For those who like old Motorcycles.

[MrWolf]

I have unfortunately been on the spot when someone has applied JIT and lean manufacturing to a company that made machinery for a global, but relatively small market and tailored individual machines to the specific customers requirements using a range of standard parts. Seventy percent of the parts were manufactured / machined in house, the rest bought from places as varied as Italy (motors) , Switzerland (hydraulic solenoids) and Mexico (electronics) . It was all very well working to just in time until lead times changed, specifications changed or someone forgot that some countries go on holiday for a month in summer and again at Christmas. Then the UK based supplier of castings went belly up. Oops. 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by MrWolf
Stupid autocorrect

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, MrWolf said:

I have unfortunately been on the spot when someone has applied JIT and lean manufacturing to a company that made machinery for a global, but relatively small market and tailored individual machines to the specific customers requirements using a range of standard parts. Seventy percent of the parts were manufactured / machined in house, the rest bought from places as varied as Italy (motors) , Switzerland (hydraulic solenoids) and Mexico (electronics) . It was all very well working to just in time until lead times changed, specifications changed or someone forgot that some countries go on holiday for a month in summer and again at Christmas. Then the UK based supplier of castings went belly up. Oops. 

 

 

 

Well, yes. It works fine for a company like Honda, who are big enough to drive the supplier market, and produce standard designs for dealer stock. Honda just switch orders between suppliers as demand varies, and accommodate over-production by varying projected output. They know that (1) any supplier who can, wants their business (2) they can sell anything they produce, so they get the benefits. 

[PatB]

OTOH, it can be as unwise, from a business point of view, to give the engineers and entgusiasts free rein, as the bean counters (and that's speaking as a former engineer and long time enthusiast). It's notable that assorted attempts to revive the British motorcycle industry (such as Hesketh, Oasis, maybe Norton rotaries, though there were other problems there) were driven by people who wanted to make motorcycles. Often the very particular motorcycles that noone else wanted or could afford. Then John Bloor came along;a man who didn't especially want to make motorcycles, but who was very keen on making money, and put together a company capable of assimilating the progress the Japanese had made over the previous couple of decades, developing a fairly clever modular concept, and marketing it to people who wanted modern bikes with a Union Jack on. 

 

If course, they're all made in Thailand now, and all anyone buys seems to be variations on the new (if that applies after 20+years) Bonneville, but there ya go. 

[MrWolf]

I think that you had hit the nail on the head at "Often the very particular motorcycles that no-one else wanted or could afford". Quite why nobody has had a sideways look at the competition and built a range of motorcycles 50-1000cc that people could afford and then stick with, which was a lesson that should have been learnt by 1968 I will never know.

Of course it doesn't help that the British government is anti motorcycle, anti motorcycling and anti motorcyclist and has been for a good half century.

People in cars pay out more and are easier to control. That suits the folks in charge, regardless of their political stance.

[rockershovel]

7 hours ago, PatB said:

OTOH, it can be as unwise, from a business point of view, to give the engineers and entgusiasts free rein, as the bean counters (and that's speaking as a former engineer and long time enthusiast). It's notable that assorted attempts to revive the British motorcycle industry (such as Hesketh, Oasis, maybe Norton rotaries, though there were other problems there) were driven by people who wanted to make motorcycles. Often the very particular motorcycles that noone else wanted or could afford. Then John Bloor came along;a man who didn't especially want to make motorcycles, but who was very keen on making money, and put together a company capable of assimilating the progress the Japanese had made over the previous couple of decades, developing a fairly clever modular concept, and marketing it to people who wanted modern bikes with a Union Jack on. 

 

If course, they're all made in Thailand now, and all anyone buys seems to be variations on the new (if that applies after 20+years) Bonneville, but there ya go. 

 

Again, you identify a key problem without acknowledging it. The fundamental flaw in British management practice, is that they don’t understand the concept of making a profit by producing a superior product at the right price. BMW are a classic example, not cheap but well engineered and good value. There is a fundamental problem, by which companies are managed by financial controllers who do not sufficiently understand their products. They have the whip hand, and they aren’t about to let go. 

 

Giving the engineers a free hand rarely ends well, because most of them don’t understand the concept and tend to confuse innovation with sound practice. Add in the “concept engineers” like Edward Turner, who could produce highly successful innovations on rare occasions, and there you go... it’s often forgotten that ET also designed the Ariel Square Four. 

 

Interestingly enough, the Italians understand the concept of the lightweight, and medium weight motorcycle very well. Look at the original Ducati Monster, or the present Ducati Scrambler range; KTM also produce those rather spiffy 390cc road bikes. 

 

Triumph and BSA never really understood the concept of making a good lightweight motorcycle for the modern age. The current iteration of Triumph seem to be going down the same path. They actually have a rather good three-cylinder modern sport bike, the Daytona, but it can’t generate the sales volume against the Japanese competition, or command the price premium of the Italian machines. If you’re going to play that game, you need a modern racing heritage and/or very high volumes. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by rockershovel

[PatB]

6 hours ago, MrWolf said:

I think that you had hit the nail on the head at "Often the very particular motorcycles that no-one else wanted or could afford". Quite why nobody has had a sideways look at the competition and built a range of motorcycles 50-1000cc that people could afford and then stick with, which was a lesson that should have been learnt by 1968 I will never know.

Of course it doesn't help that the British government is anti motorcycle, anti motorcycling and anti motorcyclist and has been for a good half century.

People in cars pay out more and are easier to control. That suits the folks in charge, regardless of their political stance.

If you think the Brits are anti-bike, you need to meet some of those in power in Oz. The UK is a positive utopia of 2-wheeled laissez-faire by comparison.

[Kickstart]

A large factor seems to be whether the brand is in fashion. BMW I am not sure I would call well engineered, with pretty major issues with the S1000. The Japanese makers got away with all sorts of issues in the 1980s (ultra short lived charging systems on Suzuki’s, Honda cam chains, etc) and Honda regulator / rectifier failures in more recent years haven’t really damaged their reputation. Not so much these problems I am commenting on, rather that their reputations largely survived these issues.

 

All the best

 

Katy

[MrWolf]

I suspect that as the British did in the 1950s world market, the big four Japanese brands still don't have any serious competition. But we all know the price of resting on our laurels.

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, MrWolf said:

I suspect that as the British did in the 1950s world market, the big four Japanese brands still don't have any serious competition. But we all know the price of resting on our laurels.

 

Agreed, but I very much doubt that the Japanese will allow their quality to sink to the depths British motorcycle manufacturing reached by the later 1960s. It just isn’t the Japanese way. 

[spikey]

4 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

 ... I very much doubt that the Japanese will allow their quality to sink to the depths British motorcycle manufacturing reached by the later 1960s.

 

I made two serious mistakes in 1968.  I married the wrong woman, and I bought a brand new Bonneville.  It was a dog, and apart from anything else it vibrated more than any other bike I'd ridden.  Which is really saying something.  In the end and with very bad grace, the dealer took it back with about 2000 miles on the clock and refunded the purchase price less an agreed amount for my "hire" of it.  I later found out that it went back to Meriden and the sod got refunded in full.

 

In due course I spent a few happy night shifts in the toolroom checking out another 1968 Bonneville, this one belonging to a pal who wouldn't be talked out of buying the thing.  It too vibrated like hell, and long story short I tried to find out why.  Suffice it to say that if all the reciprocating parts in that engine were within tolerance, they must have been specified by the office tea maiden.  Even the pistons didn't weigh the same.

 

I was never really clued up about AMC, but I do remember hearing that around the time of the merger, somebody realised that the same engines and frames produced in both the AJS and the Matchless factories were only interchageable one way i.e. the AJS engine fitted the AJS-made frame, but didn't line up if persuaded into the same frame produced in the Matchless works (or possibly vice versa), even though the drawings were identical.

 

Apparently the reason was that one of the factories hadn't been making the frames exactly to drawing for years, finding it instead expedient to rely on experience, Mk I eyeball and a large mallet instead of one of the frame fixtures ...

Edited November 24, 2020 by spikey

[polybear]

I did read an article once that said  there was a bloke at the Triumph (?) factory whose job it was to stand on the ends of the silencers to bend them so they all lined up with one another.....

[MrWolf]

5 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

Agreed, but I very much doubt that the Japanese will allow their quality to sink to the depths British motorcycle manufacturing reached by the later 1960s. It just isn’t the Japanese way. 

 

Absolutely not, having seen the meticulous way that the Japanese engineers went about something as mundane as joining together new water mains after the earthquake in Kobe, I would say they would sooner stop making motorcycles as of midnight tonight. However, that may be their very undoing. A large number of the population are only interested in the best price option. There is little marque loyalty amongst non enthusiasts and the ride to work, learner and delivery bike market falls to China. That leaves the niche market fifty plus tourers and weekend racers, who will eventually become like the seventy something's now who remember when buying a bike that wasn't British, German or Italian was unheard of.

[Gibbo675]

20 minutes ago, polybear said:

I did read an article once that said  there was a bloke at the Triumph (?) factory whose job it was to stand on the ends of the silencers to bend them so they all lined up with one another.....

Ha !

 

Very possibly true, I know a chap that used to work on the assembly line of Landrover Discoveries and if the doors didn't line up out came the calibrated length of 3X2 and the big fat bloke would add a pound or two to sort things out.

 

Gibbo.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Gibbo675
Spelling

[MrWolf]

Ford did the same thing with the welded on hinges on the Anglia and the Escort. If you take a door hinge off a Vauxhall E series (1952-7) you can still see the marks where they took the hinge off, hammered it over the back of a vice, before refitting and painting to get the door gaps spot on. 

An Australian I worked with had done his apprenticeship building Valiants, his job was to open the bonnets as necessary and give the panel a twist to ensure that it closed level. This happens in factories worldwide. If you think that nobody puts in a row of bolts loose and pulls panels to shape, whilst someone else gets them tightened up quickly, then don't ever get on an aeroplane! 

 

[Gibbo675]

4 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

Ford did the same thing with the welded on hinges on the Anglia and the Escort. If you take a door hinge off a Vauxhall E series (1952-7) you can still see the marks where they took the hinge off, hammered it over the back of a vice, before refitting and painting to get the door gaps spot on. 

An Australian I worked with had done his apprenticeship building Valiants, his job was to open the bonnets as necessary and give the panel a twist to ensure that it closed level. This happens in factories worldwide. If you think that nobody puts in a row of bolts loose and pulls panels to shape, whilst someone else gets them tightened up quickly, then don't ever get on an aeroplane! 

 

Hi MrWolf,

 

I worked with an Australian that had on his check sheet for diesel locomotives bogies, "Check for Silastic Welds". The reason being was the some depots would apply some silicone sealant (silalstic) to manganese horn guides rather than weld them up properly when the welds cracked. They would then even go to the trouble of painting them and then rubbing dirt into them.

 

Gibbo.

[polybear]

19 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi MrWolf,

 

I worked with an Australian that had on his check sheet for diesel locomotives bogies, "Check for Silastic Welds". The reason being was the some depots would apply some silicone sealant (silalstic) to manganese horn guides rather than weld them up properly when the welds cracked. They would then even go to the trouble of painting them and then rubbing dirt into them.

 

Gibbo.

 

My Boss worked on Subs at Vickers; they had one in for scrap and the Insurance man wanted sample x-rays taken before he'd underwrite it for sailing down to the scrappie's.  One of the x-rays showed a bl00dy great whitworth tap stuffed into one of the body tube joints and then welded over.  They reckon the welder forgot to wind the current down, blew a hole in the joint so looked for something to stuff in the hole and weld over the top before he got rumbled - he would've been out the door for sure.  The insurance man did his nut, but the Boss's boss said "it's been there 25 years - if it was gonna let go it would've years ago".  The insurance man gave a one trip ticket, but only for diving to a couple of hundred feet or so.

[MrWolf]

That wouldn't surprise me one bit @Gibbo675 The rear spring shackle mounts on Leyland National buses had a similar affliction in the 1990s. Possibly not as dangerous, but equally slack maintenance. I remember being warned in a number of jobs - beware of "welder's paint".

Edited November 24, 2020 by MrWolf

[New Haven Neil]

A ship I sailed on was notorious for gaps in frames filled with filler rods and welded over.  That it later sunk and killed all its crew is a point of some anger.  Not caused directly by the manufacturing defects, but they wouldn't have helped.

 

[MrWolf]

That's pretty rough, I have often been called cynical for cursing accountants for giving the job to the lowest bidder. But putting things right has earned me a good living in the past. On a similar note I have seen the pipe flanges either side of a slam shut safety valve on petrochemical lines where the weld prep or alignment was bad and lengths of 12mm threaded rod tacked in and welded over. It says something about the thoroughness of subsequent NDT work that such things still happen, especially in the more remote parts of the world.

Edited November 24, 2020 by MrWolf

[rockershovel]

2 hours ago, spikey said:

 

I made two serious mistakes in 1968.  I married the wrong woman, and I bought a brand new Bonneville.  It was a dog, and apart from anything else it vibrated more than any other bike I'd ridden.  Which is really saying something.  In the end and with very bad grace, the dealer took it back with about 2000 miles on the clock and refunded the purchase price less an agreed amount for my "hire" of it.  I later found out that it went back to Meriden and the sod got refunded in full.

 

In due course I spent a few happy night shifts in the toolroom checking out another 1968 Bonneville, this one belonging to a pal who wouldn't be talked out of buying the thing.  It too vibrated like hell, and long story short I tried to find out why.  Suffice it to say that if all the reciprocating parts in that engine were within tolerance, they must have been specified by the office tea maiden.  Even the pistons didn't weigh the same.

 

I was never really clued up about AMC, but I do remember hearing that around the time of the merger, somebody realised that the same engines and frames produced in both the AJS and the Matchless factories were only interchageable one way i.e. the AJS engine fitted the AJS-made frame, but didn't line up if persuaded into the same frame produced in the Matchless works (or possibly vice versa), even though the drawings were identical.

 

Apparently the reason was that one of the factories hadn't been making the frames exactly to drawing for years, finding it instead expedient to rely on experience, Mk I eyeball and a large mallet instead of one of the frame fixtures ...

 

You need to remember that tolerances are what the production people can achieve at the cost the accountants are prepared to accept. No engineer wants to allow tolerances, they have no engineering value. 

 

It’s also entirely possible for tolerances on individual components to accumulate, causing complete assemblies to be out of tolerance although all individual components are within their respective tolerances. This is a particular problem with the “batch production” system used by British and American manufacturers, back in the day. It particularly doesn’t provide a remedy for the problem of out of tolerance assemblies using parts from more than one source. 

 

The traditional remedy was to hold a stock of parts, and selectively assemble them to cumulative tolerances. The great majority of parts are used eventually, but at any given time there is a significant amount of cash locked up in inventory. 

 

The Japanese resolved this by a process called “continuous improvement” by which all, or most components are checked against spec.  An ongoing study is then conducted of what tolerances have actually been achieved. This then become the specified tolerance. Over time, the tolerances achieved are successively reduced, because suppliers know that if they don’t, parts will be rejected. 

[Kickstart]

Engine a bit more together. Need to do a minor bit on the water pump then that can go in and the side cover can go on. Then set up ignition timing.

 

All the best

 

Katt

[MrWolf]

I like the home spun engine jig, something that I have always done, since engines develop suicidal tendencies when balanced on benches, or even on the floor!

[skipepsi]

13 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

I like the home spun engine jig, something that I have always done, since engines develop suicidal tendencies when balanced on benches, or even on the floor!

The tray under the box is missing, you know the one that catches the dropped washers screws etc. 

[Kickstart]

13 minutes ago, skipepsi said:

The tray under the box is missing, you know the one that catches the dropped washers screws etc. 

They can find far more difficult places to go! Piston circlips were a nightmare.

 

I made the box to do this engine. It has been a success. Whether the rebuild is remains to be seen!

 

All the best

 

Katy

[skipepsi]

I always stuffed all three crankcase openings with thick rags after the first circlip went awol...