More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[magmouse]

The Harrison & Camm advert says, second line up from the bottom: “Branch Depôts at all Principal Stations and Junctions”. After pausing to enjoy the circumflex diacritical in ‘Depôt’, I wonder what this facility offered, and how it was provided. It creates the image of H&C wagon repair sheds at hundreds of locations up and down the country (no doubt the intended effect), but this seems highly unlikely. Were there mutual arrangements between different providers to cover all the stations and undertake work for each other’s customers? Or what?

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

Also the 5 link coupling chain, which predates it to before the RCH 1887 regulations I think I am right in saying?

 

The official photo of a Lot 29 wagon (1879) shows a 5-link coupling but the earliest photo of a D299 wagon I've found, which has been dated to mid-1885, shows a 3-link coupling. So it may be that 3-link couplings came in with Drg. 550 in 1882. But I'm unsure what couplings the first Drg. 213 lowside wagons (D305) had in 1877. Drg. 10, for lowside wagons built by contractors in 1874-5, shows 5-link couplings. Some official photos of wagons built around this time show 3-link couplings but the photos may have been taken later, in the mid-1880s.

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, magmouse said:

The Harrison & Camm advert says, second line up from the bottom: “Branch Depôts at all Principal Stations and Junctions”. After pausing to enjoy the circumflex diacritical in ‘Depôt’, I wonder what this facility offered, and how it was provided. It creates the image of H&C wagon repair sheds at hundreds of locations up and down the country (no doubt the intended effect), but this seems highly unlikely. Were there mutual arrangements between different providers to cover all the stations and undertake work for each other’s customers? Or what?

 

Huts. There's that well-known 1905 photo of Wigston, with a row of wagon firms' huts. 

 

But there were reciprocal arrangements: the Midland minutes from time to time mention the number of repairs carried out in the company's shops (not just Derby and Bromsgrove but getting on for two dozen around the system) to Midland wagons, foreign wagons, and private wagons. There was a bit of a do in the 1870s, I think it was, when it was discovered the Great Northern was charging private owners repairs at cost, whereas the Midland had a minimum fee; as a result, traders were preferring to send their wagons via the Great Northern. With great reluctance, the minimum fee was abolished.

 

So I don't know how the firms' huts worked. in 1918, several of the major wagon firms combined to spin out their maintenance business as Wagon Repairs Ltd.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Compound2632

[magmouse]

Thanks, that’s interesting.

 

The copywriters knew what they were doing - based on a Google image search, this is a depot:

 

 

whereas this is a hut:

 

 

The claim to have access to the facilities at someone else’s Hût at any principal station and junction would be less impressive, somehow.

 

Nick.

 

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, magmouse said:

The claim to have access to the facilities at someone else’s Hût at any principal station and junction would be less impressive, somehow.

 

Here's the Wigston photo:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 88-2018-0061, DY2810.]

 

The huts are on the right, in front of the larger building which is part of the Midland's wagon repair works. This isn't the sharpest print I've seen of this photo but from left to right we have huts with signboards for S.J. Claye, Gloster, ? and Hurst Nelson.

[magmouse]

Thanks for that. A picture of the inside of one of the huts would be interesting - presumably they would contain a desk for processing paperwork, tools, and a stock of common parts. 
 

Nick.

[MrWolf]

10 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Thanks for that. A picture of the inside of one of the huts would be interesting - presumably they would contain a desk for processing paperwork, tools, and a stock of common parts. 
 

Nick.

 

For minor repairs, you might expect bearings, springs, couplings etc.

A number of jacks and plenty of oil and grease. I'll need to do a little reading, but I am pretty certain that I have some information.

[billbedford]

Who was responsible for greasing the axleboxes of PO wagons? If it was the wagon repairers, I suspect the huts were mainly filled with barrels of grease. 

[MrWolf]

Not entirely what I was hoping for, but there is a tie in here with the wagons I mentioned some time ago belonging to The Groby Granite Co. Leicestershire.

Most of their early stock was constructed by Staplefords of Coalville, Claye of Long Eaton and others were constructed in house using parts bought it from wheel makers Cammell, Peach & Tozer, H. Bessemmer &Co, Staplefords & Brown Bayley.

 

Quote from Groby and its railways by D.A.Ramsey:

 

" Wagons which were taken out of service due to faults while on the major railway companies' lines frequently had replacement parts sent from Groby to the repair shops undertaking the work.

The wagon repair book shows drawbars being despatched to Bletchley in January 1912 for wagon 135, bearing spring and brass to Burton December 1911, set of couplings to Battersea, February 1921 for wagon 201, and one set of wheels sent to Wigston for wagon 270 in May 1911.

 

It's also interesting to note that once the quarrys' own wagon workshops began building their own wagons, rebuilding existing wagons and cannibalising scrap wagons to build others, "The new wagons were then subject to an inspection by an inspector from Derby prior to joining the Groby stock and being allowed over the Midland Railway system".

 

They had over 450 wagons, so keeping a stock of spares at their works is to be expected, but when it comes to PO wagons in a fleet that may be as little as two, it would be reasonable to think that a selection of essential spares be kept in those huts, or at least readily available in short order from the wagon works.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by MrWolf
General illiteracy

[jamie92208]

There must have been a well developed system for sorting out problems with wagons.  Beadman's at Keighley had a line on their job sheet titled cripple siding.  From that I would surmise that the detaching of a defective wagon was a regular occurrence.  As far as I know it was the only wagon repair works between Carlisle and Leeds. 

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, billbedford said:

Who was responsible for greasing the axleboxes of PO wagons? If it was the wagon repairers, I suspect the huts were mainly filled with barrels of grease. 

 

As far as I can work out, this was always done by railway company employees. The earlier Midland Loco Cttee minutes - 1850s/60s - record decisions about charging of private owners for this. I've not transcribed those minutes; in fact there's a lot on grease I haven't transcribed, including tables of comparison with what grease other companies were using and relative costs.

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, MrWolf said:

wheel makers Cammell, Peach & Tozer, H. Bessemmer &Co, Staplefords & Brown Bayley.

 

Very familiar names from the Midland PO wagon registers, which record what wheels and tyres were under each wagon. Not something I've transcribed but from the railway company's point of view the most important information in case of an accident.

 

7 hours ago, MrWolf said:

"The new wagons were then subject to an inspection by an inspector from Derby prior to joining the Groby stock and being allowed over the Midland Railway system".

 

The triple lock of specification, inspection, and registration was fundamental to the RCH system introduced in 1887, though as modellers we focus on the specification, since that's what affected the appearance of wagons. Individual companies had operated their own such procedures before 1887 (but not the Midland) but a significant point with the RCH system was that the railway companies agreed that a wagon inspected and registered by one company was passed to run on the lines of all companies. And we previously discussed the Groby entries in the Midland PO wagon registers.

 

7 hours ago, MrWolf said:

" Wagons which were taken out of service due to faults while on the major railway companies' lines frequently had replacement parts sent from Groby to the repair shops undertaking the work.

The wagon repair book shows drawbars being despatched to Bletchley in January 1912 for wagon 135, bearing spring and brass to Burton December 1911, set of couplings to Battersea, February 1921 for wagon 201, and one set of wheels sent to Wigston for wagon 270 in May 1911.

 

Yes, I think that's probably typical, with the wagon firms operating in the same way. One imagines a wagon on hire from or with a repair contract with Charles Roberts found to have a broken bearing spring at Wigston and sitting in the cripple siding until a spare arrived from Horbury Junction, whereupon it would be taken into the Midland shop for lifting. Presumably the other options were, if Charles Roberts had a hut or depôt at Wigston, they might have the right spring there and/or do the repair themselves. There were also repairs done "in the field" by repairers sent our from the local works with the spare parts:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 23367-01.]

 

Methods could be pretty basic; indeed, hair-raising:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 31390.] 

[Compound2632]

I'm pretty sure I've posted both those images before - after a while we end up going round in circles but that's all right, as new people join the conversation bringing fresh insights.

 

 

[Embedded link.]

 

It's also worth seeing whether one reaches the same conclusions from the evidence second time round or whether other information or a different time of day lead to new conclusions.

 

By the way, the date and place of that dodgy wagon-propping aren't known but i think it must be a Midland repair shop; I think the wagons on the right are a timber truck sandwiched between two more D299s. 

 

Note also how the M on the side of the propped wagon doesn't stand out boldly owing to the use of non-self-cleaning paint.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Compound2632

[MrWolf]

I don't think that I have seen the dodgy wagon propping picture before, but I haven't been able to read all 345 pages of this thread.

It's interesting for me to study it though as my former engineering career involved a lot of field repairs in less than ideal circumstances.

Although the removed wheel set is double chocked, the wagon itself appears to have only one wheel chocked, just visible behind the jack.

There does appear to be a block of wood on top of the wheel tyre to prevent the headstock resting on the wheel flange

There's no sign of any form of overhead lifting equipment so everything must have been done using jack's and it does make me wonder why the wagon had been set down on the wheel set in that manner. It suggests either a shortage of jacks and props for other ongoing works or working practices that would be forbidden today.*

 

*Unless you are in the middle of nowhere, a war zone or working on your own equipment. Or if on site there's no other way to get the job done and the safety officer asks how long will it take to do, before announcing that he's going off site for an hour.

I'll admit to all of the above!

[MikeOxon]

I suppose the modern equivalents are MOT centres and the rather small sheds that local garages use

[Andy Hayter]

3 hours ago, MrWolf said:

it does make me wonder why the wagon had been set down on the wheel set in that manner. It suggests either a shortage of jacks and props for other ongoing works or working practices that would be forbidden today.*

 

Based on typical "Operating Rules" of today with HSE etc..

You should never work under a jacked item in case the jack were to fail.

Instead, raised items should be adequately chocked or some form of blocking applied to prevent a jack from falling down.

 

Although rules then were very different, if they even existed,  I wonder if this is an interpretation of similar requirements.

[Compound2632]

24 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

Although rules then were very different, if they even existed,  I wonder if this is an interpretation of similar requirements.

 

One possibility is that the wagon was lifted using an overhead crane or set of sheer legs that is out of sight to the left, which might still be supporting the wagon. I don't know, though, what the lifting tackle would be attached to - not the drawhook, I suppose.

[jamie92208]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Very familiar names from the Midland PO wagon registers, which record what wheels and tyres were under each wagon. Not something I've transcribed but from the railway company's point of view the most important information in case of an accident.

 

 

The triple lock of specification, inspection, and registration was fundamental to the RCH system introduced in 1887, though as modellers we focus on the specification, since that's what affected the appearance of wagons. Individual companies had operated their own such procedures before 1887 (but not the Midland) but a significant point with the RCH system was that the railway companies agreed that a wagon inspected and registered by one company was passed to run on the lines of all companies. And we previously discussed the Groby entries in the Midland PO wagon registers.

 

 

Yes, I think that's probably typical, with the wagon firms operating in the same way. One imagines a wagon on hire from or with a repair contract with Charles Roberts found to have a broken bearing spring at Wigston and sitting in the cripple siding until a spare arrived from Horbury Junction, whereupon it would be taken into the Midland shop for lifting. Presumably the other options were, if Charles Roberts had a hut or depôt at Wigston, they might have the right spring there and/or do the repair themselves. There were also repairs done "in the field" by repairers sent our from the local works with the spare parts:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 23367-01.]

 

Methods could be pretty basic; indeed, hair-raising:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 31390.] 

Similar methods are still in use today on what are known as Repair In Place OR RIP tracks in the US.  Fork lift trucks or side boom loaders are used, trucks rolled out and wheelsets replaced.  There are some videos on the Tube. 

 

Jamie

[magmouse]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

One possibility is that the wagon was lifted using an overhead crane or set of sheer legs that is out of sight to the left, which might still be supporting the wagon.

 

That seems unlikely to me - we can see pretty much to the centre line of the wagon, so the pick-up point would be off-centre and so rather unstable. Also, the wheel at the near end has a piece of packing so the weight is taken by the wheel tread, not the flange - perhaps to avoid damage to the underside of the headstock. I think what we see is what there was - wagon lifted on a jack (now displayed by the assembled crew for the photo), wheel set released, and wagon lowered onto the chocked wheels with some packing.

 

Given it is some kind of official photo, it seems likely this was an approved (or at least not forbidden) practice, otherwise this lot have just shopped themselves, big time. Having said that, some of my students posted a video on social media of themselves having an illegal party during lockdown, so it's possible to be that daft.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

I'm off to the uttermost north for a few days. I should have set out at the crack of dawn today to break my journey with a Midland Railway Society committee meeting but the River Derwent thought otherwise - see:

 

So we're starting our travels tomorrow, first stop Durham to deliver essential supplies to No. 1 Son - digital piano, bicycle, globe (he's a geographer), etc., then on to inspect sister-in-law's new coastal palace near Amble. We may get as far as Glasgow... Then home via the West Coast.

[MrWolf]

8 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

Based on typical "Operating Rules" of today with HSE etc..

You should never work under a jacked item in case the jack were to fail.

Instead, raised items should be adequately chocked or some form of blocking applied to prevent a jack from falling down.

 

Although rules then were very different, if they even existed,  I wonder if this is an interpretation of similar requirements.

 

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

One possibility is that the wagon was lifted using an overhead crane or set of sheer legs that is out of sight to the left, which might still be supporting the wagon. I don't know, though, what the lifting tackle would be attached to - not the drawhook, I suppose.

 

5 hours ago, magmouse said:

 

That seems unlikely to me - we can see pretty much to the centre line of the wagon, so the pick-up point would be off-centre and so rather unstable. Also, the wheel at the near end has a piece of packing so the weight is taken by the wheel tread, not the flange - perhaps to avoid damage to the underside of the headstock. I think what we see is what there was - wagon lifted on a jack (now displayed by the assembled crew for the photo), wheel set released, and wagon lowered onto the chocked wheels with some packing.

 

Given it is some kind of official photo, it seems likely this was an approved (or at least not forbidden) practice, otherwise this lot have just shopped themselves, big time. Having said that, some of my students posted a video on social media of themselves having an illegal party during lockdown, so it's possible to be that daft.

 

Nick.

 

It's highly unlikely that the wagon in question was lifted from above with any form of crane, as a lift out of vertical would have dragged the wagon forward until it was under the point of lift. (As in the lift cable or chain becoming vertical) I have used this method to manoeuvre objects by having two or more lifting devices, strategically positioned to take advantage of this.

I certainly wouldn't attempt a lift using the drawhook or buffer shanks as it would impose stresses on the components and the headstock at angles they weren't designed to carry.

If I had no special lifting rig or wheel drop as those men clearly don't but had an overhead lifting device I would proceed as follows:

Pass a canvas lifting strop or rope beneath the solebars just behind the W iron mounts.

Attach the ends to a spreader bar to prevent the wagon sides being crushed and lift from the centre of the spreader bar until I have a "nip" on the lift, just relieving the weight of the wagon body on the axle.

The axle on the ground may start to travel forward, so a chock is kept pushed under the buffer side of that axle (as per the picture)

Dismantle the bearing housing, spring attachment, brake etc and remove the W iron lower brace.

Raise the wagon body enough to clear the axle journals and roll the axle out. There is no requirement to venture under the wagon.

As we see no crane in the picture, but a large screw jack with a saddle, I suspect that the following would apply:

Take a length of channel iron about three feet longer than the width of the wagon and pass it under the solebars just behind the W irons.

Jack up evenly under both ends and proceed as per the crane lift. Again, there is no requirement to venture under the wagon.

The question of the wagon simply being propped on the wheelset is the thing that puzzles me. That would suggest that the jacks had been removed, perhaps to lift another wagon? Which makes me wonder if the wheelset wasn't being replaced, (Otherwise it would be one out, one in, no need to rest the wagon on the wheel set.) probably only the bearings and journals being attended to and possibly by a dedicated fitter or fitters whilst the lifting crew move to the next job. 

I don't know if that is how the railways operated, but I've certainly seen that with white metal lined bearings.

 

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Which makes me wonder if the wheelset wasn't being replaced, (Otherwise it would be one out, one in, no need to rest the wagon on the wheel set.) probably only the bearings and journals being attended to and possibly by a dedicated fitter or fitters whilst the lifting crew move to the next job. 

I don't know if that is how the railways operated, but I've certainly seen that with white metal lined bearings.

 

 

I think it's unlikely that a wheelset would be changed - unless there was a broken tyre. More likely is a broken bearing spring (bearing springs being seen on the floor). I don't know what the procedure was to change the bearing brasses. Was it an advantage of the Ellis type axlebox that the brass could be changed without fully lifting the wagon? Some jacking would be needed at least to take the weight off the brass.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Compound2632

[Rail-Online]

What are the pieces of material on the axle between the wheel and the axle end? I cannot recall having seen these before?

 

Tony

[WFPettigrew]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

More likely is a broken bearing spring (bearing springs being seen on the floor).

 

I am pretty sure you wouldn't need to remove the axlebox to replace a spring, just jack the body up enough to get the spring free of the top of the box and underside of the solebar.

 

I think the removed axlebox is on the ground behind the ?foreman? and the first of the workers (left hand end).  Quite why removal of the entire box was needed  I am not sure.  On later oil boxes you can slide the bearing out - I don't know if that's the case with the Ellis grease box?

 

18 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

What are the pieces of material on the axle between the wheel and the axle end? I

 

The turned down section of axle visible at its right hand end is the journal, the bearing surface of the axle.  Quite why there are what appear to be 3 plates or cards on the axle, as well as possibly a bit of oily cloth, I am not sure.  Maybe the plates were shims that went behind the box for some reason? But I spotted this when the photo was first posted and couldn't work out what I was seeing.

 

Not sure that helps at all!  

[billbedford]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I think it's unlikely that a wheelset would be changed - unless there was a broken tyre. More likely is a broken bearing spring (bearing springs being seen on the floor). I don't know what the procedure was to change the bearing brasses.

 

There are three complete springs on the floor around the wagon.

 

16 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

What are the pieces of material on the axle between the wheel and the axle end? I cannot recall having seen these before?

They look like the axlebox slides, which align the axlebox in the w-irons. 

 

If they were to lift a wagon horizontally like this, wouldn't the best way be with four jacks at the connection of the solebars and the cross-bearers?