More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[MrWolf]

That's a relief, it is a strap bolt as I know it. Used in structural joinery on everything from railway stations to farm machinery a hundred years ago, either to hang a component (often a metal one) or to draw together and reinforce a wooden joint.

[WFPettigrew]

45 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Maybe I'm not using it correctly myself?

 

Well if you're not using it correctly, then neither am I, but I was relying on the expertise of the late John Hayes in his The 4mm coal wagon and Chris Crofts with his articles about the history of wagons and how to build them in MRJ (started in No 12 way back in 1986) - both call them strapbolts. 

 

I doubt either of those two illuminaries would have got it wrong - and @MrWolf agrees as well - so I think you're on pretty solid ground here. 

 

(Unlike curb rails vs side rails, where the debate will no doubt carry on and on...!)

 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[magmouse]

55 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

They're hypogryphical pieces of wrought iron, head of a bolt, tail of a washer plate.

 

Given the round, threaded end has to be fed through the hole in the headstock, it must be the tail of a bolt, not the head. So less hypogryphical, and more of an anti-pushmi-pullyu (tails at both ends).

 

But yes, it seems wise to assume some readers will benefit from an explanation.

 

Nick.

[sir douglas]

While we're on terminology, lately ive been hearing people use "buffer guides" when ive always only known them as "buffer stocks" and ive only started hearing the use of guide very recently

Edited November 2, 2023 by sir douglas

[WFPettigrew]

5 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

"buffer guides"

 

For what it's worth, both Chris Crofts and John Hayes have "buffer guide" in their annotated drawings of typical RCH wagons. 

 

Chris Crofts states that the bit that "made contact with the next wagon" was the "buffer" (RCH definition) or the buffer ram (some wagon builders) but "buffer head" is used "mainly by modellers.  The buffer/buffer ram/buffer head thingy is one of the few things in the John Hayes drawing that doesn't actually warrant annotation!

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, WFPettigrew said:

(Unlike curb rails vs side rails, where the debate will no doubt carry on and on...!)

 

Now, I've transcribed some specifications for S&DJR wagons, issued by the Locomotive Department, Derby, as part of tendering processes. These are dated 1882 and 1898 and use the following terms:

• Sole Bars (or sometimes just Soles)
• Headstocks
• Cross Bars - what I call Middle Bearers
• Longitudinals
• Diagonals
• Bottom Rails - these are the curb / side rails
• End Pillars - my gut feeling is they're only end stachions if they're iron or steel.

In relation to Axle Guards:

• Horns, distance between - the distance between the inner faces of the uprights, between which the axlebox slides
• Crown Bars - the vertical parts; thus the crown plate is the semicircular washer plate for the three bolts holding the curved section joining the crown bars to the solebar
• Wings - the diagonal bits.

So really I'm looking for other 19th century references to all these parts, to see what they were being called. 

 

40 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

While we're on terminology, lately ive been hearing people use "buffer guides" when ive always only known them as "buffer stocks" and ive only started hearing the use of guide very recently

 

So the same specifications refer to:

• Buffer Heads
• Buffer Rods
• Draw Bars
• Intermediate Draw Bars
• Draw Cradle
• Draw Bar Hook
• Links

but no mention of the casting bolted to the headstock through which the buffer rod passes.

 

I've got scans of several Derby C&W drawings for ironwork for wagons but none of the drawings for castings, but in the 1887 RCH drawings reproduced in A.J. Watts' Ince book, these are labelled "Buffer Guide" - and as we've seen, these are drawings for which T.G. Clayton was responsible and almost certainly made in the Derby C&W drawing Office.

 

The term "Vee Hanger" is also used there.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Another visit to Kew yesterday, with a slow journey home - tree on the line between Ascot and Wokingham. No advice on how to get beyond Ascot was forthcoming at Richmond, so I let the first ascot-terminating train go - only one unit and full. Once I was on the second one, ticket acceptance via Paddington was announced... I decided to take my chance and stay on the train as just as we were pulling into Ascot it was announced that the line had been cleared and the train would go on to Reading. This was rather to the chagrin of the chap opposite me who had got his wife to drive out to pick him up at Ascot. I got the impression he wasn't going to admit that the train was going on!

 

Anyway, some more Beadman wagons for @jamie92208 from RAIL 491/924, for Guiseley & Yeadon Coal Co. Ltd.:

 

MR reg. 38166, 10 July 1902: No. 17

MR reg. 38508, 14 July 1902: No. 11

MR reg. 38509/10, 10 Nov 1902: Nos. 97 & 98

MR reg. 38511/12, 9 Jan 1903: Nos. 99 & 100

 

All 10 ton side-door wagons, 14' 6" x 6' 11" x 3' 6" internally with 2' 10" door, tare 6-0. An 8" top through plank, perhaps six planks altogether? I've not yet found any great consistency in the dimensions of Beadman wagons.

 

One other point is that earlier registrations list the firm as J.B. Beadman & Co. but for these, it's J.B. Beadman, Sons & Co. so evidently sometime in late 1901 / early 1902 the sons were taken into the partnership.

[jamie92208]

Thanks for those Stephen.  That brings my total of identified Beadman wagons up to 239.  Yes the firm did become Sons and Co, probably when they were all 21 and could hold such offices.   The two ladies that I spoke to remembered their dad and uncles.   

 

I've also found my copy of David Johnson's second edition of "Limestone Industries of the Yorkshire Dales.   Thomas Murgatroyd does get a mention as the proprietor of a quarry at Staincliffe, just north of Settle.  This was adjacent to the much larger Craven Lime Co's quarry.   Murgatroyd's quarry was opened in conjunction with the S and C and was sending traffic out by rail by 1876. He appears to have either gone bankrupt or sold out to the Craven Lime Company in bout 1887.  The quarry became a site for dumping waste stone from the Craven Lime Company quarry. He obviously continued in business as a coal merchant in Skipton.  Perhaps his daughters were given practical wedding presents i the form of the two wagons with their names on.

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

34 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Perhaps his daughters were given practical wedding presents i the form of the two wagons with their names on.

 

I have sons rather than daughters but no sign as yet of an opportunity to test out the practicality of such a wedding present...

[Grahams]

18 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your replies, which seem to be suggesting that the term is not commonly understood. Maybe I'm not using it correctly myself? Anyway, I think we have three strapbolts here, connecting the headstock of a wagon to the solebar, one on the outside and two on the inside, which two also serve to secure one side of the buffer guide:

 

 

[Crops from scan of Derby C&W Drg. 682, MRSC 88-D0052.]

 

They're hypogryphical pieces of wrought iron, head of a bolt, tail of a washer plate. 

 

Sometimes also found connecting the middle bearers to the solebars but in this particular wagon that function is performed by a pair of tie-rods parallel to each middle bearer.

 

Looks like I need to explain "strapbolt" if I'm giving a detailed written description of the construction of a wagon.

 

I saw your post and something wagon-related immediately came to mind. A Google search came up with a few results, one of which was very similar to a bolt I have drawn many times now. 

This one is even made in Walsall, not China! 

 

However, hypogryphical came up only with hippogryph! Front of an eagle, rear of a horse 🤣. 

Yes, explaining strapbolt would probably be good. 

[Grahams]

19 hours ago, sir douglas said:

While we're on terminology, lately ive been hearing people use "buffer guides" when ive always only known them as "buffer stocks" and ive only started hearing the use of guide very recently

The Midland generally used "buffer guide" from what I have seen on the drawings. For example, Midland Railway Study Centre has 

88-D2780 CAST STEEL BUFFER GUIDE FOR SHORT BUFFER CARRIAGES FULL SIZE No 23 for 3" Dia Buffer Rod July 1921. I don't recall seeing "buffer stock" on a Midland drawing. 

Curb rail is Midland and I have not seen side rail on a drawing. For example, 88-D1362 10 Ton Lowside Wagon Drg No 4340 has the comment "Curb Rail Chamfers ⅜" Carried Through 1/3/20“

The Midland sometimes used terms interchangeably. For example, "wagon" is by far the most common but "truck" is not unusual and sometimes even on the same drawing! For example, 88-D1971 Wagon draw bar hook (for timber trucks). 

I do prefer "carriage" to "coach". I have not seen "coach" on a Midland drawing. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Grahams
Added curb rail comment

[Compound2632]

31 minutes ago, Grahams said:

I do prefer "carriage" to "coach". I have not seen "coach" on a Midland drawing. 

 

Yes, "coach" seems to have come in in LMS days, witness Essery & Jenkinson, The LMS Coach. But the term "coaching stock" for all passenger-rated vehicles (i.e. including horse boxes, carriage trucks, etc.) is of great antiquity.

[MikeOxon]

Go back to early broad gauge wagons (or some prefer 'waggons') and there are all sorts of terms, such as 'strouters' for side supports, cleading (cladding), tilts (canvas covers), and flanches (flanges).  Road wagons and carriages had their own terminology, including 'splinter bars', 'close futchells', 'outer futchells', and 'nunters'.  I found out about some of these when I modelled Brunel's 'Britzka'

[Grahams]

19 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

Chris Crofts states that the bit that "made contact with the next wagon" was the "buffer" (RCH definition) or the buffer ram (some wagon builders) but "buffer head" is used "mainly by modellers.  The buffer/buffer ram/buffer head thingy is one of the few things in the John Hayes drawing that doesn't actually warrant annotation!

Neil, I suspect we are seeing the changing and development of the terms over the years and if someone is modelling the later years, there will certainly be a terminology changes from my period of interest of c1890 - 1923. I presume that this was due to a mixing of the terms used by the various railways at the grouping and then at nationalisation.

The Midland used "buffer head" specifically to describe the round or oval part on the end. This is a snip from 88-D2578 No 24 Standard Buffer For Main Line Carriages Drg No 5505. The term "Buffer" appears in this case to be the assembly including the buffer and the guide.

There is also a dimensioned sketch on the same drawing of the "buffer face" which is looking straight on to the end of the buffer.

[Compound2632]

All shows the unwisdom of trying to lay down the law on correct terminology, in an historical context.* In my description of the construction of a Midland 8-ton wagon of the last two decades of the 19th century, I think I'm aiming for two things:

1. to use the terminology used by the Midland C&W Department at the time; and
2. to be intelligible to the modern reader.

This will inevitably call for explanation of terms; a question is to what extent to cross-reference to other terms for the same object with which readers may be more familiar, as in bottom / side / curb rail. My inclination is to assume no prior knowledge. Of course I also need a good labelled diagram!

 

*I was once upon a time the representative of the International Union of Pure and Applied Physics to the Interdivisional Committee on Terminology, Nomenclature, and Symbols of the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry. In Chemistry, it is vital that everyone agrees what to call a thing, as confusion can lead to calamity, so it is right and proper that chemists accept the terminology laid down by their international body. on the other hand, being married to a lexicographer, I am fully aware that that is rather an exceptional situation and that language is flexible and mutable. The problem arises when people from standards organisations, used to prescriptive definitions, complain about dictionary definitions, which are descriptive.

[corneliuslundie]

As a former member of the British Standards Society and delegate to several meetings of the International Federation of National Standards Bodies (IFAN) I can relate to what you are saying.

And I prefer carriage.

Jonathan

[jamie92208]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

All shows the unwisdom of trying to lay down the law on correct terminology, in an historical context.* In my description of the construction of a Midland 8-ton wagon of the last two decades of the 19th century, I think I'm aiming for two things:

1. to use the terminology used by the Midland C&W Department at the time; and
2. to be intelligible to the modern reader.

This will inevitably call for explanation of terms; a question is to what extent to cross-reference to other terms for the same object with which readers may be more familiar, as in bottom / side / curb rail. My inclination is to assume no prior knowledge. Of course I also need a good labelled diagram!

 

*I was once upon a time the representative of the International Union of Pure and Applied Physics to the Interdivisional Committee on Terminology, Nomenclature, and Symbols of the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry. In Chemistry, it is vital that everyone agrees what to call a thing, as confusion can lead to calamity, so it is right and proper that chemists accept the terminology laid down by their international body. on the other hand, being married to a lexicographer, I am fully aware that that is rather an exceptional situation and that language is flexible and mutable. The problem arises when people from standards organisations, used to prescriptive definitions, complain about dictionary definitions, which are descriptive.

I was thinking about the strap bolts and realised that something very similar was used on the ends of truss rods on carriages to secure the rods to the sole bars. 

 

On a completely off topic thought your remarks about chemistry brought back a memory.  In the 60's,my late father, a chemistry teacher, had to type his own stencils for exam papers.  Why, you might ask.  The ever helpful new school secretary, kindly corrected his spelling one year.,  Alkanes, alkenes and alkynes had all become Alkanes,etc etc. 

 

Jamie

Edited November 4, 2023 by jamie92208

[Mikkel]

I like this photo, maybe others do too. 

 

Caption: "6th November 1930. A van used for cleaning railway tunnel walls". Source, Getty Images, embedding allowed.

 

I don't know about the date. But quite plausible, I suppose, that noone saw a need to paint it after grouping. Anyway, I hope the "GC" justifies its appearance in this thread.

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Mikkel
Typos

[MrWolf]

That's a wonderful contraption, worthy of W. Heath Robinson himself. What a shame it probably ended up as firewood.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, MrWolf said:

That's a wonderful contraption

 

To my mind the best thing one can say in its favour is that its got a screw coupling, so everyone won't get thrown off every time the engine nudges it along a wagon's length.

[MrWolf]

I'm sure that if such a device existed today it would be festooned with handrails, reflective tape, flashing lights, horns and harnesses.

 

Then the RTR boys would make a killing with a DCC sound version....🤣

[Miss Prism]

This one (a modified AA16) did have handrails and a bench to sit on.

 

[Compound2632]

On 03/11/2023 at 17:25, Grahams said:

The Midland generally used "buffer guide" from what I have seen on the drawings.

 

I've just been looking through some drawings I hadn't looked at before and came across Drg. 300 of February 1877 "Buffer Block for Wagons" [MRSC 88-D2032] which depicts the standard Clayton-period buffer guide.

[Annie]

5 hours ago, Mikkel said:

I like this photo, maybe others do too. 

 

Caption: "6th November 1930. A van used for cleaning railway tunnel walls". Source, Getty Images, embedding allowed.

 

I don't know about the date. But quite plausible, I suppose, that noone saw a need to paint it after grouping. Anyway, I hope the "GC" justifies its appearance in this thread.

 

For some reason when I look at that I immediately think of Whimshire and fishing in the canal on company time.

[Rail-Online]

The LMS (possibly of MR origin) also had at least one tunnel van in the Nottingham division:

 

Tony