More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Penlan]

3 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Do you also have the part-photo showing the coaster, tho'? Asking for a friend... :)

I'm stewarding at the Museum/Gallery tomorrow (Sunday), so I will do what I can. 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Penlan said:

Barrels, we've dealt with Beer barrels in depth, I believe, but these are I believe full of fish, possibly sardines, though the 5 larger barrels in the RH side of the photo seem far bigger than I've seen in any other photo of Sardine exports.  Edit, seems they are larger barrels in the top RH corner of the photo too...
The photo is from a Collection in Penlee Museum (Penzance).
The main reason I'm posting this part* photo is the colour of the barrels, very light.
.
* Part, because I wasn't allowed to photograph the whole print showing the Coaster at the quayside. 

 

 

 

Rather cylindrical casks compared to most others we've seen - not very bulgy in the bilge. Is the difference in tone the effect of sea air, in contrast to the smoky industrial environment in which most beer casks passed their time?

[Andy Hayter]

I too note the shape of the barrels.  they do not look to be as robustly constructed as beer barrels but then they would not need to take the pressure of the gas in beer.

 

Blowing up the picture allows me a chance to read the inscription on the end of the barrels.  I can clearly see  Fish as the bottom word (or top on the clearest since it is upside down).  The word below is more difficult but my best guess is Feine.  That would make the inscription in total:

2 letters - don't seem to be consistent

Then Feine

then Fish

 

Feine Fish is German for fine fish.   It would be interesting to see if the coaster has a German name attached.  

[billbedford]

It was more that the barrels were made new for each fishing season. I can't see anyone wanting to return empty fish barrels

[WFPettigrew]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

over what period did the emigrant carriage run?

 

Not entirely sure but certainly in the years up to the Great War - 1910-14 - at very least.  I, ahem, know this thanks to someone called Stephen Lea posting about it on some place called RMWeb....

 

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Presumably it was a third of some sort

 

Yes.  A six compartment bogie third.  That means it must have actually been a brake 3rd to diagram 13, as there were no other bogie 3rds with 6 compartments, and it was accompanied by a passenger brake van - I strongly suspect that the latter, and indeed the brake compartment in the D13, were purely providing space for the trunks and entire lives that were being packed up to go one third of the way round the world.

 

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

S&DJR carriages and a GW siphon!

 

Why not, indeed!

 

To tempt you further Stephen, D13 was introduced in 1901, and you can buy long-lead etches of this from Mousa Models.  (OK being totally honest about this, D13 was originally designed for use on the Coniston/Lake Side/Kendal branch services (paired with a D23 brake composite, replacing rakes of four wheel stock which must have been quite a step up in the accommodation, but they were pretty quickly replaced on the branches with six wheel stock and the Railmotor, with the D13s and D23s migrating to mainline services, and the odd trip to the south coast.)

 

Talking of Mr Bedford..

 

5 hours ago, billbedford said:

White Star Line started to use Southampton in 1907

 

Your purism might decide this is too late for you Stephen.  That said there is a nice connection here: the White Star line does have a Cumberland connection - owner Thomas Ismay was born in Maryport.

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, WFPettigrew said:

 I, ahem, know this thanks to someone called Stephen Lea posting about it on some place called RMWeb....

 

I have forgotten more than I have ever known.

[WFPettigrew]

On 10/08/2024 at 16:44, Compound2632 said:

I have forgotten more than I have ever known.

 

This is why I have a whole stash of notes!! 

[Wagon nut]

On 26/07/2024 at 17:02, Andy Vincent said:

 

I cant believe that this was four pages back! A bit delayed but finally got time to print my candidate!

 

At long last (on my part) Andy's superb new axleboxes being put to good use. An LNWR D9 in preparation using the Ratio D4 as a basis. Common contemporaries of the D299.

A bit of a rush job before a week away. Many thanks again Andy - hope many others will find them useful too.

Chris

 

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, Wagon nut said:

An LNWR D9 in preparation using the Ratio D4 as a basis. Common contemporaries of the D299.

 

Very nice. @Andy Vincent could you be persuaded to do the earlier Emmett axleboxes to replace the caricatures in the Ratio kits and compete with the very nice whitemetal ones in the LRM and D&S kits?

 

Strictly speaking, it was the 7-ton D4 that was the contemporary of the 8-ton D299, in terms of build date. The conversions to the 10-ton D9 were part of the early 20th century push to higher capacity wagons. Really, to compare with D299 one should take both D4 and D53 together as covering the merchandise and mineral usages. 

Edited August 12 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

I've bought another second-hand book: Cliff Edwards, Railway Records A Guide to Sources (PRO, 2001). It may not be completely up to date but it has an excellent index to the RAIL files with cross-referencing to things like joint goods managers' minutes, which can be catalogued under one company but applicable to several. For example, most Midland material is at RAIL 491 but joint officers meetings with the Great Northern are at RAIL 236, the GN series. These sort of things should be findable using the TNA online catalogue search but I think this index may be quicker. Anyway, only £5!

 

Leafing through, my attention was also caught by a figure from a book of drawings and miscellaneous papers of the Eastern & Midlands Railway, including a good drawing of the company's standard 10-ton wagon, six built in the company's workshops in 1892. Highly modellable!

[Compound2632]

A curiosity of this E&M wagon is that it has journals at 6' 8.5" centres rather than the usual 6' 6"; in consequence the distance between inner faces of solebars is 6' 3.5". Journals are 8" long but diameter not given. Solebars, headstock, and middle bearers are 12" × 5", so 7' 1.5" over outside faces, which is the same as the inside width of the wagon. Inside length is 15' 0" and sheeting is 3" thick, so 15' 6" over headstock and 7' 7.5" over side sheeting. Depth is 2' 10", so four 8.5" planks. The doorway is 4' 0".

 

Continuous draw gear but the buffing springs bear on the middle bearers in the old fashion, rather than being directly behind the headstock. No bottom doors in consequence - a merchandise rather than mineral wagon.

 

There's a photo of a wagon in M&GN livery in Midland Style, which I think shows this type.

Edited August 12 by Compound2632

[corneliuslundie]

I have had an enquiry about wagons owned by William A Boyle of Bridgend. One reference is to Montague, which I have  but another is to page 28 of Keith Turton's volume 16 which I do not yet have.

Can anyone please tell me what there is about the wagons and the company on that page?

Volume 16 is on my shopping list next time I go to a show, but volume 17, just out, will have to go on my Christmas present list.

Many thanks if anyone can help me to answer the query.

Jonathan

[jamie92208]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I've bought another second-hand book: Cliff Edwards, Railway Records A Guide to Sources (PRO, 2001). It may not be completely up to date but it has an excellent index to the RAIL files with cross-referencing to things like joint goods managers' minutes, which can be catalogued under one company but applicable to several. For example, most Midland material is at RAIL 491 but joint officers meetings with the Great Northern are at RAIL 236, the GN series. These sort of things should be findable using the TNA online catalogue search but I think this index may be quicker. Anyway, only £5!

 

Leafing through, my attention was also caught by a figure from a book of drawings and miscellaneous papers of the Eastern & Midlands Railway, including a good drawing of the company's standard 10-ton wagon, six built in the company's workshops in 1892. Highly modellable!

Is there any mention of PO registers. 

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

39 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Is there any mention of PO registers. 

 

No. But it's a rather general survey.

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I have had an enquiry about wagons owned by William A Boyle of Bridgend. One reference is to Montague, which I have  but another is to page 28 of Keith Turton's volume 16 which I do not yet have.

 

I can't be the only person on here to have Turton's Sixteenth? (On my shelves at home - I don't take my library on holiday with me!)

 

Every time I speak to Ian Pope on the Lightmoor or Hudson stand at exhibitions, he mentions another forthcoming volume with a certain twinkle in his eye. The Eighteenth is promised...

[Compound2632]

This is the photo featuring Cowlairs incline brakes to which I was referring last week, having now worked out how to link to it on my phone:

 

 

[Embedded link to image previously linked to by @DOCJACOB on @relaxinghobby's thread.]

 

[phil_sutters]

On 10/08/2024 at 11:32, Penlan said:

Barrels, we've dealt with Beer barrels in depth, I believe, but these are I believe full of fish, possibly sardines, though the 5 larger barrels in the RH side of the photo seem far bigger than I've seen in any other photo of Sardine exports.  Edit, seems they are larger barrels in the top RH corner of the photo too...
The photo is from a Collection in Penlee Museum (Penzance).
The main reason I'm posting this part* photo is the colour of the barrels, very light.
.
* Part, because I wasn't allowed to photograph the whole print showing the Coaster at the quayside. 

 

 

 

Sea water barrels! Albeit from the eastern coast. From a pregrouping Wonder Book of Railways. Date ? Clue - The LSWR Royal Train loco is shown as 4-4-0 430. I doubt they tested the quality of the sea-water, like swimmers against sewage do now.

Edited August 12 by phil_sutters

[Dave John]

A good pic. 

 

The odd cupola  top right is I think the signal cabin;

 

https://www.theglasgowstory.com/image/?inum=TGSE00068&t=2

 

 

[sir douglas]

 

 

1 hour ago, Dave John said:

A good pic. 

 

The odd cupola  top right is I think the signal cabin;

 

https://www.theglasgowstory.com/image/?inum=TGSE00068&t=2

 

 

ive seen that photo in the Railway magazine 1931, an old signal box of the Edinbugh & Glasgow

[Penlan]

On 10/08/2024 at 11:43, Penlan said:

I'm stewarding at the Museum/Gallery tomorrow (Sunday), so I will do what I can. 

And guess what?
The photo has gone back into storage.... 

When I see a copy sometime, I will get a print.

[Penlan]

13 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

Sea water barrels! Albeit from the eastern coast. 

You don't have to go far from the sea to not have been there....
There's an estate in Penzance (less than a mile from the beach/sea) where a friend who was head of a local school there, revealed that a small number of the children, had never been to the local beach/sea.

[phil_sutters]

35 minutes ago, Penlan said:

You don't have to go far from the sea to not have been there....
There's an estate in Penzance (less than a mile from the beach/sea) where a friend who was head of a local school there, revealed that a small number of the children, had never been to the local beach/sea.

When I ran a discussion group in a day centre for older people, in Herne Hill, London SE24, there were members who had never been the other side of the Thames, about three or four miles north. That was in the late 1960s.

[wagonman]

People didn't get around much, especially in the country where you probably had to walk everywhere. It has been suggested that the invention of the bicycle did more to encourage rural exogamy than the railways.

 

That said, I live about half a mile from the sea, and about five feet above sea level, and haven't been to our beach since before lock-down. If I wait long enough the sea will come to me.

 

My wife and most of our colleagues go for an evening swim, weather permitting – at the moment it's insisting – in the sea. Not so much swimming as "going through the motions"...

 

 

[brumtb]

On 12/08/2024 at 14:51, corneliuslundie said:

I have had an enquiry about wagons owned by William A Boyle of Bridgend. One reference is to Montague, which I have  but another is to page 28 of Keith Turton's volume 16 which I do not yet have.

Can anyone please tell me what there is about the wagons and the company on that page?

Volume 16 is on my shopping list next time I go to a show, but volume 17, just out, will have to go on my Christmas present list.

Many thanks if anyone can help me to answer the query.

Jonathan

Hello Jonathon PM sent.

Tony

[RedTrain]

Hi folks,

 

I'm slowly progressing towards assembling the first of the several Ratio LNWR wagon kits I have. Some perusal of this thread's earlier posts has been quite helpful, but not altogether comprehensive. It would probably help if I had any of the LNWR Wagons books to hand, but I've only recently acquired the last of the collection on Midland stock and money is tight... so those will have to wait.

 

A few bits of info I'm after in particular:

• What axleboxes would the LNWR have been using on new wagons by 1913? When did they begin to change (as seemingly most large companies did) from grease to oil axleboxes?
   
• Did wagons with grease axleboxes keep these for any appreciable length of time after the changeover? Could one expect a wagon of, say, 1890s vintage to still be carrying grease axleboxes by 1913?
   
• It seems that the shortage of grease axleboxes is a problem that has plagued users of the Ratio kits since the ages of old. Some conquer this by modifying the profile of the oil ones to resemble grease ones. How would one do the reverse (convert grease to oil), if such a thing is even possible? Slightly up thread I notice a fantastic build of a D9 wagon with 3D printed axleboxes by @Wagon nut and @Andy Vincent.
   
• Similarly, brakes; the Ratio underframes have both single and double shoe with long straight and bent levers. When did the former of these give way to the latter? I've also seen mention that the LNWR was apparently building wagons with brakes on both sides prior to that being legally mandated; when did that practice begin and how widespread was it?
   
• In the same way as axleboxes, are there alternatives (beyond buying more underframes!) if one runs out of the Ratio parts for the desired type? It does look like Wizard Models (née 51L) does an etched set, but extra info on whether this only matches certain diagrams/a certain period would be appreciated.
   
• Are there any visible differences (ones worth modelling, anyway) between the D9 10-ton opens and their earlier D4 6(?)-ton predecessors? Would I be correct in assuming the only lettering difference is the tonnage figure?
   
• Would D4 opens running as late as 1913 have been substantially modified/upgraded from their as-built form in any large quantities? I've got two of these four-planks and I'm wondering if I ought to do one as a D9 and one as a D4.
   
• How long could a wagon carry an outdated livery before being repainted? Was the LNWR particularly diligent in its wagon repainting or would the pre-1908 livery of letter-less diamonds have remained on some wagons to 1913 or later? One could see red wagons on the GWR at least as late as 1914, for instance.
   
• The LNWR used cast wagon plates on the solebars in similar fashion to the Midland; I have a sheet of HMRS Pressfix LNWR lettering, but this doesn't contain any of these plates that I can see, nor does it appear to contain the "L.N.W." to even fashion one yourself. Are there any sources/methods for making LNWR wagon plates, or do most people just print custom designs for them themselves?
   
• I'm aware the LNWR used a dark grey color for wagons above the solebars, with ironwork below + buffers in black. What might be a good recommendation for their wagon grey? Please note that while I appreciate any suggestions whatsoever, I live in the United States and therefore it is almost certainly impossible for me to acquire Phoenix Precision paints under current circumstances. I'm partial to Vallejo acrylics; in my opinion these are the single best modelling paints available, so if anyone who models the LNWR has experience with those I'd love to hear their thoughts.
   
• Would LNWR wagons have weathered in service to appear almost a uniform color (therefore allowing one to skip painting the lower ironwork separately), or is that wishful thinking on my part? I'd be hesitant to make them look to similar to GWR wagons...
   
• @Compound2632 made an extremely helpful post showing a method for drilling out the Ratio solebar mouldings to take pinpoint bearings. Specifically called out is that they are MJT brand; is this imperative or would ones of different make work equally well? Additionally, are shouldered or waisted bearings preferred? I would have assumed waisted as it would be a more accommodating fit for the axleboxes, but again shouldered is specified. (I'll have to buy some either way as I'm right out of both; the only ones of any kind I've got left are Gibson flangeless ones, which I doubt I'd want to use up in a scenario that doesn't make the lack of flange imperative.)
   
• Would I be correct in assuming that split-spoke wheels are the norm across most LNWR wagons? Did this vary to any great degree? These are also something I'll be buying soon and unless anyone has notes to the contrary my plan was to just use split-spoke across the board, for no other reason than I see them a lot and I like them more than solid ones!

A couple less LNWR-related questions as well...

• How prevalent were split-spoke wheels on Midland stock? There are a few scattered photos in Essery Vol. 1 that show familiar diagrams with split spoke wheels, but not many. Was this a case of Derby just using whatever sets of axles were closest at hand when a lot was built, regardless of design, or was there method to the madness? For that matter, when did split-spoke wheels cease being manufactured in the first place? They certainly seem to have been out of trend by the end of WWI (if not much earlier), and by that point disc wheels with holes were beginning to appear as well (yet another enigma I'm sure).
   
• I'd eventually like to try modelling some Furness Railway stock (signalling @WFPettigrew...) and in looking at the kits featured on the Pre-Grouping Railways store (all of which seem fantastic, if perhaps slightly daunting for someone mostly used to plastic kits and not 3D/etched mixed-media) I notice that the FR seems to have had quite similar practice to the LNWR regarding early wagon brakes (one-sided, single-shoe, long lever) as well as body styles (both seem to have enjoyed four plank opens). Has anyone ever tried bodging a Ratio LNWR wagon into an FR wagon of any kind? Are there any known diagrams that are close enough in dimension and detail to make that approach a desirable alternative to simply buying a kit for an FR wagon?

Phew . . .

 

My apologies for the lengthy list and rather broad questions in some cases; I appreciate any assistance others may have to offer and certainly have no wish to make unreasonable demands or cause repeat discussion of topics already covered; I have done my best to search for answers to these questions in this thread and others but have, quite obviously, come up short on several fronts.

Edited August 17 by RedTrain