More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[magmouse]

7 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

Today whisky is bottled locally (relatively). Was that not the case in pre- and grouping periods?

 

And further, would empty barrels be returned?  Plenty of new ones to be had then as now.

The GWR rule book appendix makes specific reference to “wines and spirits” in casks of various sizes, as well as beer and “petroleum and other mineral oils” - implying such traffic was expected. It doesn’t distinguish between full and empty casks, so it is unclear if empties are expected. However, the photos of the breweries showing large stacks of empty beer barrels indicate they are returned - they are not all new. Whisky might be a different matter, though.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

30 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

And further, would empty barrels be returned?  Plenty of new ones to be had then as now.

 

Not whisky but beer casks, returning to Burton, September 1898:

 

 

Standing on end, unsheeted, in ordinary opens.

 

This is a down goods train passing Wellingborough after the dreadful accident there. That the train is for Burton is inferred from the number of North staffs wagons seen in it in other photos in the set, along with PO wagons for North Staffordshire collieries etc.

 

I noticed on the webpage about the Wirksworth firm, their label:

 

 

which spells Irish Whisky without the "e" but does tally with casks being landed at Liverpool for Wirksworth. I do like the spinner sporting on its smokebox door a crest - is it the crest of the arms of the County Down: "Out of an ancient crown a dexter cubit arm vested and cuffed Argent, the hand proper grasping a Celtic crozier Or, looped about the shaft a snake, head downwards and to the sinister Vert."? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armorial_of_Ireland#Counties

- but lacking the crown and snake?

 

Nicely observed, though, are the signals, with roundels rather than stripes.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Compound2632

[jamie92208]

There is considerable empty barrel traffic to Scotland as American and European used casks are used to mature the whiisky and give it flavour and colour.  These could travel from any port that did business with Portugal, Bordeaux or the USA. One other thing to think about is that a barrel of mature whisky may well be a fire risk as  as a small amount of alcohol does permeate through the wood, known as the Angels breath. Beer barrels don't carry the same risk. 

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

Oh. http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Booklet_BR20425_Issue.pdf

Para. 26 (A) (i) (h). 

[Chrisbr]

The 1905 GWR General Appendix accords generally with Magmouse's comments above, however the description on scotching is interesting and points to the evolution of such matters -

 

"Scotches. - Circular Straw Scotches, of sufficient depth to permit of the casks being properly embedded, should be used whenever possible, but if these are not available, Wood Scotches may be used, or, failing them, wads of twisted Straw must be jammed firmly under the casks.

 

The use of Stones, pices of Brick, or other hard and rigid substances for scotching Casks must in no case be permitted."

 

 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Chrisbr said:

The use of Stones, pices of Brick, or other hard and rigid substances for scotching Casks must in no case be permitted."

 

This part agrees with the BR instructions of half-a-century later.

[Andy Hayter]

Thinking further on this, it may well be that casks of whisky were shipped for bottling local to the customer as a means of reducing theft in transit.  It would be relatively easy to lift a bottle or a case; much harder (but not impossible) to tap a barrel for the equivalent amount of spirit.

 

@jamie92208 is quite correct that "new" barrels for the distillery were anything but new and there was certainly a traffic from port to distillery with empties.

 

Other cask traffics would I think involve the importation of wines and spirits from abroad - brandy, port, sherry and quite possibly clarets, hocks and other wines.

 

Beer, we know, did work on a return barrel basis but many of these would be smaller and on generally shorter trips, I suggest, than a barrel of whisky for bottling at the other end of the country.

 

But I return again to the question of whether whisky casks were returned.  On the basis that the "new" barrels were imported because of the qualities of the contaminants soaked into the barrel and what those contaminants impart to the spirit, can a barrel be reused to give the same quality?  Probably not but I will accept that such barrels might be used for lesser qualities.

[corneliuslundie]

I suspect that by the 1930s the GWR Appendix was much the same as those for the other companies on such matters, having been co-ordinated by the RCH.

Jonathan

[41516]

Mentioned before in either this thread or another where casks came up I think, but the larger breweries were certainly keen on getting empty casks back - valuable in both material and labour that had gone into making them. 

 

"...thirty-five clerks employed, whose duty it is to check the numbers of all the casks going out and coming in, and this is done so systematically, that if a cask be away longer than is necessary, it can be traced immediately" pg 65 Alfred Barnard Bass and Co., Limited as described in Noted Breweries of Great Britain and Ireland, 1891.

 

 

Edit -  To add context to the value of materials, hence why they were serialised assets (and bit of D299 too):

Edited October 3, 2023 by 41516

[Buhar]

10 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

But I return again to the question of whether whisky casks were returned. 

Both the G&SWR and Caley had dedicated empty cask wagons.  Whisky maturing favours used casks, often Sherry.  I can't see all the flavour leeching out, even over 10 or twelve years.

 

Alan

Alan

[Compound2632]

45 minutes ago, Buhar said:

Both the G&SWR and Caley had dedicated empty cask wagons. 

 

Also the North British. I wonder if there was any balancing traffic for the empty empty cask wagons - would they have been used for hay or straw?

[Grahams]

12 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

Today whisky is bottled locally (relatively). Was that not the case in pre- and grouping periods?

 

And further, would empty barrels be returned?  Plenty of new ones to be had then as now.

Certainly Charles Wright and Sons Ltd in Wirksworth had a thriving wines and spirits blending and bottling business before and after the time of the Midland picture. They had a national reputation. If whisky was also bottled locally to the distilleries in those days I don't know.

I doubt if the whisky casks were returned. They would presumably have a value used. Modern whisky production often uses once-used sherry or bourbon casks. However, in the pre-grouping era, there are plenty of pictures of empty beer casks being returned to breweries in open wagons. 

[41516]

Burton also had B Grant's who bottled whisky from Scotland, as mentioned before in the thread and a quick search also brings up Port and Sherry bottles/labels.

 

https://whisky.auction/auctions/lot/66657/grant-s-invercauld-scotch-whisky

 

 

Also going back that far, the number of 44772 rang a bell, thanks to an expanded library.

 

On 16/02/2023 at 16:34, Compound2632 said:

Browsing the Derby Registers, failing to find any likely reference to those Essery photos, I came upon the following entries:

 

DY11015 Burton, L&NWR wagon 44772 containing 8 butts whiskey 8/5/1919 Goods

DY11016 Burton, L&NWR wagon 44772 containing 8 butts whiskey 8/5/1919 Goods

DY11017 Burton, L&NWR wagon 44772 containing 8 butts whiskey, side down

DY11018 Burton, L&NWR wagon 44772 containing 8 butts whiskey, shewing butts and spaces

DY11019 Burton, L&NWR wagon 44772 containing 8 butts whiskey, shewing butts and spaces, perspective

DY11020 Burton, NBR wagon 4477 containing casks of port wine

DY11021 Burton, NBR wagon 4477 containing casks of port wine

 

No idea if the photos actually survive, but tantalising for those interested in loading casks!

 

Pages 56 and 83, LNWR Wagons Vol1 - pictures of how not to load casks!

Edited October 3, 2023 by 41516

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, 41516 said:

Pages 56 and 83, LNWR Wagons Vol1 - pictures of how not to load casks!

 

And unattributed there.

[Penlan]

14 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

Today whisky is bottled locally (relatively). Was that not the case in pre- and grouping periods?

Stored in 'Bonded Warehouses/Stores' in large Cities etc., before local distribution to agents etc.,

Edited October 3, 2023 by Penlan

[41516]

1 hour ago, Penlan said:

Stored in 'Bonded Warehouses/Stores' in large Cities etc

 

Derby Road, Burton.  Still being used as a bonded warehouse to this day, for a wine storage company.

 

If I were to have a guess, the LNWR photos referenced before were probably taken here. There are enough windows along the loading bay entering the building to fit and it would make sense for the photos to be taken at a bonded warehouse rather than goods depot for whiskey casks.

 

Britain From Above image crop:

Edited October 3, 2023 by 41516

[41516]

On 02/10/2023 at 12:54, Compound2632 said:

This photo, though almost certainly a Derby official, is difficult to identify unambiguously in the register. There is this set of six entries:

 

DY11039 Derby, St. Mary, NBR wagon 20263, side view, door up 25/6/1919 Goods

DY11040 Derby, St. Mary, NBR wagon 20263, side view, door down 25/6/1919 Goods

DY11041 Derby, St. Mary, NBR wagon 20263, end view 25/6/1919 Goods

DY11042 Derby, St. Mary, NBR wagon 20263, end view, (not used) 25/6/1919 Goods

DY11043 Derby, St. Mary, NBR wagon 17515, side view 26/6/1919 Goods

DY11044 Derby, St. Mary, NBR wagon 17515, end view 26/6/1919 Goods

 

It's possible that the person making these entries may have made a mistake and, having written four entries referring to a NBR wagon, simply written NBR in error for MR for the last two. So if our photo is DY11043, entered in the register on 26/6/19, that fits with a chalk date 21/4/19. 

Pages 13/14 of Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol 3.  DY11040 pg 13, date of 25/4/19 on the solebar, attibuted to C. Croft.  I assume DY11041 page 14, author's collection.

 

Same background location, but with a change in supporting wagons to the rear.

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

36 minutes ago, 41516 said:

Pages 13/14 of Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol 3.  DY11040 pg 13, date of 25/4/19 on the solebar, attibuted to C. Croft.  I assume DY11041 page 14, author's collection.

 

Hum. They're all crawling out of the woodwork now! On p. 8, NB open No. 4477 with roped casks (bilgeways) which must be DY 11020 or 11021. Casks of port wine. W.O. Steel collection cty R.J. Essery.

 

36 minutes ago, 41516 said:

Same background location, but with a change in supporting wagons to the rear.

 

With apologies to those without the book* an interesting lot, including a D387 banana van, 117430, with external vertical boarding, sporting a large white (?) roundel to the right of the door and a peculiar two-tone look - from half-way across the second board to the right of the door to the right-hand end it's the usual grubby dark shade but the rest is quite a fresh grey - perhaps it had to have a door repaired or replaced, The left-hand side is hidden behind the end of a LNWR D88, which has a large chalk 2 in a circle - having no 4 mm chalk mark transfers to hand, this modeller's used a 7 mm one! No. 117430 is an addition to my list, which tells me I haven't been through LNER Wagons Vol. 3 properly...

 

*Sorry, makes you sound like heathens or gentiles, rather than merely deprived. 

 

These two photos show the next stage in packing whisky &c casks. Having placed them bilgeways on their rope coils, sacks of straw or whatever have been stuffed between their ends, to stop them knocking against each other. At the end of the wagon, they're hard up against the end with no additional packing. DY11041, the end view, shows the same stage. The casks are not central in the wagon but up against one side, with 18" or so clear along the other side.

 

The ends of the casks are interesting too. One has a series of chalk numbers and a stencilled word that might be DERBY but probably isn't. The other has a semic-circular pasted label - lettering in an arc might indeed be WIRKSWORTH something? But the word OPORTO is clear across the bottom of the label.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Compound2632

[magmouse]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

*Sorry, makes you sound like heathens or gentiles, rather than merely deprived.

Without the book = beyond the pale?

 

I’ll try not to kick the bucket on my way out…

 

For this deprived scholar, lacking the book in question, would someone be able to PM me the relevant pictures? A quick phone photo would do. I’m curious about the loading of the casks. Thanks -

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

39 minutes ago, magmouse said:

For this deprived scholar, lacking the book in question, would someone be able to PM me the relevant pictures?

 

See PM.

[magmouse]

53 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

See PM.

Thank you - pictures received from two kindly RMwebbers.

 

Nick.

[Grahams]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

See PM.

Well, I have ordered the book (and a new bookcase. This is ridiculous now, my plan was to reduce my book collection...). 

In the meantime, Stephen, if you  could see your way to sending me the pictures, that would be super. 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Grahams said:

In the meantime, Stephen, if you  could see your way to sending me the pictures, that would be super. 

 

See PM.

[Nick Lawson]

On 02/10/2023 at 21:37, Andy Hayter said:

Today whisky is bottled locally (relatively).

Depends. I know the various Islay whiskers nowadays travel to the mainland in road tankers (on CalMac ferries) for bottling somewhere near Glasgow.

On 02/10/2023 at 22:18, jamie92208 said:

There is considerable empty barrel traffic to Scotland as American and European used casks are used to mature the whiisky and give it flavour and colour.

Although I seem to remember seeing on the telly that (at least in some cases) the empties are knocked apart by coopers at the originating end and reassembled by Scottish coopers. The inside surfaces of the parts may be flamed before reassembly.

[Grahams]

16 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The ends of the casks are interesting too. One has a series of chalk numbers and a stencilled word that might be DERBY but probably isn't. The other has a semic-circular pasted label - lettering in an arc might indeed be WIRKSWORTH something? But the word OPORTO is clear across the bottom of the label.

Stephen has kindly sent me the scans and I have had an Adobe Lightroom dabble to attempt to read the writing on the end of one of the casks. We have agreed that this tiny snippet is a reasonable use of the scan.

Can anyone decipher the words/letters above "OPORTO" on the semi-circular label?