXs, the largest operator of that model. 

6 / Jeff Smith's comments re the FAA above are also relevant, and I agree with.

7 / Wheels falling off are not restricted to Boeing, for the reasons above outlined.

8 / Ultimately, Boeing management and Board made deliberate decisions that caused 346 people to die, and these deaths were not an Act of God, or misadventure, but criminal negligence. No matter what excuses, and crocodile tears, and faux apologies that Boeing management make, their decisions, despite continual warnings and advice, lead to 346 people losing their lives, and they should be held accountable for that.

Regards to all, Tumut.

You are preaching to the choir here.

we’ll never actually know what was told or briefed, these are all second  hand sources you are quoting .

i was assured the aircraft was recoverable in both cases .

[J. S. Bach]

12 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Another Boeing with bits falling off?

https://hotair.com/jazz-shaw/2024/07/09/another-united-airlines-flight-loses-a-wheel-in-mid-air-n3791566

Unless this was its first United flight, I would assign some of the problems to United's maintenance/inspection.  

[jjb1970]

I find what has happened to Boeing properly sad. The company that made aviation icons like the B707 (generally agreed to be the true father of the jet era despite the British and USSR getting their before the US), B727, B737 (the MAX travails shouldn't obscure just what an important and successful aircraft the 737 has been up to the MAX) and the mighty 747 which redefined air travel almost as much as the jet did. Two of my favourite modern era airliners are the 787 and 777.

 

Now they're a clown show, it's not just the MAX tragedies, they've been lurching from embarrassment to embarrassment with 787 production and quality control and the 777X is running way late. I won't make an issue as their military programs as in fairness military procurement is riven with cost over runs, delays and pork barrel politics pretty much everywhere.

 

The thing I still can't forgive Boeing for is that following the MAX incidents you didn't have to read between many lines in their post incident damage control stuff to get the message that if an American or white person had been in the cockpit the aircraft wouldn't have crashed. I found (and still find) that despicable, especially given all the subsequent revelations.

[Ozexpatriate]

32 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I won't make an issue as their military programs as in fairness military procurement is riven with cost over runs, delays and pork barrel politics pretty much everywhere.

BCA (Commercial Aircraft) is almost like a different company than BDS (Defense, Space and Security).

 

Yes they have the same Board* but operationally down to the engineering BCA is completely separate culturally from BDS.

 

* And much is legitimately made of former McDonnell Douglas executives taking over the C-suite at Boeing.

 

I know many people who sell engineering design solutions to "Boeing". They are more successful at BDS. BCA has a well-earned reputation for "sheet metal" - less so for other aspects of design - which is congruent with the tragic MAX 9 story.

 

BDS (which is made up of many acquisitions, including one I tangentially worked for half a lifetime ago) has a much different engineering culture.

[rob D2]

Yes, that was an interesting line to attack on .

 

There are some seriously dubious airlines in the world , but AFAIK Ethiopian is one of the best in terms of standards in their continent . And it’s not just a developing world thing , there’s 2 airlines in Europe I’d give a swerve to ( not counting , the whole of Russia )

 

The max thing begins with a single source of failure . IIRC mcas triggered on input from one AoA vane , a single source of failure . In aviation generally 2 things have to agree for similar systems .

[Jeff Smith]

If two values disagree it usually requires a third source (even if derived) to determine which is likely to be wrong.

[PMP]

16 hours ago, J. S. Bach said:

Unless this was its first United flight, I would assign some of the problems to United's maintenance/inspection.  

Not to mention they’re not Boeing manufactured components. As it’s a 757 even if it’s the most recent one built, it’s taken twenty years for the wheel to fall off. 🙃

[Jeff Smith]

As an aside, I just had my first MAX 8 flight on Westjet (ATL-YWG).  The printed safety card just said B737-800/-8).  A nice flight although a little cramped in economy.  What surprised me most was my Coke had no ice……

[St Enodoc]

9 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

If two values disagree it usually requires a third source (even if derived) to determine which is likely to be wrong.

... which can often be the human in the driver's seat.

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, PMP said:

Not to mention they’re not Boeing manufactured components. As it’s a 757 even if it’s the most recent one built, it’s taken twenty years for the wheel to fall off. 🙃

But not for it to have been removed intentionally. In cases like this, my first thought is "maintenance-induced failure".

[Ozexpatriate]

On 10/07/2024 at 17:43, J. S. Bach said:

Unless this was its first United flight, I would assign some of the problems to United's maintenance/inspection.  

An American Airlines 737-800 headed from Tampa to Phoenix blew multiple tyres on takeoff roll and aborted takeoff today.

 

CNN: Watch: Boeing plane aborts takeoff after multiple blown tires

 

It's cheesy to have the headline be "Boeing plane" rather than "American Airlines"

[jjb1970]

The fickleness of the media, who can flip on a dime and promote narratives very effectively. 

 

I have already expressed my disappointment at the current state of Boeing, but airlines are responsible for safe operation and maintenance after delivery. I think Boeing deserve all the opprobrium they've been receiving over the MAX tragedies, 787 QC issues etc but the way some parts of the media are just piling in to kick them over anything is rather distasteful and begs the question of why (I am not actually asking that to solicit answers).

 

We see it everywhere. Even in our own hobby. There's a manufacturer of British OO models which I do not particularly like, but I also dislike the tribe mentality to look for reasons to attack them.

[Jeff Smith]

14 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

If two values disagree it usually requires a third source (even if derived) to determine which is likely to be wrong.

 

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

... which can often be the human in the driver's seat.

Well that could be subjective.  In engine controls, which I know something about, the s/w sometimes needs to decide in milliseconds to save the engine and possibly the aircraft....

[PMP]

7 hours ago, Ozexpatriate said:

 

 

It's cheesy to have the headline be "Boeing plane" rather than "American Airlines"

I’d suggest it’s clickbait, rather than cheesy. Having been around a bit there are other issues from other manufacturers that have been serious, it’s just in todays media environment it’s way easier to generate a Boeing pile on than for another manufacturer!

[rob D2]

11 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

As an aside, I just had my first MAX 8 flight on Westjet (ATL-YWG).  The printed safety card just said B737-800/-8).  A nice flight although a little cramped in economy.  What surprised me most was my Coke had no ice……

Ryanair were calling this thing simply “ the game changer “. And I think there’s were 737-800-8 and -10 or similar .

 

Desperate to avoid the word MAX as a large % associate that with carnage 

[jjb1970]

Something I find interesting in Asia is the number of companies with both the 737 and A320 family, contrary to conventional wisdom that mixed fleets are a terrible idea. 

 

The Chinese airlines are probably the most obvious examples, the big three (Air China, China Eastern and China Southern) have mixed fleets, as does Shenzhen. Made more complicated by also buying the COMAC C919. 

 

In the case of China a higher than average degree of politics may be involved, but Batik of Indonesia have a mixed fleet, as do ANA and Korean Air.

 

Although Garuda Indonesia and Singapore Airlines are homogenous, both have split their fleets if considering their mainline operations and LCC ops (Citilink and Scoot respectively).

 

This is just off the top of my head.

[Ron Ron Ron]

12 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Something I find interesting in Asia is the number of companies with both the 737 and A320 family, contrary to conventional wisdom that mixed fleets are a terrible idea…….. 

 

 

 
The large American carriers also have mixed fleets of B737 & A320 family aircraft.

American, Delta and United all have a couple of hundred of both of those types, from both manufacturers.

 

 

.

Edited July 12 by Ron Ron Ron