For those who like old Motorcycles.

[Northmoor]

Spotted in Bournemouth yesterday, in an antiques shop (my daughter bought a lamp for a quid - it was worth that for the bulb), a BSA 125 restoration project for £1995.  I'm no expert but it looked complete and the label said it had compression.  Seemed like a good value project for someone; it's in Foley's Antiques on Wimborne Road.  The usual disclaimer, I was just impressed to find an antiques dealer/secondhand shop that didn't charge inflated prices for everything.

[MrWolf]

There's a lot of early BSA Bantams out there for sale at similar prices, there's a lot on eBay being broken up, (Kind of unbelievable these days, but it's all about money!) whether or not they're actually selling is a different matter.

 

The problem is that they can be as expensive to restore properly as a big bike.

If I were looking at it, my mental accountant would be reminding me that getting the wheels rebuilt is likely to be a good £600. You can also bank on an engine rebuild, magneto rebuild (the bike in question evidently doesn't run), wheel bearings, head races, battery, wiring loom, brake, clutch and throttle cables, gearbox bearings and seals, sprockets and chains, clutch, carburettor rebuild, tyres and tubes etc.

 

That's before you get into welding, chrome, powder coating and paint.

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Spotted in Bournemouth yesterday, in an antiques shop (my daughter bought a lamp for a quid - it was worth that for the bulb), a BSA 125 restoration project for £1995.  I'm no expert but it looked complete and the label said it had compression.  Seemed like a good value project for someone; it's in Foley's Antiques on Wimborne Road.  The usual disclaimer, I was just impressed to find an antiques dealer/secondhand shop that didn't charge inflated prices for everything.

Whether a D1 is worth that much depends on how much of a "restoration project: it constitutes!

 

Finished ones can be got from around the £2,800 level.

 

There are still loads about, especially the plunger frame sort. If I wanted one, I'd be looking at signficantly under a grand for openers.

[Dunsignalling]

11 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

There's a lot of early BSA Bantams out there for sale at similar prices, there's a lot on eBay being broken up, (Kind of unbelievable these days, but it's all about money!) whether or not they're actually selling is a different matter.

 

The problem is that they can be as expensive to restore properly as a big bike.

If I were looking at it, my mental accountant would be reminding me that getting the wheels rebuilt is likely to be a good £600. You can also bank on an engine rebuild, magneto rebuild (the bike in question evidently doesn't run), wheel bearings, head races, battery, wiring loom, brake, clutch and throttle cables, gearbox bearings and seals, sprockets and chains, clutch, carburettor rebuild, tyres and tubes etc.

 

That's before you get into welding, chrome, powder coating and paint.

 

 

And you still wind up with something that will just about scrape 50mph downhill!

 

I know, I had one as my first bike. I paid four quid for it repainted it with Brushing Enamel and sold it on for £15 when I got a C15 a year later.

[PupCam]

On 05/09/2024 at 05:29, rockershovel said:

I haven't seen one of those in years. 

 

It was quite "the thing" at one time - see also the Wooler "Flying Banana". The 1970s MZs must have been the last gasp of the fashion. 

 

 

I think I would prefer a Wooler over the FB anytime.   By a country mile .....

 

 

42 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

There's a lot of early BSA Bantams out there for sale at similar prices, there's a lot on eBay being broken up, (Kind of unbelievable these days, but it's all about money!) whether or not they're actually selling is a different matter.

 

The problem is that they can be as expensive to restore properly as a big bike.

If I were looking at it, my mental accountant would be reminding me that getting the wheels rebuilt is likely to be a good £600. You can also bank on an engine rebuild, magneto rebuild (the bike in question evidently doesn't run), wheel bearings, head races, battery, wiring loom, brake, clutch and throttle cables, gearbox bearings and seals, sprockets and chains, clutch, carburettor rebuild, tyres and tubes etc.

 

That's before you get into welding, chrome, powder coating and paint.

 

 

 

Precisely what I paid for the Beeza wheels with painted spokes and rim centre a few years back and (I'd like to think) they were done at mate's rates.

 

In general we are told, and from my patchy intermittent observations it appears to be true, that prices in general are falling.  There are of course examples bucking the trend but, in general, prices have been dropping for a while (ask a Bear).

 

As is often said; for most people to make a small fortune out of restoring classic vehicles, start with a large one.    Making money is not the reason to do it usually.

 

 

[MrWolf]

2 minutes ago, PupCam said:

 

 

I think I would prefer a Wooler over the FB anytime.   By a country mile .....

 

 

 

Precisely what I paid for the Beeza wheels with painted spokes and rim centre a few years back and (I'd like to think) they were done at mate's rates.

 

I'm also thinking of the price as being at mate's rates! 

 

2 minutes ago, PupCam said:

 

In general we are told, and from my patchy intermittent observations it appears to be true, that prices in general are falling.  There are of course examples bucking the trend but, in general, prices have been dropping for a while (ask a Bear).

 

I think that the hoarding of bikes as an investment / pension fund is thankfully coming to an end, as is the trend of having them as ornaments and the posers are realising that old bikes mean getting your hands dirty.

 

Plus everyone seems to want electric starters, something that has affected values in the vintage tractor scene for the last thirty years.

 

2 minutes ago, PupCam said:

As is often said; for most people to make a small fortune out of restoring classic vehicles, start with a large one.    Making money is not the reason to do it usually.

 

 

 

Money certainly isn't the reason, unless you're restoring on comission and even then, a lot of customers think that they will make a profit. 

Which is why you see so many bikes for sale, as "just professionally restored", "4 miles only", £1000s in bills" etc.

Probably why when I restore a bike for myself, I generally start with a pile of bits, because I know that everything has been done.

Our Speed Twin has been very nicely restored by a previous owner, except it had a home made wiring loom that was basically junk. Someone had spent hours cobbling it together to save about £60.

Same problem with the BSA Star Twin. Also on that, a new rear sprocket had been fitted, but they reused the old bearing. That lasted about 5 minutes.

[MrWolf]

I do like obscure bikes like that Wooler "flying banana", but given a choice, I'd be after a Wooler Four.

 

 

There was some really clever engineering going on with that bike.

 

[PupCam]

9 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

Our Speed Twin has been very nicely restored by a previous owner, except it had a home made wiring loom that was basically junk. Someone had spent hours cobbling it together to save about £60.

Same problem with the BSA Star Twin.

 

My Beeza has an entirely new wiring loom hand made by a certain Mr. Puppers.   

 

I like to think it is approaching if not up to Mil Spec including, for example, the sleeving boots where the loom splits at various locations.  It's certainly more robust than the OEM version and there's not a single inch of insulating tape anywhere on the machine.    At least everything works although to be fair, "everything" isn't a lot on  a 1939 machine!

 

[Northmoor]

55 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

I think that the hoarding of bikes as an investment / pension fund is thankfully coming to an end, as is the trend of having them as ornaments and the posers are realising that old bikes mean getting your hands dirty.

<Round of Applause>

 

I also think that lots of project bikes were bought during the pandemic with the owner's deluded expectation that they would have huge amounts of free time now that they'd be working from home for ever.  Whoops.  Those have now been given an ultimatum by the other resident of the house, "Either finish off that bike or sell it!".

 

I am also not sympathetic to more than a few classic dealers; many will go out of business but since a lot of what I see for sale seems to have be of the "Bought for £2k, spent a day cleaning it thoroughly, gave it an MOT from a friendly garage who'd leave the advisories box blank and listed it for £5k" variety.  It's why I am 95% sure that my next bike will come from a private seller; I know I'll have to work on it anyway so might as well save myself a grand.

[MrWolf]

1 hour ago, PupCam said:

 

My Beeza has an entirely new wiring loom hand made by a certain Mr. Puppers.   

 

I like to think it is approaching if not up to Mil Spec including, for example, the sleeving boots where the loom splits at various locations.  It's certainly more robust than the OEM version and there's not a single inch of insulating tape anywhere on the machine.    At least everything works although to be fair, "everything" isn't a lot on  a 1939 machine!

 

 

I have done much the same with the lightweight bikes I've rebuilt from the makers such as James and Excelsior, as you can't buy a loom at all. No brightly coloured crimp connectors thank you!

When you don't have much power available, especially a flywheel mag generator and direct lighting, you can't just use any wire that's handy either.

 

 

[MrWolf]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

And you still wind up with something that will just about scrape 50mph downhill!

 

I know, I had one as my first bike. I paid four quid for it repainted it with Brushing Enamel and sold it on for £15 when I got a C15 a year later.

 

As a teenager, at a time when my peers were selling their souls to buy ER125s etc on HP, I bought a D14 Sports for £20. I got the two tea chests it was in for free! 

Allegedly, it would do 65mph, it did, but only in short bursts...

It got replaced with a 1948 Panther 350 which I still regret selling. Price? £15 and a WW1 German bayonet. The person I got it from was given it for a field bike, but couldn't start it.

 

Not long after, we had the first of the classic bike 'booms' and everything went silly.

 

Pretty bike!

 

vintagebike.co.uk

 

 

 

Edited September 8 by MrWolf
Picture credit

[PupCam]

14 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

 

As a teenager, at a time when my peers were selling their souls to buy ER125s etc on HP, I bought a D14 Sports for £20. I got the two tea chests it was in for free! 

Allegedly, it would do 65mph, it did, but only in short bursts...

It got replaced with a 1948 Panther 350 which I still regret selling. Price? £15 and a WW1 German bayonet. The person I got it from was given it for a field bike, but couldn't start it.

 

Not long after, we had the first of the classic bike 'booms' and everything went silly.

 

Pretty bike!

 

vintagebike.co.uk

 

 

 

 

I do like a Panther but the long stroke big ones can be tricky to start!

 

 

 

[MrWolf]

42 minutes ago, PupCam said:

 

I do like a Panther but the long stroke big ones can be tricky to start!

 

 

 

 

I think the main problem is that they will still start and run, (Often with herculean effort) when they're absolutely worn out.

Mine had a busted kickstart spring. I initially got mine going by fixing a length of bicycle inner tube between the kickstart and the saddle lug.

I had to pay something like £4 for a new spring, a sum which would have bought you sixty cigarettes at the time!

[rockershovel]

9 hours ago, MrWolf said:

I do like obscure bikes like that Wooler "flying banana", but given a choice, I'd be after a Wooler Four.

 

 

There was some really clever engineering going on with that bike.

 

I always thought it was a pity that BSA didn't buy the design instead of messing around with the Sunbeam S7 and S8, which never went properly 

 

I've ridden a Douglas flat twin and it was a very nice bike, if a bit gutless 

 

I will say that the chassis parts look seriously deficient. 

[Kickstart]

13 hours ago, PupCam said:

In general we are told, and from my patchy intermittent observations it appears to be true, that prices in general are falling.  There are of course examples bucking the trend but, in general, prices have been dropping for a while (ask a Bear).

 

As is often said; for most people to make a small fortune out of restoring classic vehicles, start with a large one.    Making money is not the reason to do it usually.

 

Prices are certainly falling in the bikes I tend to follow. The late sports 2 strokes had certainly gone up a lot, but have dropped over the last year (eg, prices for the RD350F2 started at about £6k for a usable one at their peak - now start at about £5k or possibly a bit less)

 

11 hours ago, Northmoor said:

<Round of Applause>

 

I also think that lots of project bikes were bought during the pandemic with the owner's deluded expectation that they would have huge amounts of free time now that they'd be working from home for ever.  Whoops.  Those have now been given an ultimatum by the other resident of the house, "Either finish off that bike or sell it!".

 

I am also not sympathetic to more than a few classic dealers; many will go out of business but since a lot of what I see for sale seems to have be of the "Bought for £2k, spent a day cleaning it thoroughly, gave it an MOT from a friendly garage who'd leave the advisories box blank and listed it for £5k" variety.  It's why I am 95% sure that my next bike will come from a private seller; I know I'll have to work on it anyway so might as well save myself a grand.

 

I suspect for the Pandemic a lot was down to people wanting something they could pass the time working on while locked down - and they probably got a lot less done than they expected (or found out the prices of some parts!)

 

Your point on classic dealers and the like rings true. Too often various TV shows have things being bought cheap, bodged up and sold for an inflated price (not just bikes - houses, cars, furniture, etc). It grates somewhat.

 

The FZR I worked on made zero financial sense to fix up.

 

11 hours ago, MrWolf said:

 

I have done much the same with the lightweight bikes I've rebuilt from the makers such as James and Excelsior, as you can't buy a loom at all. No brightly coloured crimp connectors thank you!

 

The blue, red or yellow crimp connectors to me just scream "bodge"! I know they can work well, but that is when they are used in the right place and the right tools used to fit them - but this is rarely the case. I have a case of them at home but virtually never use them beyond when knocking up a quick prototype of a circuit. Most of the time I use the non insulated connectors, with an insulated boot over it. Even most block connectors can now be sourced.

 

I have made simple looms, and electrics don't scare me so much these days (18 months ago we made a loom for a friends TZR250 race bike, so we could remove all the unnecessary circuits which could otherwise cause problems, then a loom for their XT500 with 12V conversion and electronic ignition). I wouldn't say I am good but I can cope.

 

I am surprised how well the loom on the FZ750 has survived. Very minimal repairs needed

 

All the best

 

Katy

[polybear]

[MrWolf]

4 hours ago, rockershovel said:

I always thought it was a pity that BSA didn't buy the design instead of messing around with the Sunbeam S7 and S8, which never went properly 

 

The S7 really flew in prototype form, just like a Sunbeam should but BSA cut corners with the differential, using a worm and wheel like it was a tractor from about 1918. 

With the engine in original form, the gears lasted about ten minutes, so the development shop built a differential using the hypoid crown wheel and pinion from a Morris Eight, problem solved.

Unfortunately the bean counters refused it, (Shades of the original OHC A7, which could have pushed the industry forward thirty years!) so that engine was detuned to the point that it was no quicker than a B31 but nearly as heavy as a modern bike.

 

That said, I'd like an S7, just for the looks, but I think they're hugely overpriced having ridden one. 

 

The S8 I just don't get, it's like an A7 with an out of proportion engine that couldn't pull your hat off.

 

We did of course get the BMW inspired plunger suspension for the A, B and M series and a scaled down version for the C and D which is actually pretty good for the time.

Unfortunately for those of us restoring BSA bikes of the era, any parts for that suspension are Sunbeam money! 

 

4 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

I've ridden a Douglas flat twin and it was a very nice bike, if a bit gutless 

 

I had the same impression riding a Douglas Dragonfly, it handled beautifully, close to Norton Dominator standards, but the performance was on a par with any other cooking 350, possibly less.

 

4 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

I will say that the chassis parts look seriously deficient. 

 

Original versions had four plunger columns and double forks, that's a later version from about 1950 but that back end looks like it wouldn't support a 98cc Villiers powered lightweight. The very last had a much improved swing arm rear end. I suspect that if Wooler hadn't died in '56 he would have taken his ideas much further.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 9 by MrWolf
Picture

[rockershovel]

The original S7 also had severe vibration issues, resulting in the rubber mounted engine. BMW, MotoGuzzi and Indian all correctly identified that a flat, or 90 deg v engine was much better suited to a longitudinal mounting because it enabled the crank to be higher and thus, the rear transmission geometry was easier to resolve. 

 

Wooler seems to have been something of an Edward Turner. His designs were very eye-catching but needed the discipline of the Drawing Office before they could be actually produced and sold. 

 

I dont reckon routing the exhaust through the frame was a recipe for success...

 

Edited September 9 by rockershovel

[big jim]

Some from Hinckley car show today 

 

apologies I know nothing about the bikes in questions (but I do know a Ducati’s 996 is nice!) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Sunday at 17:52 by big jim

[rockershovel]

I worked somewhere that had a fleet of Sinclair C5s for scooting around the warehouse. Very handy in some ways. 

 

The one-piece moulded body was very advanced for the time. So much so, that I suspect the actual vehicle was primarily a publicity stunt to promote it. 

 

It was ludicrous to ride? Drive? .... the control system was quite clever as well. 

[Kickstart]

13 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

I worked somewhere that had a fleet of Sinclair C5s for scooting around the warehouse. Very handy in some ways. 

 

The one-piece moulded body was very advanced for the time. So much so, that I suspect the actual vehicle was primarily a publicity stunt to promote it. 

 

It was ludicrous to ride? Drive? .... the control system was quite clever as well. 

 

If I had the space I would be tempted with one now. Modern battery tech and the range would be OK

 

All the best

 

Katy

[rockershovel]

2 hours ago, Kickstart said:

 

If I had the space I would be tempted with one now. Modern battery tech and the range would be OK

 

All the best

 

Katy

The original company produced prototypes of 2 and 3 seater "Town cars", basically updated electric bubblecars

[MrWolf]

I've only ever seen a Sinclair C5 on the road once. It would have been about 1985 on a school trip to London. 

Amongst the buses and taxis outside the design museum appeared this madman on a motorised bedpan, fitted with tank ariels topped with big orange pennants in the hope of not being run over.

[MrWolf]

The little Itom is quite a rarity, I think it would be a lot of fun to ride.

One of my friends had a Lambretta in full carnival ride mode. He had a car battery strapped to the footboard to power the lights and horns because if he switched them on they overwhelmed the poor scooter's charging system, causing it to stall.

 

There's a little maroon BSA C11G from about 1954 with its then state of the art alternator squeezed amongst the big modern bikes.

 

The little red moped I'm pretty sure is a 1964 Mobylette, possibly an AV89.

[polybear]

I spot a Suzy X5 or X7 in there; any ideas what the yellow faired number with No. 1's attached is?