More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[wagonbasher]

Hi 

 

I have been working on my wagons for Tackeroo.  (Ww1 military camp, near Cannock / Stafford, 1916). Realising from this thread that most of the traffic to the  camp including munitions would have been in opens, that is my area of attention.  I have this wagon, I presume I bought it second hand because it’s white metal and I know I didn’t make it.  
 

I can see it looks pre grouping by the raised ends and it’s style looks LBSC, LSWR maybe SECR…. 
 

So if it is suitable by date, then the open wagon common user policy means it may have found itself in Staffs ?

 

Can anyone ID it please

 

 

Thank you

 

Andy

[billbedford]

2 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

And the wagons belonging to the daughters. A way of spreading financial risk perhaps?

 

I can just imagine the scene one Christmas:-

 

" and for you, my dears, I have bought you both a nice new coal wagon".

[jwealleans]

2 hours ago, wagonbasher said:

Can anyone ID it please

 

D & S LSWR open?   I've built one but I can't find a picture of it.    ABS may have done an LBSC one with raised ends as well, that's a candidate.

[41516]

2 hours ago, wagonbasher said:

Can anyone ID it please

 

 

 

I have one in my box of things to look at -  Definately ABS.  I don't have a copy of Southern Wagons Vol1 to check, but likely ABS 'F.886 LSW D.1309 5pl Open Round End'.

[Mark Forrest]

2 hours ago, 41516 said:

 

I have one in my box of things to look at -  Definately ABS.  I don't have a copy of Southern Wagons Vol1 to check, but likely ABS 'F.886 LSW D.1309 5pl Open Round End'.

When I first saw @wagonbasher's wagon I had a feeling that it had the look of an ABS product about it.

 

In related news, great to read that the ABS range is going to be available again soon.

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=8915&sid=fb97a05b69c5f985a744db8f9d2bfe21

 

 

[jamie92208]

3 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

D & S LSWR open?   I've built one but I can't find a picture of it.    ABS may have done an LBSC one with raised ends as well, that's a candidate.

They did and I've got one built somewhere. 

 

Jamie

[Rail-Online]

9 hours ago, Chrisbr said:

Tony, is there a date for this photo please?

 

Chris

Chris, the neg is undated but I think around 1922. 

 

 

Tony

[wagonbasher]

6 hours ago, 41516 said:

 

I have one in my box of things to look at -  Definately ABS.  I don't have a copy of Southern Wagons Vol1 to check, but likely ABS 'F.886 LSW D.1309 5pl Open Round End'.

That is the wagon.  I can see from the axle boxes, internal bracing around the curved ends etc.  

 

Your kit doesn’t have a tarpaulin bar does it.  I have seen similar wagons with that sort of arrangement but there are no signs of where that apparatus would be mounted on this kit.  From what little I can see on the internet the D1309 was without any sort of bar.

 

Built pre 1913 so all good for a visit to the midlands in 1916.

 

I presume that brake gear. Wondifully moulded as it is, comes from its Southern region days?

 

Prototype would have been hand brake on one side only, thoughts?

 

Thank you all.

 

Andy

 

 

[corneliuslundie]

Yes, when I saw the brake gear I immediately though "Southern Railway". Did any of the southern pregrouping companies use it first?

Question answered. I still have the instructions for the ABS 896 kit for n SR (ex LSWR) 10 ton round end open wagon.

The diagram shows it in LSWR livery with the brake gear as in the model illustrated above. It also shows the option of a tarpaulin bar but I don't think parts were supplied, though there are instructions about drilling out three holes to fit one. And the brake gear is specifically described in the instructions: "Finally, the std lifting link L.S.W,R. brake gear may also have been preceded by a patent cross lever brake designed by Panter, which certainly appeared on the steel U/F design." It also states that this wagon design was built from the turn of the century, though does not specifically say that the earliest ones had this brake gear.

Jonathan

Edited October 14, 2023 by corneliuslundie

[41516]

35 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I don't think parts were supplied, though there are instructions about drilling out three holes to fit one.

I presume separate kit F.919 'LSW Dia 1309 Open Conversion - 1 set' covered this.  (the ABS list I have also says 'F.896 See F.886 now')

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Rail-Online said:

Chris, the neg is undated but I think around 1922. 

 

Yes, evidently post-1917 at the D299 has its number under the M - usefully!

 

Chris I suppose is thinking about the sheet bar on GW No. 45161 of old series Lot 462, built c. 1889?

[Chrisbr]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Chris I suppose is thinking about the sheet bar on GW No. 45161 of old series Lot 462, built c. 1889?

Stephen,

 

You may think that, I couldn't possibly comment..

 

Chris

 

[Compound2632]

Well, I couldn't find any third or fourth rail at The Great Electric Train Show but there was a good scale mile of WCML so I suppose that justified the show's title. It was all a bit RTR, certainly on the trade side, save for H & A Models from whom I procured two tinlets of Precision paint - LMS Freight Wagon Grey and BR Crimson (!) - and a couple of Cambrian Models PO wagon kits, since a show at which no wagon kit is bought would clearly be no show at all. There was a reasonably steady flow of people with obscure questions about obscure aspects of the Midland, who were each given a Society leaflet and application form, on which the web address of the Study Centre was pointed out. @Grahams 5" gauge D305 with whisky barrels was an excellent conversation starter!

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, wagonbasher said:

I have been working on my wagons for Tackeroo.  (Ww1 military camp, near Cannock / Stafford, 1916). Realising from this thread that most of the traffic to the  camp including munitions would have been in opens, that is my area of attention.  I have this wagon, I presume I bought it second hand because it’s white metal and I know I didn’t make it.  
 

I can see it looks pre grouping by the raised ends and it’s style looks LBSC, LSWR maybe SECR…. 
 

So if it is suitable by date, then the open wagon common user policy means it may have found itself in Staffs ?

 

Can anyone ID it please

 

8 hours ago, 41516 said:

I have one in my box of things to look at -  Definately ABS.  I don't have a copy of Southern Wagons Vol1 to check, but likely ABS 'F.886 LSW D.1309 5pl Open Round End'.

 

As it happens, among the stash of second-hand kits I got at ExpoEM Bracknell back in may is an ABS kit described as "S.R. ex L.S.W.R. 10T round end open wagon 15' 4" x 9' wb, code 896. It's a 5-plank wagon and looks to be very like @wagonbasher's and @41516's; I've not taken it out of the bag so there might be detail differences. Looking in Southern Wagons Vol. 1, I find more variations than I can get my head round!

 

2 hours ago, wagonbasher said:

That is the wagon.  I can see from the axle boxes, internal bracing around the curved ends etc.  

 

Your kit doesn’t have a tarpaulin bar does it.  I have seen similar wagons with that sort of arrangement but there are no signs of where that apparatus would be mounted on this kit.  From what little I can see on the internet the D1309 was without any sort of bar.

 

Built pre 1913 so all good for a visit to the midlands in 1916.

 

I presume that brake gear. Wondifully moulded as it is, comes from its Southern region days?

 

Prototype would have been hand brake on one side only, thoughts?

 

As far as I can make out, wagons of this type were being built from the 1880s onwards, well before the LSWR started using the Williams Patent sheet supporter; whether that was retrofitted to all 6,400-odd wagons I don't know. I'll happily build mine for c. 1902 with no sheet supporter and single-sided brakes; there is a photo in Southern Wagons of one with a single wooden brake block but it also has an earlier style of axleboxes and that particular wagon is stated to have been scrapped in 1902!

 

The LBSCR and SER/SECR went in for wagons having a high semi-circular end; this LSWR style of semi-elliptical end appears to be sui generis. Highbridge copied it on wagons that were otherwise the S&DJR version of the standard Midland 8-ton highside wagon (though closer to the wagons of Lot 29 than D299 proper); there is a photo of No. 210 of this type [DY8431,  Southern Wagons Vol. 1 plate 149]. It has a wooden bar across the top from end to end, as a sheet supporter, a style not seen in any of the photos of LSWR opens but seen on LBSCR wagons. From 1903, the S&DJR started using the Williams patent sheet supporter; it's not clear to me from a quick scan of  Southern Wagons when the LSWR started using this.

[wagonbasher]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

As it happens, among the stash of second-hand kits I got at ExpoEM Bracknell back in may is an ABS kit described as "S.R. ex L.S.W.R. 10T round end open wagon 15' 4" x 9' wb, code 896. It's a 5-plank wagon and looks to be very like @wagonbasher's and @41516's; I've not taken it out of the bag so there might be detail differences. Looking in Southern Wagons Vol. 1, I find more variations than I can get my head round!

 

 

As far as I can make out, wagons of this type were being built from the 1880s onwards, well before the LSWR started using the Williams Patent sheet supporter; whether that was retrofitted to all 6,400-odd wagons I don't know. I'll happily build mine for c. 1902 with no sheet supporter and single-sided brakes; there is a photo in Southern Wagons of one with a single wooden brake block but it also has an earlier style of axleboxes and that particular wagon is stated to have been scrapped in 1902!

 

The LBSCR and SER/SECR went in for wagons having a high semi-circular end; this LSWR style of semi-elliptical end appears to be sui generis. Highbridge copied it on wagons that were otherwise the S&DJR version of the standard Midland 8-ton highside wagon (though closer to the wagons of Lot 29 than D299 proper); there is a photo of No. 210 of this type [DY8431,  Southern Wagons Vol. 1 plate 149]. It has a wooden bar across the top from end to end, as a sheet supporter, a style not seen in any of the photos of LSWR opens but seen on LBSCR wagons. From 1903, the S&DJR started using the Williams patent sheet supporter; it's not clear to me from a quick scan of  Southern Wagons when the LSWR started using this.

Decision made, simplify the brakes, no sheet bar of any Kind, paint Sr Brown, with LSWR  decals and sheets.

 

Thank you to all that contributed

 

Andy 

[drduncan]

18 hours ago, Mark Forrest said:

When I first saw @wagonbasher's wagon I had a feeling that it had the look of an ABS product about it.

 

In related news, great to read that the ABS range is going to be available again soon.

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=8915&sid=fb97a05b69c5f985a744db8f9d2bfe21

 

 

Model Stock, the new owners of ABS/Fourmost 4mm wagon kits and associated parts, will be at the SHMRC show at Admiral Lord Nelson’s School on Saturday 18 Nov.

DrD

[Wagon nut]

On 14/10/2023 at 08:52, Chrisbr said:

Tony, is there a date for this photo please?

 

Chris

There's a Maunsell SECR box van at the extreme right so that would date it to after April 1918 - unless by fluke it's the prototype van which was built in July 15 - according to Southern Wagons vol 3...

[MrWolf]

For once eBay turned up something potentially interesting whilst I was looking for something else:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/374993121646?

 

 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

For once eBay turned up something potentially interesting whilst I was looking for something else:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/374993121646?

 

 

[Embedded link to Ebay.]

 

This is a Derby official, DY612, Wellingborough Neilsons Sidings, with date 5 April 1894 in the photograph register. I'm using a crop of this, showing the D299 wagon in the foreground, in illustration of my next article in the Midland Railway Society Journal. This wagon has Ellis 10A axleboxes, i.e. built after mid-1889, and also the vertical end-strap between the end pillars. There is an official portrait of D299 No. 79456 of Lot 327, built in 1894, which is without this end-strap, so its discontinuance can be dated to the early 1890s.

 

There was a discussion of some of the other wagons in this photo in May last year, starting here:

 

[billbedford]

Is that another 299 with coal raves? and a set of signals out of use?

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, billbedford said:

Is that another 299 with coal raves? 

 

It's dumb-buffered - en ex-private owner wagon.

 

1 minute ago, billbedford said:

and a set of signals out of use?

 

Being installed, I think. I dimly recall some discussion on that point, possibly in the MRS Journal, as to whether that affected the dating of the photo. I'll have a rummage. 

[MrWolf]

57 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

[Embedded link to Ebay.]

 

This is a Derby official, DY612, Wellingborough Neilsons Sidings, with date 5 April 1894 in the photograph register. I'm using a crop of this, showing the D299 wagon in the foreground, in illustration of my next article in the Midland Railway Society Journal. This wagon has Ellis 10A axleboxes, i.e. built after mid-1889, and also the vertical end-strap between the end pillars. There is an official portrait of D299 No. 79456 of Lot 327, built in 1894, which is without this end-strap, so its discontinuance can be dated to the early 1890s.

 

There was a discussion of some of the other wagons in this photo in May last year, starting here:

 

 

Thanks for your interest there and coming back with so much information. I thought the end strap was unusual, but honestly wasn't certain about it. 

Post and be damned, only one way to find out!

[MarcD]

I have to say I did look at the coke wagon and think it was a D299 with raves on.

As a side there is a D299 fitted with raves, although not strictly Midland. The SDJR converted 14 of their D299 wagons to carry peat by adding raves and a door in the sides in 1912. They were the only revenue stock retained by the SDJR in 1914. The were modified in 1925 having their end raves fully planked. The all passed to the LMS in 1930 and some lasted until the mid 1950's as one was photographed at Highbridge wharf in 1956.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, MarcD said:

I have to say I did look at the coke wagon and think it was a D299 with raves on.

As a side there is a D299 fitted with raves, although not strictly Midland. The SDJR converted 14 of their D299 wagons to carry peat by adding raves and a door in the sides in 1912. They were the only revenue stock retained by the SDJR in 1914. The were modified in 1925 having their end raves fully planked. The all passed to the LMS in 1930 and some lasted until the mid 1950's as one was photographed at Highbridge wharf in 1956.

 

Indeed. The lack of modelling posted here is partly due to going down an S&DJR carriage and wagon research rabbit hole. The S&DJR wagons were not D299 - i.e. not to Midland C&W Drg. 550. They differed in numerous respects, chief of which was not having bottom doors. At root, the S&DJR design is closer to the Midland Lot 29 8-ton wagons, to Drg. 402; the 1,000 wagons of this lot were requested on 18 February 1879 and authorised on 18 March 1879 [MR C&W Cttee minutes 967 and 979, TNA RAIL 491/252]. 

 

The initial S&DJR Midland-esque 8-ton highside wagons were a batch of 100 put out to tender in late February 1879, the contract being awarded to S.J. Claye the following month [S&DJ Cttee minutes 652 and 653, TNA RAIL 626/1]. Thus they were exactly contemporary with the lot 29 wagons, which also lacked bottom doors. On the basis of stock totals at the time, as given in the S&DJR half-yearly reports [TNA RAIL 1110/418], these were probably numbered 761-860.

 

A further batch of 50 as additions to stock was ordered in November 1882 from Harrison & Camm, along with 50 cattle wagons from Stableford [S&DJ Cttee minutes 1027 and 1033, TNA RAIL 626/3]. The first Midland Drg. 550 wagons (D299) had been authorised the previous month.

 

The Midland Railway Study Centre has a copy of the specification of the S&DJR wagons, issued in October 1882 to prospective tenderers [MRSC item 13683]. This eight-page booklet gives tables of dimensions along with specification of materials and construction methods. An interesting difference to Drg. 550 is that the solebars, headstocks, and middle bearers are specified to be of 11" x 5" timber, whereas on the Midland wagons, these parts were 11" x 4½". (Unfortunately Drg. 402 does not survive in the MRSC C&W drawing collection so one cannot compare these dimensions with the Lot 29 wagons but both Drg. 10 and Drg. 213 for lowside wagons show 11" x 4½" frame members.)

 

This specification was issued by the MR Locomotive Department, with tenders to be addressed to S.W. Johnson; the MRSC copy has R.J. Billinton's signature on the cover. So one assumes that the specification and accompanying drawings (which have not survived) were prepared in the Derby Locomotive Drawing Office, despite the Derby C&W DO having been in existence since T.G. Clayton's appointment as Carriage & Wagon Superintendent in 1873. Under the arrangements for working the Joint Line, Johnson was Superintendent of the Locomotive Carriage and Wagon Department, with W.G. Beattie then W. Adams acting as a sort of backstop: for instance, Beattie was called in to approve some second-hand Midland carriages sold to the Joint Committee in 1877 [S&DJ Cttee minutes 241, 381, and 399, TNA RAIL 626/1].

 

Harrison & Camm were still using one of these wagons to illustrate their advertising as late as 1908:

 

 

[Embedded link to Grace's Guide]. Note the Midland-style short brake lever; Highbridge soon went over to a long lever.

 

Renewals of S&DJR wagons generally ran at 5% per annum, apart from a period in 1885-88 when it was increased to 8% per annum to speed up the replacement of obsolete and unsatisfactory stock inherited from the S&DR, much of which had been second-hand when purchased [Report by S.W. Johnson, S&DJ Cttee minute 1367 of October 1885, TNA RAIL 626/3]. Thus in principle the entire wagon stock was renewed over a 20-year period, so that by the early years of the 20th century, these 150 wagons of 1879/82 would have been replaced. It is evident from photographs etc. that Highbridge was building plenty of 8-ton highside wagons as renewals throughout the 1880s and 1890s. Since by 1914 there were 449 of them in stock [Southern Wagons Vol. 1 p. 86], i.e. 36% of the wagon stock, they must have accounted for at least that percentage of renewals per annum, i.e. around 20 a year.

 

There was one further batch of 8-ton highside wagons bought as additions to stock: 50 built by S.J. Claye in 1899 [S&DJ Cttee minutes 2291 and 2306, TNA RAIL 626/5]. The specification for these is also in the Study Centre collection [MRSC item 88-1974-58/2]. Again issued by the Derby Locomotive Department under Johnson's name, it is very similar to the 1882 specification, except that the main frame members are now 11" x 4½" as for Midland wagons, and continuous drawgear had been adopted (as introduced to the Midland with Drg. 550 in 1882). However, the solebar was to have a wrought iron flitch plate, ¼" thick, fixed to its outside face - a feature never used on Midland 8-ton highside wagons. I think these wagons were numbered 1072 - 1121. (S.J. Claye also built 30 covered goods wagons at this time, of the same design as the 50 built at Derby in 1896.)

 

Whether this specification conforms exactly to what Highbridge was building as renewals at this time is, I think, hard to know. A photo of No. 356 built in 1901 shows the flitchplate but another of No. 174 built in 1887 does not [Southern Wagons Vol. 1 plates 150 and 148]. Then there are the variations Highbridge played on the theme, turning out renewals with rounded ends in LSWR style, but with a longitudinal timber sheet bar that I don't think the LSWR used. It's the way Highbridge played fast-and-loose with standard Midland designs that makes S&DJR rolling stock such a fascinating subject!

 

The 14 wagons converted for peat traffic were early 20th century renewals, according to Garner's Register.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Compound2632

[WFPettigrew]

21 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Note the Midland-style short brake lever; Highbridge soon went over to a long lever

 

Also the 5 link coupling chain, which predates it to before the RCH 1887 regulations I think I am right in saying?