More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Dave Hunt]

Something odd going on. Pages 411 and 412 are the same.

 

Dave

[chris p bacon]

14 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

Something odd going on. Pages 411 and 412 are the same.

 

Dave

Not for me.

[Andy Hayter]

4 hours ago, Nile said:

Not helping.

 

 

Agree.  I just cannot get one short phrase out of my head:

 

Ho, Ho, Ho Mrs C.  Have I got a surprise for you!

 

 

[sir douglas]

what are these wagons on the right with the cross framing? i like the look of them and might have to go on my "to model" list

 

Ipswich, East Suffolk Jnc 1911

https://www.mediastorehouse.com.au/national-railway-museum/locations/ipswich-station-suffolk/ipswich-east-suffolk-junction-1911-10086868.html

[Darryl Tooley]

9 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

what are these wagons on the right with the cross framing?

GE 10 ton wagons for continental traffic to dia 10.

 

https://www.gersociety.org.uk/rolling-stock/wagons/1890-1902

 

An example of the later version, to dia 69, can also be seen.

 

D

Edited September 10 by Darryl Tooley
Punctuation

[sir douglas]

i completely forgot i had this because the file was named differently so it wasnt with the other charlesworth images

[WFPettigrew]

On 13/09/2024 at 11:48, sir douglas said:

i completely forgot i had this because the file was named differently so it wasnt with the other charlesworth images

 

What is the rough build date of this one please?

[Compound2632]

45 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

What is the rough build date of this one please?

 

The same photo appears in Turton's Eighth, p. 45, location is Hastings power station, presumably when new.

 

Turton records Nos. 4901-4925 built by Charles Roberts and registered by the Great Central in February 1908, and Nos. 6000-6099, 5200-5230, 5300-5399 also built by Charles Roberts and registered by the Great Northern in August, October, and December 1922. All side, end, and bottom doors and all 16' 0" (inside) 12-ton wagons except the 6xxx batch which were 15 ton, 17' 6" (inside); all red with unshaded white lettering. 

 

The wagon in the photo appears to be a 12 ton wagon with oil axleboxes. My guess would be that it was contemporary with the 1922 Charles Roberts batches but built by a different firm and also registered with the Great Northern. The latter point is on the basis that they're not in the Midland or Great Central registers, otherwise Turton would have found them. The Great Northern registers haven't survived so Turton's information comes from the Charles Roberts registers, as previously discussed.

[Compound2632]

This photo of a postcard was posted on the Facebook group Lost Pits of Yorkshire, 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/277605682741902/:

 

 

Wombwell Main Colliery was in the Barnsley coalfield and was connected to both the Great Central and the Midland. I am principally taken by the dinginess of most of the wagons - perhaps the colliery's own rather economical lettering? Samuel Stevens of Doncaster provides an exception, and the end of one relatively recently painted wagon can be seen in the background. I presume the old dumb buffer wagons on the left are in internal use. 

 

Of course, looking Wombwell up in the Lightmoor Index leads me to this same photo, p. 140 of Turton's Thirteenth. The postcard is stated to have been postally used in 1911. An enlargement of the dumb buffer wagons reveals the lettering 'Wombwell Main Colliery' on the second plank from the top. Turton tells us that Samuel Stevens was a wagon-building firm, supplier of most of Wombwell Colliery's wagon fleet, all registered with the Great Central. So perhaps the Stevens wagon seen here was on short-term hire to the colliery company. 

 

C. Sambrook, British Carriage & Wagon Builders & Repairers 1830-2018 (Lightmoor Press, 2019) has an article on Stevens, illustrated by an extract from this same photo; it is observed that the wagon to the right of the Stevens wagon carries a Stevens plate, on the bottom side-plank at the right-hand end, so this wagon could also be part of the hire fleet.

 

All of which goes to remind me that Turton's Seventeenth is now out...

[Compound2632]

The Midland Railway Study Centre has been accessioning photographs from the collection of Midland Railway Society member Ian Howard. Browsing through some of these, I came upon this photo of a pair of D343 8 ton hopper bottom wagons at Lancaster engine shed, c. 1905:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 92647.]

 

I built one a while back, rather crudely extending the sides of a Slater's D299. The question was asked at the time, did they run in blocks, or typically just singly? So here's two together, not that that sheds much light on the question!

 

It's a shame the Baldwin is blocking the view but here's revenge, in the form of a photo-bombing 1377 Class 0-6-0T:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 92644.]

 

Same location, probably the same day. 

 

The photographer  perhaps persuaded the enginemen to move the Baldwin along a bit:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 92646.]

 

Actually two Baldwin moguls, so perhaps not all taken on the same day - there must have been a regular working to Lancaster for a Baldwin around this time - perhaps @jamie92208 knows?

Edited Saturday at 20:54 by Compound2632

[Mol_PMB]

These two images have just cropped up on the IRS egroup and may be of interest on this thread:

https://groups.io/g/IndustrialRailwaySociety/attachment/90763/0/459149377_10234624492103489_4526561797048518280_n.jpg

https://groups.io/g/IndustrialRailwaySociety/attachment/90767/0/Empty pan hauling out at Stanley Ferry Basin - small.jpg

(hopefully non-members can see these?) As well as the rail-mounted Tom Pudding, there are more conventional coal wagons visible including older dumb-buffered examples.

 

The following two posts describe what is shown, and mention a model of it too:

 

From David Kitching:

The photo is an official view taken for the Aire & Calder Navigation and used for publicity purposes,
including a large format booklet I have in my collection. The caption with the photo is:
"A loaded compartment boat, which has qarrived from an adjacent colliery by means of a line of railway, is
here shown in the act of being lowered into the water at Stanley Ferry Basin, where it floats off the bogie
(seen under the compartment boat) and is then taken to form a train of boats ready for towing to Goole.
The Navigation possess 1,100 of these boats."
 

From Malcolm Braim:

It's near Wakefield and shows a Tom Pudding on its way to Goole with 20 tons of good Yorkshire coal for export. The (unique?) part of the system was that the first mile or so saw the TP conveyed on the standard gauge connecting line to the Aire and Calder navigation until it reached the transfer point. A train of barges was made up and pulled to Goole. The railway section used a pair of flat wagons closely coupled. The colliery was St John's at Normanton.

Wakefield railway modellers are currently building a 4mm diaroma of this very spot. Come and see progress at our exhibition on 5/6th October's at QEGS in Wakefield. Or catch up on an article in the society journal published in about 1980 - apols the exact date escapes me as I write this.

 

[MR Chuffer]

5 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

non-members can see these?

Nope, requires login

[Mol_PMB]

13 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

Nope, requires login

OK, well considering their date I'm sure they are out of copyright:

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

OK, well considering their date I'm sure they are out of copyright:

 

I think we've had the first one before, in the context of PO wagons of St Johns Colliery, Newlands, Normanton, a colliery which supplied 24.5% of the coal received at Skipton (Midland) in Oct 1897 - Mar 1898, 90% of which was for one customer, J.J. Robinson - but none in the Colliery's wagons, all in Midland wagons.

 

The second photo provides an even better view of a couple of the Colliery's wagons.

[Compound2632]

I spent a very pleasant afternoon at the Swindon Railway Festival - a model railway show distributed around the Steam Museum. The Layouts were of the highest quality. several I'd seen before, but did by no means weary of seeing again - Modbury, Pencader, Hope under Dinmore, Valentia Harbour. Among the layouts new to me is the Broad Gauge Society's Edgware Road - the Great Western and Metropolitan c. 1864 - in S7. Acres of fresh yellow London brick and superb rolling stock. A good few Broad Gauge tilt wagons, of course, in quite a bright red. There was a fine little representation of the terminus of the Wantage Tramway, in P4. Unfortunately I missed Rannoch's three trains of the day...

 

It was a pleasure to meet some distinguished Midland Railway Society members with whom I had not before spoken: our President for this year, David White of Slaters (with a fine diorama of Culham station in broad gauge days) and Iain Steel, son of the W.O. Steel of wagon research fame.

[figworthy]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I think we've had the first one before,

 

 

We have. 

 

It has appeared here several times over, from a variety of sources.  That said, periodic repeats are welcome here.

 

Ownership of the picture is an interesting one, it appears in a book in my collection, attributed to a relative of mine !  Given that it was almost certainly taken before his father was born ...

 

Adrian

[moore43grm]

I didn't realize they were quite as big as this:

[Compound2632]

Special watertight Ellis axleboxes?

[Northroader]

I’m just comparing the size with a Felix Pole wagon, also 20 ton rated. There must be quite a lot of air space built in for buoyancy.

 

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Northroader said:

I’m just comparing the size with a Felix Pole wagon, also 20 ton rated. There must be quite a lot of air space built in for buoyancy.

 

Gallery here shows how low in the water they sat when loaded:

https://ywhs.org.uk/tom-puddings/.

Hunting around for a definite statement of dimensions turns up 20 ft x 14 ft x 6 ft deep, though the ones in the photos look deeper, with 40 ton capacity: 

https://www.mylearning.org/stories/inventors-and-inventions-from-yorkshire/297?.

Given that the typical load from St Johns Colliery to Skipton in a Midland 8-ton wagon of 294 cu ft volumetric capacity was around 5 tons, one would expect 40 tons to take up 2,400 cu ft, whereas the dimensions given above equate to a bit over 1,600 cu ft. 

[Compound2632]

25 minutes ago, Northroader said:

I’m just comparing the size with a Felix Pole wagon, also 20 ton rated. 

 

21' 6" long over headstocks, 8' 4" wide, and 5' 0" deep (?) so making allowance for the first twio being outside dimensions, around 850 cu ft? About 2.8 times the volume of the Midland 8-ton wagon, for 2.5 times the capacity by weight. The Felix Pole wagons were designed with the denser South Wales coal in mind, whereas the Midland wagons weren't designed with the less dense South Yorkshire coal in mind!

[sir douglas]

this is from one of Chris Mead's facebook post (he is in charge of the WRMS stanley ferry project)

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

this is from one of Chris Mead's facebook post (he is in charge of the WRMS stanley ferry project)

 

 

As posted by @moore43grm! Interesting suggestion that Stanley Ferry is to be modelled - I'll be interested to see hoe they do floating the Tom Puddings and making them up into a canal train.

[Mol_PMB]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

As posted by @moore43grm! Interesting suggestion that Stanley Ferry is to be modelled - I'll be interested to see hoe they do floating the Tom Puddings and making them up into a canal train.

You could take a trip to Wakefield and have a look:

https://www.wakefieldrms.org/exhibition/

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

You could take a trip to Wakefield and have a look:

https://www.wakefieldrms.org/exhibition/

 

Alas I am engaged that weekend - and Wakefield is a bit out of range, I'm afraid.