More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[MarcD]

In the lightmoor list there is a W H Shaw of Haslingdon (near Huddersfield) with two references KT9 Pg 75 and KT13 Pg 114 the latter has a reproduction of the photo along with 3 pages of info on the company. Interestingly the caption on the photo states that the loco is a LYR 0-6-2T.

Copyright on the photo John Alsop and for the book Keith Turton

[jamie92208]

Thanks Marc.  The guy on FB has posted several photos from books which is something I don't like.  It's obvious that Keith Turton got the spelling g wrong, which I can well understand.  Haslingden is where the collierieswere is  in Lancashire.  The L and Y list has at least 30 wagons bought and registered by Shaw in 1893 and 1894 all built by either Heywood or Ashbury..  Numbers range from 260  to 324.

 

Thanks.  

 

Jamie

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

I think W H SHAW is mentioned in the Larkin books as well.

 

I'll have a look later, but here's one.

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/-aaj023--shaw-w-h--haslingden--12t-7-plank-s-e--432-.html

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, MarcD said:

In the lightmoor list there is a W H Shaw of Haslingdon (near Huddersfield) with two references KT9 Pg 75 and KT13 Pg 114 the latter has a reproduction of the photo along with 3 pages of info on the company. Interestingly the caption on the photo states that the loco is a LYR 0-6-2T.

Copyright on the photo John Alsop and for the book Keith Turton

 

11611 was renumbered in 1924 and withdrawn in 1929 so might help with dating.

 

https://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&type=S&id=406262033&loco=278

 

 

Jason

[jamie92208]

Reading the text in The post above I have done Keith Turton a disservice.  He spells Haslingden correctly so it may be a transcription error in the Light oor list. 

 

Jamie

[MarcD]

The wagon is of a pre-23 design. Which doesn't help. I would dought the location being Glasson Dock as I would question if a LYR tank would have been allocated to Lancaster shed (either one). I could be wrong though.

[57xx]

On 08/09/2023 at 13:40, Rail-Online said:

Yet another 'corner of a neg' image reveals a MR wagon number..........

 

Cricklewood 1931. A nice Caley van as well (is that a number on the end?)

 

Tony

 

Going back to this,  the D1666 (?) in the middle appears to be an example of a repaired wagon with the repairs painted in smudge.

[MrWolf]

That picture of the Lanky tank was taken at the north end of Lancaster Castle station turning onto the Glasson Dock branch.  

Ex L&Y tanks came after grouping, before WWI, LNWR coal tanks shredded at Lancaster did much of the work, in the late 1920s LNWR 2-4-2 tanks appeared.

 

It's also featured in the book Lancaster's line to the sea. A history of the Glasson branch of the LNWR by Dave Richardson and published by the Cumbrian Railways Association.

 

I've had a look at the traffic listings within and managed to glean the following regarding coal traffic pre 1922.

 

There is an illustration of a rake of dumb buffered wagons on the dock (unfortunately there's a very nice ship in the way.) These belonging to Bickershaw Colliery.

 

Other companies listed as having coal wagons on the branch are:

 

Garswood Hall Colliery - Wigan

Cross, Tetley & Co (Bamfurlong & Mains Colliery) - Wigan

Crawshaw & Warburton - Shaw Cross Colliery (On GNR Ossett branch)

Samuel Thompson & Co - Lancaster. 

 

I have a photo of the above company's wagon, although it is lettered Kendal that I can post if it is of interest?

 

James Mitchell - Todmorden

 

Circa 1922 The Lancaster Corporation Gas Works obtained it's own wagons from Ince Waggon & Ironworks Co.

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by MrWolf
Missed a bit!

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

I think W H SHAW is mentioned in the Larkin books as well.

 

I'll have a look later, but here's one.

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/-aaj023--shaw-w-h--haslingden--12t-7-plank-s-e--432-.html

 

 

Jason

 

Unfortunately not.

 

Definitely a familiar livery though.

 

 

Jason

[MarcD]

3 hours ago, MrWolf said:

That picture of the Lanky tank was taken at the north end of Lancaster Castle station turning onto the Glasson Dock branch.  

Ex L&Y tanks came after grouping, before WWI, LNWR coal tanks shredded at Lancaster did much of the work, in the late 1920s LNWR 2-4-2 tanks appeared.

 

It's also featured in the book Lancaster's line to the sea. A history of the Glasson branch of the LNWR by Dave Richardson and published by the Cumbrian Railways Association.

 

I've had a look at the traffic listings within and managed to glean the following regarding coal traffic pre 1922.

 

There is an illustration of a rake of dumb buffered wagons on the dock (unfortunately there's a very nice ship in the way.) These belonging to Bickershaw Colliery.

 

Other companies listed as having coal wagons on the branch are:

 

Garswood Hall Colliery - Wigan

Cross, Tetley & Co (Bamfurlong & Mains Colliery) - Wigan

Crawshaw & Warburton - Shaw Cross Colliery (On GNR Ossett branch)

Samuel Thompson & Co - Lancaster. 

 

I have a photo of the above company's wagon, although it is lettered Kendal that I can post if it is of interest?

 

James Mitchell - Todmorden

 

Circa 1922 The Lancaster Corporation Gas Works obtained it's own wagons from Ince Waggon & Ironworks Co.

 

 

 

Yes please on the Thompson wagon. I'm wondering if they also supplied coal on the Furness line at carnforth, arnside etc.🤔

[MrWolf]

29 minutes ago, MarcD said:

Yes please on the Thompson wagon. I'm wondering if they also supplied coal on the Furness line at carnforth, arnside etc.🤔

 

It wouldn't surprise me as they also ran out of Kendal.

This image is from Lancaster's line to the sea. A history of the Glasson branch of the LNWR by Dave Richardson. The image is from the Cumbrian Railways Association Private Owner Collection.

You should be able to get a lot of useful information from them: www.cumbrianrailways.org.uk

 

 

Quote:

"Wagons belonging to the Lancaster coal factor Samuel Thompson & Co would have been a common sight on the Glasson Dock branch.

For many years the firm had establishments in Lancaster, Preston and Kendal and it appears that each had its own wagons, lettered accordingly.

In the absence of a good picture of a Lancaster based wagon, this view of one from Kendal will have to suffice.

Simply replace the word "Kendal" with "Lancaster".

These wagons are said to have been painted red with black ironwork and white lettering shaded black.

The motif was a white disc edged in black with a red cross."

[MrWolf]

I've had the picture under the magnifier and deciphered some of the lettering on the door:

 

When empty to:

Featherstone Main Collieries near Pontefract L & Y & MID

To (illegible) Haigh Moor (Illegible, possibly "House")

 

https://www.fevarchive.co.uk/article/featherstone-main-colliery/

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by MrWolf
Added link.

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

When empty to:

Featherstone Main Collieries near Pontefract L & Y & MID

To (illegible) Haigh Moor (Illegible, possibly "House")

 

So the route to Lancaster is over the Midland via Skipton.

[MarcD]

Very interesting I have produced the exact same wagon as a kit. The only things missing are the Burnett's build plate and axle boxes.

Marc

Edited September 27, 2023 by MarcD

[MrWolf]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

So the route to Lancaster is over the Midland via Skipton.

 

It would certainly seem so.

If I had to suggest a route for a Kendal bound coal train circa 1914, it would be Skipton to Hellifield, Settle Junction to Clapham Junction, Ingleton Midland to Ingleton LNW, Low Gill Junction to Oxenholme Junction and finally Kendal.

Lancaster wagons would turn West at Clapham to Wennington Junction and down the Little Midland to Lancaster Green Ayre. 

From there up the link line used by the Midland electrics from the Morecambe branch to Lancaster Castle and over the Glasson Dock junction.

[jamie92208]

So that's another one for Green Ayre for me to have a go at.  Does anyone know where their yard was in Lancaster.  As to the Illegible it may well have read, Haigh Moor,House and Steam. All grades of coal.  Haigh Moor was one of the major seams in the Featherstone area.  Funnily enough my daughters street, built on a former colliery site a few miles north, is Haigh Moor...

 

Jamie. 

[MarcD]

The Kendal wagon could have got there via carnforth which would be less shunting moves.

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, MarcD said:

The Kendal wagon could have got there via carnforth which would be less shunting moves.

 

I too was thinking the Lune Valley rout sounded a bit too convoluted. But with Thompson having depots at Lancaster, Kendal, and Preston I'm now having my doubts about Midland via Skipton - could the route be a more southerly one - L&Y to Preston, then up to Lancaster and Kendal by the LNWR?

 

Re. the W.H. Shaw wagon with red lettering shaded black, I'm wondering if this might be unpainted (varnished) wood?

[MR Chuffer]

22 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

L&Y to Preston, then up to Lancaster and Kendal by the LNWR

"On January 1st, 1905 by arrangement with the LNWR, a L&Y through train was introduced from Rose Grove to Carlisle hauled by a Rose Grove 0-8-0 alternately with a LNWR loco. A similar train left Nelson for Carnforth nightly...." Railways around East Lancashire by C. Richard Wilby. Quite obviously a move to reduce Midland S&C mileage, relations at Colne end on junction between the L&Y and the Midland were rarely cordial and this lasted well into LMS days. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by MR Chuffer

[WFPettigrew]

11 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Pontefract L & Y & MID

I suspect that the onward route would depend which of these two got their hands on the loaded wagon ie which way it came out of the colliery. Upthread we were discussing routing and the general feeling was the originating railway would keep hold of the wagon for as long as possible to maximise their share of the revenue.

 

So either via Skipton or Rose Grove, and possibly even varying from over week to the next.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, WFPettigrew said:

I suspect that the onward route would depend which of these two got their hands on the loaded wagon ie which way it came out of the colliery. 

 

This gives rise to visions of banditry; I suspect the choice of route was decided rather more sedately by the colliery and/or customer on the basis of the rates offered by the two railway companies, with the appropriate labels being attached to the wagon.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Compound2632

[jamie92208]

From memory the Wennington and Carnforth route might well be the one for Kendal.  I thi k that Kendal was served by a trip working from Carnforth.  IIRC The last steam hauled freight in 68 was a Kendal trip from Carnforth. 

 

Jamie

[Aire Head]

Had a look at my 1955 WTTs for the area there are 4 goods trains Northbound to Carnforth from the Leeds area.

 

00:45 Class J from Stourton Down Sidings MX

10:15 Class J from Stourton Down Sidings

17:20 Class H from Hunslet Down Sidings

22:20 Class J from Wharncliffe Branch Sidings

 

Now I accept that this will be a good 50+ years adrift of what most people are looking at however when researching the Aire Valley Line I have noticed that traffic flows don't significantly change and the 1955 ones are what I have access to at this time.

 

So my reckoning is that any wagons from Featherstone would travel to Stourton yard where they would be sorted, Vehicles for Kendal would then be sorted into a Carnforth train, where upon arrival at Carnforth they would be sorted into the Kendal train.

 

A simple routing involving only 2 companies and a minimal amount of sorting on route.

 

 

[Grahams]

An update on my D305 'whisky wagon' in 27mm/ft scale, based on the wagon in Plate 76 of Midland Wagons Vol 1 by Bob Essery. I have a high resolution scan of the photograph, kindly supplied by the Kidderminster museum (krm Photo/086843). 

I'm aiming for a wagon maybe 4 years into the nominal 6 year cycle. The grey in the picture shows as darker than most of the other wagons in view. There is darkening round most of the ironwork which I assume was rust bleed onto the grey but it could also be dirt, probably a combination.

The Monarch spring door controllers function! I was not over-hopeful on that but they worked first time on both doors. They are not sprung, although they could be. I don't know why I am still surprised that exact replicas of the Midland drawings fit and function. 
Transfers are on and the first attempt at the chalk script destination writing. The picture doesn't show a ticket in the clip but I believe that was a requirement so maybe that had not yet been added when the photograph was taken.
The rust will need a bit of toning down and the inside wood colour is a never-ending job to make it look right (whatever 'right' is).
The transfers are just their plain bright white at the moment so they will receive some dulling down.

The white rectangle on the door is a 'SHUNT WITH CARE' label. I've googled and searched but not found one with the exact layout of letters. All the searches resulted in red letters on a white background so that is what will feature unless someone can show different colours for a Midland label. 

Adjusting the brightness, contrast, etc in Adobe Lightroom seems to show a chalked date ending in 19 (21.4.19 perhaps??) on the solebar. I wonder if that could indicate a hint of a rough date for the picture?

6 casks require weathering now. I need to decide what was written on them, both the chalk and presumably the lettered ends.

I also need to decide how to secure the casks in the wagon. They are clearly roped although the ropes look a bit slack and half-hearted. A picture of some similar casks (sorry, can't remember where I found it) sitting on what appear to be coiled ropes

would offer one way although I would have expected some sort of timber chocks to be another. Advice on all this would be gratefully received.

I have some information on the whiskies Charles Wright and Sons Ltd in Wirksworth was bottling and use that information to input. 
I assume the number 10 on the end of the headstock was for the shunters to select the correct siding. Do we believe it would feature on both sides? Also on the wagon ends? I'm assuming the destination writing would be duplicated on the other door but I'm not sure. It depends on the purpose of it. 

All input and comments are most welcome, particularly constructive criticism.

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Grahams
Added a picture and sorted the picture positions out

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, Grahams said:

I also need to decide how to secure the casks in the wagon. They are clearly roped although the ropes look a bit slack and half-hearted. A picture of some similar casks (sorry, can't remember where I found it) sitting on what appear to be coiled ropes

 would offer one way although I would have expected some sort of timber chocks to be another

 

The coiled rope plus the roping was sufficient to hold the casks in place; in fact the use of hard scotches was deprecated, see Para 26 (A) (i) (c) here. (Thanks to the Barrowmore Model Railway Group for making these useful documents freely available.) 

 

31 minutes ago, Grahams said:

I have some information on the whiskies Charles Wright and Sons Ltd in Wirksworth was bottling and use that information to input. 

 

That is interesting. I had been sceptical that whisk(e)y, which would have been a commodity vulnerable to theft, would have been conveyed in an open wagon, but I see now that my scepticism was misplaced. These casks have presumably come through the port of Liverpool and, if American, import duty paid before loading on the wagon. (I have in mind the bonded stores the company had at various major goods stations, which as I understand it were used for the storage of goods - principally alcohol - on which duty had not yet been paid.) I wrote (e) in recognition that these casks might be from Ireland, in which case import duty would not apply. See also Para. 120 here. As stated there, the load would be sheeted before the wagon left the goods station at Liverpool, so if modelling a wagon loaded with whisky casks in a train, any discussion of rope coils or weathering the casks is moot! On the other hand, for a display model, or one posed as a feature in a goods station model, these things do want to be got right. 

 

38 minutes ago, Grahams said:

I assume the number 10 on the end of the headstock was for the shunters to select the correct siding. Do we believe it would feature on both sides? Also on the wagon ends? I'm assuming the destination writing would be duplicated on the other door but I'm not sure. It depends on the purpose of it. 

 

One sees such chalked numbers on various parts of wagons. As you say, almost certainly shunter's marks indicating which siding in the marshalling yard. My suspicion is that exactly where they were written depended on what was more convenient given the way each yard, or each gang of shunters, worked. I can't see that there would have been anything gained by making such marks in more than one place?

 

See @magmouse's topic from earlier this year:

 

I can't recall if they had a separate blog post on the loaded wagon.