More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[MR Chuffer]

2 hours ago, Grahams said:

seems to show a chalked date ending in 19 (21.4.19 perhaps??) on the solebar

To me, that looks like 10 and the tail of the 9 appears to be a crease or blemish on the photo, being a much taller numeral than the others if it was 19.

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

To me, that looks like 10 and the tail of the 9 appears to be a crease or blemish on the photo, being a much taller numeral than the others if it was 19.

 

This photo, though almost certainly a Derby official, is difficult to identify unambiguously in the register. There is this set of six entries:

 

DY11039 Derby, St. Mary, NBR wagon 20263, side view, door up 25/6/1919 Goods

DY11040 Derby, St. Mary, NBR wagon 20263, side view, door down 25/6/1919 Goods

DY11041 Derby, St. Mary, NBR wagon 20263, end view 25/6/1919 Goods

DY11042 Derby, St. Mary, NBR wagon 20263, end view, (not used) 25/6/1919 Goods

DY11043 Derby, St. Mary, NBR wagon 17515, side view 26/6/1919 Goods

DY11044 Derby, St. Mary, NBR wagon 17515, end view 26/6/1919 Goods

 

It's possible that the person making these entries may have made a mistake and, having written four entries referring to a NBR wagon, simply written NBR in error for MR for the last two. So if our photo is DY11043, entered in the register on 26/6/19, that fits with a chalk date 21/4/19. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Compound2632

[Schooner]

That's a glorious model @Grahams!

 

Would it be possible to share a high-res crop of the RH buffer (perhaps with the same Lightroom settings for best contrast)? I'd be interested in getting a good look at the knot, if not too much trouble.

[Compound2632]

In any case, I think a long vertical tail to the 9 is perfectly likely, especially with this being chalked in an awkward space under the curb rail.

[Grahams]

34 minutes ago, Schooner said:

That's a glorious model @Grahams!

 

Would it be possible to share a high-res crop of the RH buffer (perhaps with the same Lightroom settings for best contrast)? I'd be interested in getting a good look at the knot, if not too much trouble.

Thank you 😊. 

This is the best I can do on the knot. It might be possible to have another go. 

As I have to try and reproduce it, any results of your investigation would be very interesting. 

By the way, two of the ropes seem to be trapped between the sides and the curb rail. 

[Schooner]

Brill, thanks! I'll have a play this eve (7mm) and see if I can replicate. 

[magmouse]

@Grahams - that is a seriously impressive model, and shows what can be done in the larger scales.

 

As @Compound2632 mentioned, as well as the discussion thread on roping, I wrote up my 7mm scale build of a GWR 4-plank loaded with casks here:

 

 

The same photos as you are using were my main reference points, as well as the GWR rule book appendix, which gives some detailed instructions on the transport of casks with various contents.

 

Nick.

 

[JustinDean]

3 hours ago, Grahams said:

An update on my D305 'whisky wagon' in 27mm/ft scale, based on the wagon in Plate 76 of Midland Wagons Vol 1 by Bob Essery. I have a high resolution scan of the photograph, kindly supplied by the Kidderminster museum (krm Photo/086843). 

I'm aiming for a wagon maybe 4 years into the nominal 6 year cycle. The grey in the picture shows as darker than most of the other wagons in view. There is darkening round most of the ironwork which I assume was rust bleed onto the grey but it could also be dirt, probably a combination.

The Monarch spring door controllers function! I was not over-hopeful on that but they worked first time on both doors. They are not sprung, although they could be. I don't know why I am still surprised that exact replicas of the Midland drawings fit and function. 
Transfers are on and the first attempt at the chalk script destination writing. The picture doesn't show a ticket in the clip but I believe that was a requirement so maybe that had not yet been added when the photograph was taken.
The rust will need a bit of toning down and the inside wood colour is a never-ending job to make it look right (whatever 'right' is).
The transfers are just their plain bright white at the moment so they will receive some dulling down.

The white rectangle on the door is a 'SHUNT WITH CARE' label. I've googled and searched but not found one with the exact layout of letters. All the searches resulted in red letters on a white background so that is what will feature unless someone can show different colours for a Midland label. 

Adjusting the brightness, contrast, etc in Adobe Lightroom seems to show a chalked date ending in 19 (21.4.19 perhaps??) on the solebar. I wonder if that could indicate a hint of a rough date for the picture?

6 casks require weathering now. I need to decide what was written on them, both the chalk and presumably the lettered ends.

I also need to decide how to secure the casks in the wagon. They are clearly roped although the ropes look a bit slack and half-hearted. A picture of some similar casks (sorry, can't remember where I found it) sitting on what appear to be coiled ropes

would offer one way although I would have expected some sort of timber chocks to be another. Advice on all this would be gratefully received.

I have some information on the whiskies Charles Wright and Sons Ltd in Wirksworth was bottling and use that information to input. 
I assume the number 10 on the end of the headstock was for the shunters to select the correct siding. Do we believe it would feature on both sides? Also on the wagon ends? I'm assuming the destination writing would be duplicated on the other door but I'm not sure. It depends on the purpose of it. 

All input and comments are most welcome, particularly constructive criticism.

 

This is a lovely model and peaked my interest (pardon the pun) as I live about 100 yards away from where Charles Wright was located. 
I’m sure you’ve seen this entry on the Wirksworth page but just in case you haven’t this may be of interest :

http://www.wirksworth.org.uk/b53-cwri.htm
 

Jay

[Grahams]

57 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

This photo, though almost certainly a Derby official, is difficult to identify unambiguously in the register. There is this set of six entries:

 

DY11039 Derby, St. Mary, NBR wagon 20263, side view, door up 25/6/1919 Goods

DY11040 Derby, St. Mary, NBR wagon 20263, side view, door down 25/6/1919 Goods

DY11041 Derby, St. Mary, NBR wagon 20263, end view 25/6/1919 Goods

DY11042 Derby, St. Mary, NBR wagon 20263, end view, (not used) 25/6/1919 Goods

DY11043 Derby, St. Mary, NBR wagon 17515, side view 26/6/1919 Goods

DY11044 Derby, St. Mary, NBR wagon 17515, end view 26/6/1919 Goods

 

It's possible that the person making these entries may have made a mistake and, having written four entries referring to a NBR wagon, simply written NBR in error for MR for the last two. So if our photo is DY11043, entered in the register on 26/6/19, that fits with a chalk date 21/4/19. 

Thank you for this and all the comments in your other post. Very helpful as always.

Do you believe this was a 'how to load casks' picture? 

If it's an entry error in the register, does it mean it was not taken at Derby? If it was not taken at either Liverpool Brunswick or Wirksworth, the sheet must have been removed to take the picture (or there was no sheet), as must the ticket from the holder. 

Is it possible to see the photos from the register? I can contact the Study Centre if that is the best way. 

Do you know how the photographic plates arrived at Kidderminster? The scan I received from there has more marks and scratches than the one which appears in Midland Wagons. 

I would like to browse the Kidderminster catalogue too but I'm not sure if that is possible. 

I have already made the number plate for 17215. However, if we can unravel the mystery, I shall be pleased to put on the correct number of 17515. 

I would also like to see DY11044, not least to see if there is any other writing on it. 

[Compound2632]

46 minutes ago, Grahams said:

Do you believe this was a 'how to load casks' picture? 

 

That is my suspicion. But I've found no sign of a Midland staff booklet on the subject - though the GW appendix used a similar photo, but of a different D305! (see Nick's blog post linked above.)

 

49 minutes ago, Grahams said:

Is it possible to see the photos from the register? I can contact the Study Centre if that is the best way. 

Do you know how the photographic plates arrived at Kidderminster? The scan I received from there has more marks and scratches than the one which appears in Midland Wagons. 

I would like to browse the Kidderminster catalogue too but I'm not sure if that is possible. 

 

My understanding is that not all the photographs recorded in the register have survived - at least, not the original plates. The MRSC has prints of many but by no means all of the Derby officials; I think cataloguing is still in process. But searching the online catalogue is the first step. Not all photos have thumbnails there, because not all have yet been scanned.

 

A large proportion of the MRS photo collection is housed at Kidderminster Railway Museum, since they are set up to distribute copies of photos in a way the Study Centre is not. David Postle at KRM can supply MRS photos if one quotes the KRM number given in the MRS online catalogue, along with the MRSC catalogue number.

 

 

[billbedford]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

So if our photo is DY11043, entered in the register on 26/6/19, that fits with a chalk date 21/4/19. 

 

Would chalk marks have lasted two months, or did 1919 have a particularly dry spring?

[Grahams]

5 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 

Would chalk marks have lasted two months, or did 1919 have a particularly dry spring?

I believe the implication is that it was the date of entry in the register rather than the date the photo was taken.

[Grahams]

15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

But searching the online catalogue is the first step.

I confess that finding items in the online catalogue is something I find particularly difficult, even if I know they exist.

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, billbedford said:

Would chalk marks have lasted two months, or did 1919 have a particularly dry spring?

 

Or is that supposed 4 actually a 6? Or did the siderail provide shelter from the elements? Or were the register entries made some weeks after the photo had been taken?

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, Grahams said:

I confess that finding items in the online catalogue is something I find particularly difficult, even if I know they exist.

 

Ah, but it's the things you come across while looking in vain for the thing you're hunting down!

[corneliuslundie]

If the GWR is anything to go by (withdrawn wagon register) it could be anything up to six months between the event and it being recorded in a register.

Jonathan

[Grahams]

2 hours ago, magmouse said:

@Grahams - that is a seriously impressive model, and shows what can be done in the larger scales.

 

As @Compound2632 mentioned, as well as the discussion thread on roping, I wrote up my 7mm scale build of a GWR 4-plank loaded with casks here:

 

 

The same photos as you are using were my main reference points, as well as the GWR rule book appendix, which gives some detailed instructions on the transport of casks with various contents.

 

Nick.

 

Thank you Nick. 

I've now read your article on your GWR 4 plank. Really excellent model. Very informative too. I now found a crown knots video on YouTube and will have a crack at that.

Your philosophy of making wagons as portraits matches what I have in mind too. I could realistically model a small yard in 5 inch gauge in my garden but operating it with a steam engine would be a challenge. I cannot come to terms with a driver 11.29 x scale. 

Have you sheeted your barrels? What does the GWR guideline say about that? 

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Grahams said:

What does the GWR guideline say about that? 

 

Rules, not guidelines, pace Elizabeth Swann.

[Grahams]

2 hours ago, JustinDean said:

This is a lovely model and peaked my interest (pardon the pun) as I live about 100 yards away from where Charles Wright was located. 
I’m sure you’ve seen this entry on the Wirksworth page but just in case you haven’t this may be of interest :

http://www.wirksworth.org.uk/b53-cwri.htm
 

Jay

Thank you. 

Yes I have seen that page. It appears there is a heritage centre in Wirksworth who are planning a display about Charles Wright and Sons Ltd. I shall be in touch with them. It would be good to have some pictures of the ends of the casks to know what to print on them. 

[Grahams]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Rules, not guidelines, pace Elizabeth Swann.

What does the rule say? 

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Grahams said:

What does the rule say? 

 

Dunno - I've not got a copy of the GW General Appendix...

[magmouse]

3 hours ago, Grahams said:

What does the rule say? 

 

The appendix to the rulebook (I have the 1936 edition) details how to load and secure various casks according to size and contents. It is silent on the matter of sheeting.

 

There is a separate section on sheets, but it mostly covers arrangements for distribution, repair, and so on. There are some general requirements for the fitting of sheets to loads, but again the appendix is silent on what loads should be sheeted.

 

My feeling with the rules is there are some things that are not explained, seemingly on the basis they are widely known. Having gone to some trouble to model the casks, scotches, ropes, etc. on my model, I suspect Stephen @Compound2632 is right that casks would have been sheeted once loaded as per the photos we have both been using for reference. It makes life a little less interesting for modellers though!

 

Nick.

[jwealleans]

Would empty casks be sheeted, being of less interest to the thirsty ruffian?

[magmouse]

9 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

Would empty casks be sheeted, being of less interest to the thirsty ruffian?

 

Possibly not, though it is worth bearing in mind the sheeting also protected inflatable contents (including straw packing) from sparks. Ideally, we would find a picture of a loaded wagon in transit - in general terms, most of our photographic evidence comes from official shots showing loading methods, or general pictures of goods yards. Photos of goods trains on the move rarely offer the detailed views of loaded wagons we would like to see.

 

Nick.

[Andy Hayter]

Today whisky is bottled locally (relatively). Was that not the case in pre- and grouping periods?

 

And further, would empty barrels be returned?  Plenty of new ones to be had then as now.