More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[corneliuslundie]

Thanks. I need to start saving - and build the I class 0-6-0T kit I already have from years ago.

Jonathan

[Aire Head]

The LMS society has recently uploaded a series of RCH wagon drawings which may be of interest to folks here 😁

 

https://www.lmssociety.org.uk/rchDrawings.php

 

This service is free of charge but if a drawing is used commercially or reproduced in any way we would ask that the LMS Society is acknowledged as the source of the drawing.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

may be of interest to folks here

 

Nah, they're 1907 onwards...

 

But seriously, I'm wondering if there is any evidence on the drawings for where they were originally drafted? Any stylistic tics that point to a particular drawing office?

[Grahams]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Nah, they're 1907 onwards...

 

But seriously, I'm wondering if there is any evidence on the drawings for where they were originally drafted? Any stylistic tics that point to a particular drawing office?

Ben and I already started on that discussion offline. On the drawing I looked at, the floor battens are called boards, the axleguard stay is called a bridle and the capping strip is a capping plate, so it wasn't the Midland DO. Maybe someone knows which railway used those terms?

[Grahams]

On 28/11/2023 at 22:26, Compound2632 said:

 

I think you missed my earlier remark:

 

 

 

[Both embedded links.]

 

See what I mean? the R isn't too bad though a bit skinny but the M is ridiculous. I hope someone from Fox is reading this and using their eyes.

 

Otherwise, I've been very happy with other Fox transfers I've used, which have shown that their designers are not usually incompetent or unobservant.

I have the M and R (also L, M, S) traced from Midland drawings with reference to photos. I use them for transfers as well as number plates. 

This is a plate I've just made for a preserved wagon. There is a remarkable variation in the LMS wagon plates, both the outside shape and the lettering. Some pattern shops must have used letters they had in their standard box. 

I'm about to trace the MIDLAND from the works drawing of the scalloped plate for the same purpose (a full-sized plate). 

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, Grahams said:

 it wasn't the Midland DO

 

Next time I've got RAIL 1080/387 out I'll have a look to see who was chairing the relevant wagon Superintendents meetings.

[WFPettigrew]

39 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

particular drawing office?

 

Who were "Truscotts, London" which is on the bottom left of all the ones I have opened?

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

Who were "Truscotts, London" which is on the bottom left of all the ones I have opened?

 

My first guess would be that they were printers to the RCH. The drawings in the LMS Soc archive are presumably as issued by the railway companies to the builders etc., derived from tracings of the originals. 

 

Edit: https://www.bkt.co.uk/our-history

Edited November 30, 2023 by Compound2632

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Aire Head said:

The LMS society has recently uploaded a series of RCH wagon drawings which may be of interest to folks here

 

Well, as a 1908 modeller - yes, even if only marginally! They in any case show the 'state of the art' of wagon building of the period, so are useful for understanding wagons built in the years prior to 1907.

 

A variety of questions come up when looking at these drawings, but I will start with two - both from looking at the "Standard Waggon with Wood Body and Underframe" of 1907, drawing number 1 in the list:

 

Firstly, the drawing shows two square plates fitted to the floor on the centre line. These appear to cover access holes aligned with the bolts that hold the coupling hook onto there rest of the draw gear, around the buffing spring. I assume these plates allow access to the bolts from above, so the hook or spring can be replaced without needing to lift floor planks. I have never noticed these access plates being modelled - did they appear on earlier wagon types?

 

Secondly, the drawing has a note saying inside diagonal strapping is allowed within the specification, and if used, it is to be attached to the solebar at the bottom end. This is a familiar feature from prototype photos and models. However, looking at the cross section 'AA', the inside face of the side sheeting is not in the same plane as the outside face of the solebar. How was this resolved? Presumably the strapping had a joggle in it, but the difference is quite large and a joggle would reduce the ability of the ironwork to resist forces in tension. Also how would the strapping with its joggle get through the side rail? The drawing offers no clue to this - is anyone aware of the solution?

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Firstly, the drawing shows two square plates fitted to the floor on the centre line. These appear to cover access holes aligned with the bolts that hold the coupling hook onto there rest of the draw gear, around the buffing spring. I assume these plates allow access to the bolts from above, so the hook or spring can be replaced without needing to lift floor planks. I have never noticed these access plates being modelled - did they appear on earlier wagon types?

 

I have not seen these plates on any Midland drawing, either earlier or later - notably, it's absent from the drawings for mineral wagons to D607 and D673, which post-date this RCH specification. At a quick dip into LNWR Wagons Vol. 3, it doesn't appear on their later mineral wagons either.

 

8 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Secondly, the drawing has a note saying inside diagonal strapping is allowed within the specification, and if used, it is to be attached to the solebar at the bottom end. This is a familiar feature from prototype photos and models. However, looking at the cross section 'AA', the inside face of the side sheeting is not in the same plane as the outside face of the solebar. How was this resolved? Presumably the strapping had a joggle in it, but the difference is quite large and a joggle would reduce the ability of the ironwork to resist forces in tension. Also how would the strapping with its joggle get through the side rail? The drawing offers no clue to this - is anyone aware of the solution?

 

I'm not sure if this was the first specification for wagons 7' 6" wide internally; I wonder if this is simply a note carried over unthinkingly from previous specification drawings for wagons of 7' 0" internal width? Internal diagonals were a characteristic feature of Gloucester wagons but leafing quickly through Keith Montague's book, all the wider wagons (from c. 1910 but pre-1923) have external diagonals. (They all have internal width 7' 4".)

[magmouse]

24 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I have not seen these plates on any Midland drawing, either earlier or later - notably, it's absent from the drawings for mineral wagons to D607 and D673, which post-date this RCH specification. At a quick dip into LNWR Wagons Vol. 3, it doesn't appear on their later mineral wagons either.

 

That's interesting - so these are possibly an innovation in the 1907 spec that wasn't always adopted. Later, with self contained buffers, the connection between coupling hook and drawbar is by a horizontal bolt, so both nut and bolthead can be accessed from below. Earlier, with buffing springs located in the centre of the wagon, the arrangement was different again - I can't immediately find a drawing with that set-up.

 

35 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm not sure if this was the first specification for wagons 7' 6" wide internally; I wonder if this is simply a note carried over unthinkingly from previous specification drawings for wagons of 7' 0" internal width? Internal diagonals were a characteristic feature of Gloucester wagons but leafing quickly through Keith Montague's book, all the wider wagons (from c. 1910 but pre-1923) have external diagonals. (They all have internal width 7' 4".)

 

That certainly makes sense - the move away from inside diagonals coming with the arrival of wider, higher-capacity wagons.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, magmouse said:

Earlier, with buffing springs located in the centre of the wagon, the arrangement was different again - I can't immediately find a drawing with that set-up.

 

I think that was never the arrangement for RCH drawings, which always made provision for bottom doors. There are numerous Midland drawings for this arrangement, some of which might be on the Study Centre website. These all have the drawhook and drawbar as a single forging, anchored to the buffing spring. Of course without the buffing spring being in the way behind the headstock, there's no need to divide drawhook from drawbar; likewise, the end diagonals are one-piece, rather than being two pieces bolted together with a slot for the buffing spring to pass through. There is a single end longitudinal, less stout than in later years, running above the drawbar.

[corneliuslundie]

The Ince Wagons book has three 1906 RCH drawings (all wood, wood with steel underframe, all steel), all showing the two small plates referred to above, but none of them have any reference to inside diagonals. The 1923 drawing has no such plates. Interestingly neither does the 1887 drawing. But the 1903 drawing of an 18 ft wagon does have the plates – the design which never became very popular.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

Gloucester RC&W Co. wagons to the 1887 RCH specification, 14' 5" internal length, 6' 11" and 7' 0" internal width, 3' 8" and 4' 0" internal depth, all with internal diagonal straps bolted to the solebars:

 

 

These are wagons that I hand-lettered many years ago and which have appeared upthread. The main reason for showing them off now is that I've been giving them coal loads. The four in front have also had their P4 wheelsets swapped out for 00 ones.

 

Each wagon has been weighted with 38 g of lead - two 1.5" x 1" x 1/16" pieces of lead flashing glued together and to the wagon floor - and fitted with a "table" of 1/16" Daler board, onto which the coal has been glued with PVA - a thick coat smeared over the board, then a PVA / water mix, with a drop of washing liquid, applied with a pipette in the manner generally approved for ballasting.

 

These wagon were lettered at a time when the only reference book I had was Keith Montague's Gloucester book, published by OPC in 1981. They were chosen as being ones that could reasonably be supposed to have run on the Midland through the Birmingham area around my period - though I was a little elastic. With much more information available, notably the MR PO registers and Ian Pope's Private Owner Wagons of Gloucestershire (Lightmoor Press, 2006), I find it interesting to revisit these choices.

 

Firstly, two wagons for Birmingham traders, both registered by the Midland:

 

 

Birmingham Industrial Co-operative Society No. 13 was one of a batch of six wagons Nos. 13-18, MR Reg. Nos. 36194-9. I don't have the registration date but the photo in Montague provides the date October 1901. They had internal dimensions 14' 5" x 6' 11" x 4' 0". There is only a Gloucester builder's plate, so possibly these wagons were owned outright by the Co-op, or were financed by another firm, whose plates have yet to be fixed on.

 

The registers also have Birmingham Co-operative Society Nos. 1-6, Reg. Nos. 26017-22, 8 ton wagons built by Metropolitan, registered on 16 November 1898. These were 14' 6" x 7' 0" x 3' 0" inside, with side doors only, 2' 4" high - so an 8" through top plank and, presumably, four 7" planks. The register has a further batch of ten 10-ton wagons built by Metropolitan, Nos. 21-30, Reg. Nos. 48341-50 - c. 1905.Assuming the Birmingham Co-op Soc. and Birmingham Industrial Co-op Soc. were the same organisation, one can speculate that their Nos. 7-12 might have been built c. 1899-1900 and registered with the LNWR or GWR. The latter's PO wagon registers survive, but not the former's, mostly. Likewise wagons Nos. 19 and 20.

 

Lifford Coal Co. No. 1, MR Reg. No. 38877 of 24 September 1902 had a sibling also built by Gloucester, No. 2, Reg. No. 39478 - date not known, since the section of the relevant register I have transcribed was only up to 38907! The register gives the name of W.J. Boyer; presumably he was the proprietor of the Lifford Coal Co. Wagon No. 1 was on hire from Gloucester and had the same dimensions as the Co-op's Nos. 13-18. My model has a representation of the Gloucester builder's and owner's plates on the solebar but lacks the "for repairs advise" plate, which was fixed to the bodyside just above "Co." 

 

Both wagons ought to have the rectangular Gloucester 4S axleboxes (available from MJT) in place of the round-bottomed type of the Slater's kit.

 

Next two wagons that would very likely have been seen in company:

 

 

Stockingford Colliery No. 9 was one of thirty 10-ton side-door only wagons, Nos. 1-30, MR Reg. Nos. 39644-73, of 31 October 1902 onwards; the Gloucester info board in the photo of No. 9 has date Nov. 1902. I've not found any other registrations for this company, though the inscription at the left hand end reads Stockingford Siding, Midland & L.N.W. Railys (or does in the photo, on the model it's a representative wiggle - see https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrs1081.htm) so further wagons might have been registered by the LNWR. But the numbering suggests these were the firm's first wagons (which they owned outright). Stockingford Colliery was in operation at least by 1887, so presumably before acquiring these wagons it sent its coal out in railway company wagons - Midland D299 and LNWR D53.

 

E.T. Ward & Son No. 4 was registered by the GWR; it was one of four bought from Gloucester on deferred purchase in January 1905, according to Ian Pope's book. The photo shows the full gamut of Gloucester plates - for which I do have transfers, so no excuse! But the principal attraction to me was the inscription Empty to Stockingford Colliery, Nr. Nuneaton.

 

Both these models ought also to have the 4S axleboxes.

 

These two wagons have been seen upthread, assembled a few years ago from the parts I'd painted long before:

 

 

Ian Pope's book gives the details. The Pates & Co. wagon, one of a pair dating from December 1893, is the most tenuous for the Midland in Birmingham, being registered with the GWR and based at Central Wharf, which was on the branch to the GWR's St James station. However, Pates had had two earlier wagons registered by the Midland, Nos. 3 and 4, built by the Midland RC&W Co., MR Reg. Nos. 9338 and 9394 of August 1892. From the register. Pope's account can be supplemented by the information that they were 8-ton wagons with internal dimensions 14' 6" x 6' 11" x 3' 2" and side doors 2' 6" tall - implying an 8" through top plank and perhaps four 7 1/2" planks. Also, although Pates was clearly dealing with Forest of Dean collieries, their No. 18, another Gloucester wagon of 1905, is inscribed Empty to Moira Colliery.

 

J. Dickenson No. 4 is a Midland-registered wagon, No. 12932 of 23 January 1894, as described in Ian Pope's book. Nos. 1-3 were also registered by the Midland and were 8-ton wagons, built by W.C. Abell & Co. otherwise known as the Worcester Wagon Co. These three were like No. 4 14' 6" long inside, but were 7' 1 1/2" wide inside and 3' 1" deep, excepting No. 2 which was an inch shorter. They had full-height side doors. Joseph Dickenson owned them outright but No. 4 came with a 14-year repair contract, hence it sports the Gloucester builder's and repairs plates. But the principal attraction to me was the inscription Empty to Birch Coppice Colly Kingsbury Junction - bingo! Unfortunately, Dickenson (or his son or brother) had gone into partnership with one Reg Prosser by 1897, with Albert Cox joining them by 1902, so it's unlikely this wagon would still have had its 1894 lettering style c. 1902.

 

The shad of red is a bit pinker than I would aim for nowadays but at least these two have the right axleboxes!

 

Finally, another pair that have appeared before, Charles Lambert of Stroud's No. 1 of April 1891 and No. 3 of July 1892:

 

   

These are also more than a bit tenuous for Brum. No. 3 at least was registered with the GWR and from Ian Pope's book I learn to my chagrin that Lambert was based at the GW station in Stroud. Still, they've got the right axleboxes.

[WFPettigrew]

14 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

These are wagons that I hand-lettered many years ago

 

And that hand lettering is really very well done.  I saw the top photo on my computer monitor (fairly big one - courtesy of work) and had to go back and have a look after reading that you had hand-lettered them, and couldn't immediately see that you had done so.   The younger you really did a great job with them!

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

And that hand lettering is really very well done.  I saw the top photo on my computer monitor (fairly big one - courtesy of work) and had to go back and have a look after reading that you had hand-lettered them, and couldn't immediately see that you had done so.   The younger you really did a great job with them!

 

The technique was to paint the lettered parts of the sides white, then use a Rotring pen with nibs of various sizes with black ink for the black wagons and black-shaded lettering, and red ink likewise. But the grey was done with a fine brush...

[phil_sutters]

1 hour ago, WFPettigrew said:

 

And that hand lettering is really very well done.  I saw the top photo on my computer monitor (fairly big one - courtesy of work) and had to go back and have a look after reading that you had hand-lettered them, and couldn't immediately see that you had done so.   The younger you really did a great job with them!

The younger 'us' had to do our own paint jobs. There were few options back in the 1960s.

 

[41516]

14 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Also, although Pates was clearly dealing with Forest of Dean collieries, their No. 18, another Gloucester wagon of 1905, is inscribed Empty to Moira Colliery.

 

Filing this one away for the future.

 

[Andy Vincent]

7 hours ago, magmouse said:

That's interesting - so these are possibly an innovation in the 1907 spec that wasn't always adopted.

 

As @jim.snowdon (who knows much more about this than I ever will) would point out, the RCH drawings were just that. They were not a 'specification' as such but a way to communicate to wagon builders a set of designs and design principles that, if they were adopted, would likely accelerate approval of new designs. Some companies may have built wagons that completely reflected the RCH drawings but that was not a requirement for approval. Inevitably, the trend towards adopting pretty much all of the RCH recommendations accelerated over time such that the 1923 'spec' was widely implemented as drawn. 

[Compound2632]

31 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

They were not a 'specification' as such but a way to communicate to wagon builders a set of designs and design principles that, if they were adopted, would likely accelerate approval of new designs. 

 

But it should also be remembered that the drawings were an adjunct to the written Specification. That included a lot of the really important requirements such as the tensile strength and testing regime for axles and tyres. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, 41516 said:

Filing this one away for the future.

 

You might also like:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 15016.] 

 

From Moira Colliery to Egginton Dairy Co.'s Siding at Etwall (GNR) via Burton, 9 Oct 1907, in Midland wagon No. 90604.

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 27841.]

 

From Moira to Bere Alston via Bath (and Templecombe), 4 Jan 1902, in Midland wagon No. 111429.

[Compound2632]

Re. Birmingham Industrial Co-operative Society: an article by Keith Turton on the Warwickshire Railways site indicates that their wagons would be more likely to be seen in LNWR trains from the Cannock Chase coalfield than in Midland trains:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/misc/keith_turton.htm

Not a problem, as far as I'm concerned.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Up bright and early for a trip to Kew but the first off-peak train to Waterloo has been detimetabled (or whatever the slang is now for cancelled) so I won't get there until 10:30. Although it's South Western Railway's turn for the strike next Wednesday, the overtime ban is already biting, it seems. Better check trains home this evening! Still, with an extra half-hour, perhaps it won't be quite so very freezing cold on the platform.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Filling in the unexpected half-hour, here's a question that has been glancingly touched on before, in relation to Burton brewery railways: Bromsgrove Incline Brakes. Here's the little I have been able to glean from the minutes of the Carriage & Wagon Committee and the C&W Drawing Register:

In September 1876, the Locomotive Department applied for six additional incline brakes for working the Bromsgrove (i.e. Lickey) Incline [CW minute 580]. ("Additional" in this context means that they were to be additions to stock, i.e. items requiring capital expenditure; it does not necessarily mean that there were already incline brakes to whose number it was proposed to add.) Clayton submitted a plan and estimated cost of £1,042 in November 1876 [CW 609], this expenditure was approved by the General Purposes Committee in December 1876 [CW 632]. 

A number of drawings are listed in the C&W Drawing Register: Drgs. 287, "Incline Brake" and Drg. 289 "Details of brakework for incline brake", in November 1876, followed by Drg. 321 "Incline Brake to superceed Drg. 287" in May 1877 followed by Drgs. 322 and 323 for details, suggesting that the design work gave some trouble and indeed it was not until 13 June 1877 that lot 4 for 6 incline brakes to Drg. 321 was entered in the lot list. [None of these drawings survive in the Study Centre collection]. 

The listing of wagon stock at 31 December 1894, CW minute 3037 of 14 March 1895, includes six 14-ton incline brakes.

The only other reference to them is CW minute 3944 of 19 September 1901, which records agreement to the sale of one old Bromsgrove Incline Brake to Messrs Marston, Thompson, & Sons, Burton-on-Trent, for £66, so evidently their use on the Lickey Incline had been dispensed with by this time. (This sale we've mentioned before; @41516 had not knowingly come across a photo of this vehicle in use at Burton.)

I've not come across any description of the working of the Lickey Incline in the last quarter of the 19th century, beyond the locomotives allocated to Bromsgrove for banking - Kirtley large 0-6-0WTs:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64490.]

 

Then Johnson 1377 Class 0-6-0Ts, and eventually 2441 Class 0-6-0Ts, by which time it seems the use of incline brakes had been discontinued. 

 

There's some good photographic evidence of how they went up:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 66723; before February 1903, by the lamp iron on the smokebox door.]

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 69207; likewise before February 1903, probably within an hour or two of the previous, though the camera has moved.]

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 60910; at least this one's actually a goods train though it's after the arrival of the 2441s. The photographer was a bit late with the shutter!]

 

This is a goods train coming down the incline, c. 1895:

 

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 60911.]

 

If there is an incline brake, it's not been attached at the front, as one might expect. At Blackwell, there was a short siding on the down side, used by banking engines waiting for a path back down to Bromsgrove but I wonder if that was at one time used to hold incline brakes?

 

I've not worked out which train is going up and which down, in this photo, also said to be c. 1895:

 

 

[Embedded link to MRSC 60912. I wonder if this was also taken on the same day as the two passenger train photos? As to date, much depends on what the number of the G.R.M. wagon is - see Ian Pope's Gloucestershire book again... ]

Edited December 1, 2023 by Compound2632
missing embedded link re-inserted

[41516]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

From Moira Colliery to Egginton Dairy Co.'s Siding at Etwall (GNR) via Burton, 9 Oct 1907, in Midland wagon No. 90604.

 

I don't know if it's just due to what I've seen and what I currently have (examples below), but wagon labels from Etwall c1900 seem to be surprisingly common for a small station on the GN extension between Egginton Junction and Derby.  Did someone there save a collection which has slowly drifted out over time?

 

Onwards to Burnaston, Thurvaston and Longford Hall after arriving at Etwall.