More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[65179]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I really should have cropped that photo so as just to home in on the tariff vans...

 

Well, I for one have learnt something by you not doing so. I now know that the GCR Jersey Lilies/8Cs (B1s) weren't the only example in that era of 2 different wheel arrangement variations being tried on the same basic loco.

 

Apologies to all those who are disquieted by the mention of Krugers and Jersey Lilies in the same breath.

 

Simon

[WFPettigrew]

20 minutes ago, 65179 said:

2 different wheel arrangement variations being tried on the same basic loco

 

The GWR Saints were both 4-6-0s and 4-4-2s.. 

 

(And probably others?)

[37Oban]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

An obvious prototype for the next Accurascale model.

Jonathan

PS I shan't be buying one.

totally out of areas I'm modelling but I would buy one just for the novelty value!  Imagine the aghast looks/laughter if one turned up on St Mungo's!

 

Roja

[Dave Hunt]

And to think that I once considered the Q1s ugly.

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

Edited November 21, 2023 by Compound2632
corrected version of flyer

[corneliuslundie]

"What wagons and where?"

A three year degree course I assume, at the very least.

J

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

"What wagons and where?"

A three year degree course I assume, at the very least.

 

It's the sign-up taster session. Anyone expressing too much interest will find themselves locked in the building for the duration.

[Compound2632]

35 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

"What wagons and where?"

 

"What Wagons When and Where?" - "when" is a key question.

[jamie92208]

And if anyone asks the wrong question they will be sentenced to a day a week at TNA copying PO registers. 

 

Jamie

Edited November 21, 2023 by jamie92208

[Compound2632]

41 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

And if a one asks the wrong question hey wilbe sentenced to a day a week at TNA copying PO registers. 

 

No, no! That's the reward for taking an interest!

[jamie92208]

I have two rules for conduct at society meetings.

 

1.  Always attend the AGM or you might find that you have been allocated a job.

 

2.  Never ask a question because if the chair is any good you will end up with a job.

 

I disobeyed rule 2 at the first AGM I attended at a new society and ended up spending 8 years turning a garden shed back into a working horse tram.

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

23 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

1.  Always attend the AGM or you might find that you have been allocated a job.

 

Hobson's choice. If the committee think you are up to the job, you'll be given it either way.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Compound2632
typo.

[jamie92208]

A big thank you to our leader.  Due to his efforts I was sent a much enlarged  list of wagons built by Beadman's of Keighley. I combined this with what I've got already and the number is now up to 850.  A not insignificant total.   Some of the entries transcribed from the Midland Registers at Kew have turned up some real treasures.  One has lead us to a decent photo of a Beadman wagofrom which Stephen has been able to identify a lot of constructional details.  Also one section of entries appear to be made at weekly intervals. They seem to have been producing 4 or 5 wagons per week.  Three would be from a large colliery order and one or two from smaller often local orders.  The amount of information that I've gathered is getting to the point where I could start putting an article together.  Thanks Stephen.  By the way I've found a photo of a D299 so will scan it tomorrow. 

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Due to his efforts I was sent a much enlarged  list of wagons built by Beadman's of Keighley. 

 

Not my effort but Simon Turner's - he had been through the entire 88,000 entries in the Midland PO registers at Kew, a herculean effort in the days of pencil and paper. Reading of my puny efforts, he took pity on me and gave me a copy of his spreadsheets. There are some details to go back and fill in for specific wagons, as occasion arises and interest prompts. My contribution was simply to extract the Beadman wagons from Simon's spreadsheets.

 

The photo in question is on p. 118 of Keith Turton's Twelfth Collection. It shows a pair of freshly (re)painted Pope &Pearson wagons, Nos. 315 and 316, which are MR register Nos. 27500/1; the exact dates of registration need to be checked but must be early 1899. The register says side and end doors, 14' 7" x 7' 0" x 3' 6" inside, 2' 11" door, which all fits with these six-plank wagons, with Ellis-type grease axleboxes, and outside diagonal strapping. Whether the photo is from 1899 would need a bit of research; it seems to have been taken to show off new colliery buildings. Photo is credited to John Ryan collection. The caption says of these two wagons "so far they have not been traced in the written record".

 

I've mentioned Pope & Pearson before, in connection with the Skipton Minerals Inwards Ledger. Their West Riding Colliery at Altofts was the principal supplier to T. Thornton, one of the larger Skipton customers of whom I have yet to discover much. Beadman built numerous batches of wagons for Pope & Pearson, generally 25 at a time, but the wagons in the photo mentioned were from the first batch, so post-date the section of the Ledger I have transcribed, October 1897 - March 1898. Their wagons also turn up in photos of K&WVR stations (Turton's Eleventh) which I suspect indicates that Thornton's business as a coal merchant was not confined to Skipton but covered the surrounding area.  

[jamie92208]

Pope and Pearson wagons were also seen at Long Preston according to an old resident in the village who I interviewed.  As to Thornton at Skipton, have you access to a trade directory.  As far as I know they weren't quarry owners but may well have been mill owners.  One of DonaldBinns' books  has a plan ofSkiptotbat lists all the coal Merchants.  I'll look it out and send you the details.  It shows what space they leased in the goods yard. 

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

It shows what space they leased in the goods yard. 

 

That would be very informative and reminds me that I have photos of the Skipton pages from the Midland's Coal Merchants Register, courtesy of Ian Pope, which I had forgotten about. That shows T. Thornton renting an office from January 1889, initially at 5/- per year but at some date after 1899 the office rental went up to £1. But no stacking ground.

[jamie92208]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That would be very informative and reminds me that I have photos of the Skipton pages from the Midland's Coal Merchants Register, courtesy of Ian Pope, which I had forgotten about. That shows T. Thornton renting an office from January 1889, initially at 5/- per year but at some date after 1899 the office rental went up to £1. But no stacking ground.

I'll dig the book out and take it with me to read on Ruffec station, while watuching big trains.

 

Jamie

Edited November 22, 2023 by jamie92208

[WFPettigrew]

2 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Pope and Pearson wagons

 

And well into Furness territory too:

 

 

Embedded image of Sankey Collection image 3932 showing the FR's Barrow yard, taken from one of the big cranes at the Barrow shipyard - quite an achievement for Mr Sankey to climb up the lengthy, exposed ladders with his camera to take this!  

 

The Pope and Pearson is near the back, in front of the lime wagon that is in front of freshly repainted FR saloon carriage as we view it.

 

Other PO wagons visible include Soutk Kirkby and several Featherstones (the latter were the coal supplier to the Barrow shipyard so are seen in numbers in photos), and two from Robert Balfour (Barrow coal merchant). 

 

Of FR interest are the three open roof cattle wagons of Diagram 48 upper left, dating back to 1880 or earlier, and the ventilated meat van directly above the NB wagon on the dockside. 

 

This is an image I have discussed offline with Stephen previously, before the Sankey collection went live.  Aside from the oddity of the NB + MR + LNWRx 2 etc in the foreground, all loaded with possibly the same thing (dredged sand perhaps?  Or something else?) the mix of wagons here is very much FR dominated, with the smattering of foreign wagons you'd expect in the main marshalling yard that was the reception point for incoming goods for all of Barrow's industries and the domestic market. There are also no MR wagons with their numbers on the side below the M.   So probably this is pre-pooling, and possibly therefore pre-war.  But if anyone has any further observations regarding dating?

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

 

 

[MarcD]

I have the high Res copy so I will have detailed scan of it tonight after the boss goes to work and see if I can add any more to the conversation 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

There are also no MR wagons with their numbers on the side below the M.   So probably this is pre-pooling, and possibly therefore pre-war. 

 

The absence of number under the M is no proof being pre-1917, though the larger the sample the stronger the case. But just one wagon with number under the M is proof of being post-1918.

 

1 hour ago, MarcD said:

I have the high Res copy so I will have detailed scan of it tonight after the boss goes to work and see if I can add any more to the conversation 

 

Right click on the image, open link in new tab, and click on the magnifier.

 

No chance, however, of reading the number on the Pope & Pearson wagon.

 

However, thanks to Simon's transcript, we're now finding published photos of Beadman wagons, that had not previously been identified as such. Here are a couple of crops from scans of books, reproduced for research purposes:

 

 

[Turton, Twelfth Collection (Lightmoor Press, 2013) p. 118.]

 

A pair of freshly (re)painted P&P wagons Nos. 315 and 316, which are MR register Nos. 27500/1, which must be early 1899. The register says side and end doors, 14' 7" x 7' 0" x 3' 6" inside, 2' 11" door, which all fits with these six-plank wagons, with Ellis-type grease axleboxes, and outside diagonal strapping. Between them, a dumb-buffered unsprung internal user trolley for pit props.

 

 

[Hudson, Private Owner Wagons Vol. 2 (OPC, 1978) p. ii - uncaptioned frontispiece]

 

A yard scene including Bingley Industrial Co-op No. 17, which is MR reg 58913 c. Oct 1908, one of a batch of three. Simon hasn't recorded the exact date or the dimensions, but it's a 5-plank 10-ton wagon, possibly 16' 0" over headstocks.

[Compound2632]

No. 316 appears to have brake levers on both sides, at the same end; leastways, the one on this side is left-facing. Not so sure about No. 315.

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Compound2632

[Worsdell forever]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The absence of number under the M is no proof being pre-1917, though the larger the sample the stronger the case. But just one wagon with number under the M is proof of being post-1918.

 

Post 1911 as there's an NER G2 with large N E, could be a while after as it looks filthy.

[WFPettigrew]

13 hours ago, Worsdell forever said:

could be a while after as it looks filthy

 

Thanks Paul for the positive identification and the help with dating.  Do you know what the normal cycle of repainting was for NER wagons please?

[Worsdell forever]

7 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

 

Thanks Paul for the positive identification and the help with dating.  Do you know what the normal cycle of repainting was for NER wagons please?

 

Don't know how often wagons were repainted, I would imagine many weren't after this livery change.

 

[jwealleans]

Fairly sure I've read that it was 7 years under the LNER, so I think reasonable to assume that earlier practice was similar.