More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

Fairly sure I've read that it was 7 years under the LNER, so I think reasonable to assume that earlier practice was similar.

 

I'm increasingly sceptical of such figures and wonder what the basis for them is, at least for wagons. (Passenger carriages may be another matter.) My impression is that the LMS's parsimonious practice was not to repaint unless it was absolutely necessary for the preservation of the woodwork; I can't imagine the cash-strapped LNER was much different?

[billbedford]

23 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I can't imagine the cash-strapped LNER was much different?

 

But the almost-as-rich-as-the-Midland NER may have been different?

[MikeOxon]

21 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

Fairly sure I've read that it was 7 years under the LNER, so I think reasonable to assume that earlier practice was similar.

This comment and other items in this thread made me think about how short the 'grouping' period was within the overall time-frame of locomotive railways.

 

1923 - 1948; just 25 years, with a large chunk of these disrupted by war time and its aftermath!  Go back a century from there and it took longer than that for railways to 'find their feet', while companies such as the Midland were around for almost 80 years. 

 

Looked at like that, the 'popular' modelling scene has been dominated by a very small segment of the overall picture.

[Compound2632]

26 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

This comment and other items in this thread made me think about how short the 'grouping' period was within the overall time-frame of locomotive railways.

 

1923 - 1948; just 25 years, with a large chunk of these disrupted by war time and its aftermath!  Go back a century from there and it took longer than that for railways to 'find their feet', while companies such as the Midland were around for almost 80 years. 

 

Looked at like that, the 'popular' modelling scene has been dominated by a very small segment of the overall picture.

 

Indeed, and the extent to which the appearance of the grouping railway was dominated by that of the pre-grouping railway whose territory one happens to be looking at, in terms of infrastructure and to a large extent, locomotives and passenger stock. Wagons are a bit different, due to the common user arrangements, but the little calculation I did a while back showed that pre-grouping wagons made up 62% of the LMS wagon fleet at the end of 1931, 42% at the end of 1939, and 32% at the end of 1946 - this is something that I think we've got good hard evidence @rapidoandy understands! I dare the calculation for the other groups would show similar results. @DenysW recently posted a graph showing the decline of the locomotive fleets of the major English constituents of the LMS and LNER (the latter including the NBR):

This shows that in the mid-30s, 70% - 80% of LNER constituent locos were still in service - showing that, with the exception of the ECML and, I think, some heavy freight routes, there had been very little change. LMS constituent locos went more quickly - if the Scottish companies had been included, the picture would be more dramatic!  

 

[corneliuslundie]

Not all pre-grouping wagons were even renumbered until 1928 or so so they would certainly not have been repainted.

(That excludes those which got lost. In 1933 the GWR wrote off quite a few which had not been seen since 1922 and there was one example of a south Wales wagon which was written off in 1933 and turned up at Swindon still on pre-grouping livery in 1940.)

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, billbedford said:

But the almost-as-rich-as-the-Midland NER may have been different?

 

Possibly. But I'm increasingly unconvinced these companies got - or staid - rich by painting wagons. There's a bit more photographic evidence for the NER as that company changed its lettering style more than once.

[Compound2632]

I've put together a little display of wagons for the Midland Railway Society stand at Warley:

 

 

Spot the ones that aren't properly finished...

 

Saturday (tomorrow) only; on Sunday the space will be occupied by just one wagon - one of @Grahams' 5 inch gauge ones.

[corneliuslundie]

Nearly as many as I have OCEAN mineral wagons.

J

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

Nearly as many as I have OCEAN mineral wagons.

You can’t leave that hanging without a picture!

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

Nearly as many as I have OCEAN mineral wagons.

 

I've got two unfinished...

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Also on the Midland Railway Society stand C57 at Warley will be a b/w proof copy of the Society's new magazine for members, Modelling the Midland. Production copies of the magazine will have 8 out of 24 inside pages plus cover etc. in colour, and will be a bound booklet in the same format as the Society's Journal.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Compound2632

[Buhar]

3 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Nearly as many as I have OCEAN mineral wagons.

J

Oceans Eleven?  Or maybe more.

 

Alan

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, Buhar said:

Oceans Eleven?  Or maybe more.

 

@corneliuslundie's layout should be flooded with them...

[Compound2632]

My voice is slowly recovering after talking myself hoarse at Warley today. Good to meet various people!

[Aire Head]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

My voice is slowly recovering after talking myself hoarse at Warley today. Good to meet various people!

Yes good to have a chat! Some insightful conversations 😃

[Mikkel]

On 24/11/2023 at 12:39, Compound2632 said:

I've put together a little display of wagons for the Midland Railway Society stand at Warley:

 

 

Spot the ones that aren't properly finished...

 

Saturday (tomorrow) only; on Sunday the space will be occupied by just one wagon - one of @Grahams' 5 inch gauge ones.

 

Very nice Stephen, I didn't realize you had built so many vans also. Next step must be to achieve proportional representation of the 10 most numerous diagrams. Quarters and halves are not allowed! 🙂

 

Hope you are enjoying Warley.

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

Hope you are enjoying Warley.

 

Just doing the Saturday!

 

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

I didn't realize you had built so many vans also.

 

They are described up-thread somewhere.

 

Of the six on the bottom row, the middle two are Slater's kits built out of the box, representing the 10-ton D363 and the D361, the ventilated van with passenger under gear and vacuum brake. Those two are ones I built as a teenager, as is the D378 fruit van on the top row - modified from the D361 kit. These still have tension lock couplings! The two either side of those middle two demonstrate that by simply swapping the bodies of those two kits on their underfames, one gets the D360 covered goods wagon with passenger undergear and vacuum brake, and the D364 ventilated van on ordinary wagon undergear - through piped, hence, I believe, the small letter A on the door.

 

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

Next step must be to achieve proportional representation of the 10 most numerous diagrams.

 

Representation proportional to the quantities likely to be seen at the location to be modelled. So with the number of fancy vans I've got I should be modelling Evesham or maybe somewhere out towards Sutton Bridge and the M&GN at the height of the soft fruit season, c. 1906.

[RobAllen]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

My voice is slowly recovering after talking myself hoarse at Warley today. Good to meet various people!

 

I didn't get to chat as you were in full flow when I was there to give the very nice man behind the table my money to join the M.R.S. The wagons looked amazing when seeing them in person. Incredibly well done.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, RobAllen said:

I didn't get to chat as you were in full flow when I was there to give the very nice man behind the table my money to join the M.R.S. The wagons looked amazing when seeing them in person. Incredibly well done.

 

That's very kind of you to compliment the wagons; I'm sorry I didn't get to speak to you in person as I'm interested in your interest in the S&DJR - I hope you spotted the two S&DJR wagons in the mix!

[Grahams]

On 24/11/2023 at 11:39, Compound2632 said:

I've put together a little display of wagons for the Midland Railway Society stand at Warley:

 

 

Spot the ones that aren't properly finished...

 

Saturday (tomorrow) only; on Sunday the space will be occupied by just one wagon - one of @Grahams' 5 inch gauge ones.

Stephen, a good display of your wagons and good to see you yesterday. 

Today's show also went well and as you say, just one of my wagons was permitted. I forgot to take a picture of it on the stand so here it is. D305 with whisky casks 

[Compound2632]

Now this is an act I've been meaning to get in on. Here's a quick mock-up:

 

 

Earlier this year @Tricky made me some casks to authentic Burton dimensions; they are advertised on his website: https://www.monksgate.co.uk/shop?category=4mm. I did promise him some photos of them in wagons but regret I have been rather remiss. I got him to make some of the barrels and hogsheads 0.8 mm short at one end, to stand on end in Slater's D299 and D305 wagons with their too-high floor (examples were in the Warley display) but I got bogged down in building a wagon with a proper-height floor for casks loaded on their bilges. The casks included some butts, which are probably not quite right for whisky casks anyway; also, by some dreadful lack of forethought, I only had him make five rather than six.

[magmouse]

59 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Earlier this year @Tricky made me some casks to authentic Burton dimensions; they are advertised on his website: https://www.monksgate.co.uk/shop?category=4mm.

 

These are great - I might see if he can scale them up to 7mm.

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I only had him make five rather than six.

 

No reason why the shipment should be the exact number to fill a wagon. I've been thinking recently about having more wagons that are part-full - loads large enough to justify a whole wagon, but not filling it.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, magmouse said:

These are great - I might see if he can scale them up to 7mm.

 

@Tricky was already doing 7 mm scale casks: https://www.monksgate.co.uk/shop/barrels; scaling down the techniques used there was our starting-point, though in the event compromises had to be made on the way the hoops are done. Those aren't to the Burton drawing though but he has that, if you wanted to start a conversation.

[WFPettigrew]

9 hours ago, magmouse said:

No reason why the shipment should be the exact number to fill a wagon

 

And frequently did not fill the whole wagon.  Just look for example at the FR wagaon fairly central and foreground in the photo of Barrow yard I posted on this thread on the previous page (353). 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

And frequently did not fill the whole wagon.  Just look for example at the FR wagaon fairly central and foreground in the photo of Barrow yard I posted on this thread on the previous page (353). 

 

Is this the one you mean?