More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[MikeOxon]

4 hours ago, Pete Haitch said:

Newbie question - sorry - are the vans with roof hatches, 'Henson Patent' wagons? Asking as I'm trying to produce some GWR Henson vans and finding pictures hard to come by. First batch (including an improbable grey one) awaiting transfers and Dullcoat.

 

I have written about Henson's patent, as applied on the broad gauge GWR, in my blog at https://www.rmweb.co.uk/blogs/entry/25862-broad-gauge-covered-van/

 

Mike

 

[billbedford]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

But who was "G" with his 903 wagons?

 

Since it appears full of dunnage could it be an internal Vickers wagon?

[MR Chuffer]

On 10/09/2023 at 09:56, Compound2632 said:

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 88-2014-0083, DY6321.]

 

No. 1665 - one of the batch of ten engines fitted with Joy valve gear -* with a 29 ft 4-wheel first of 1875 and a D529 25 ft 4-wheel passenger brake van - from one of the later batches with 8 ft radius arc roof rather than the 10 ft radius of the first.

 

All one needs for a special train. At the principal stations, there would be one or maybe two passenger engines working as station pilot and ready to take over a scheduled train in the event of an engine failure. There would also be some spare passenger carriages nocking around, for strengthening purposes. There might even be a family saloon or similar on hand, if one was lucky.

 

I've repeated before the story I had out of the Bulletin on the Alpine Garden Society about Reginald Farrer, pioneer of rock gardening, returning home to Ingleton from a plant-hunting expedition in the Far East. He got as far as Skipton but had missed the last train on to Ingleton. He ordered a special, which was ready in well under three hours. It no doubt helped that his uncle was a director of the Midland. 

 

*No it's not. it's the penultimate of the thirty engines of the 1562 Class. The Joy gear engines were the 1667 Class, Nos. 1667-1676, the only engines built during Johnson's tenure as Locomotive Superintendent to be withdrawn before his retirement, being replaced by ten engines of the 150 Class.

The D529 25 ft 4-wheel passenger brake van in this photo, can anyone provide more information or other photos? I see it has the old style guards lookout so how long did this variant last? No drawing appears on the LMS Society MR carriages drawing list (that I can find) and I drew a blank on the Midland Railway Study Centre (- but I am old...). Thanks

[Worsdell forever]

14 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

.. and also the NER - there's a G2 there at the far end of the cut of 3 nearest the camera.

 

As others have said, no. But there is a C2 open in the next to last siding top right.

[Compound2632]

21 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm not sufficiently confident of the number of the lowside wagon: 1 6/4? 4/6? 1/23? 2/9?

 

This refers back to the Barrow photo posted a couple of pages back. A correspondent who reads but does not post here has sent me a sharper image of the numberplate, from which it is clear that the number is 16619. Added to the list!

[WFPettigrew]

56 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

the number is 16619. Added to the list!

 

Have you or your silent contributor worked out whether this is a D305 or a D818?  My amateurish reading of Essery suggests the former but?

[Compound2632]

26 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

Have you or your silent contributor worked out whether this is a D305 or a D818?  My amateurish reading of Essery suggests the former but?

 

D305, Drg. 1143, Lot 682:

 

22 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Again, can't see below the solebar but it is to Drg 1143 (side stop-blocks and short brake lever). However, it lacks the 7' 0" x 9" x ¼" iron plate covering the bottom half of the inside of the end (a feature currently lacking from any of my models). according to one copy of Drg. 1143 [MRSC 88-D0155] this was discontinued for wagons built using new ironwork from October 1907; this and the lack of large wooden doorstop on the solebar implies we are looking at one of the 1,000 wagons of lot 682, which had Morton brakes with right-facing lever on both sides.

 

A D818 would definitely have the Monarch sprung door controllers - as did D305s built subsequent to Lot 682, Drg. 3208. If it only has one door controller per side, then it is certainly a D818, though some may have had two.

 

Ref. Stephen Lea, "Low side goods wagons part II - twentieth century", Midland Railway Society Journal No. 79 (Summer 2022) pp. 14-21.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Compound2632

[billbedford]

3 hours ago, MR Chuffer said:

The D529 25 ft 4-wheel passenger brake van in this photo, can anyone provide more information or other photos? I see it has the old style guards lookout so how long did this variant last? No drawing appears on the LMS Society MR carriages drawing list (that I can find) and I drew a blank on the Midland Railway Study Centre (- but I am old...). Thanks

 

For most of the MR NPCS, the first place to look is Midland Railway Carriages Vol 2 by Lacie and Dow Which has diagrams and official photos. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by billbedford

[MR Chuffer]

4 minutes ago, billbedford said:

Midland Railway Carriages Vol 2

Thanks, useful to know where to look but a bit pricey for only a passing interest in MR NPCS duckets

[billbedford]

There's one for £20 on AbeBooks at the moment :

 

https://www.abebooks.com/9780906867365/Midland-Railway-Carriages-Volume-Two-0906867363/plp

Edited September 12, 2023 by billbedford

[MR Chuffer]

8 minutes ago, billbedford said:

£20 on AbeBooks

You're right, the cheapest by far but my interest in duckets doesn't stretch to that much commitment, I could buy one of your interesting pre-grouping wagons for that price...

Edited September 12, 2023 by MR Chuffer

[MR Chuffer]

14 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

duckets

Doh, I went back to the original photo and bought up the MRSC search page again - a different one to before - and now I've found some stuff. I said I was old!! I'll read through but you can discount this query for now. Thx

 

PS "The small side guard's lookouts or duckets, introduced in early 1902..." Item Number: 99-0300, I have my answer.

Edited September 12, 2023 by MR Chuffer

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, MR Chuffer said:

The D529 25 ft 4-wheel passenger brake van in this photo, can anyone provide more information or other photos? I see it has the old style guards lookout so how long did this variant last? No drawing appears on the LMS Society MR carriages drawing list (that I can find) and I drew a blank on the Midland Railway Study Centre (- but I am old...). Thanks

 

Yes, as Bill says, Lacy & Dow is the starting point. These were the Midland's standard passenger brake vans in the last quarter of the 19th century, up to the introduction of the D530 31 ft 6-wheel clerestory brakes in 1896. The brake compartments of passenger-carrying carriages did not have duckets, but these passenger brake vans did. The history is broadly:

 

Drg. 58 of July 1874 [MRSC 88-D0009]. This applies to the 169 vans built to orders placed in 1875-6 with the trade and 55 built at the old Derby Etches Park works in 1875-6. Four of these were sold to the S&DJR.

 

Drg. 58 and Drg. 348 of Nov 1877 [No copy at MRSC]. Drg. 348 was for a new arrangement of the underframe. This applied to 150 vans built at the new C&W works as Lots 11 and 19. 

 

Drg. 58 and Drg. 456 of Jan 1880 [MRSC 88-D0160]. Drg. 456 was another new underframe design. This applied to 25 vans built as Lot 37 ordered in Nov 1879.

 

Drg. 562 of June 1882 [MRSC 88-D1883]. It is unclear to me exactly what combination of drawings the ten vans of Lot 28 for the Midland Scotch Joint Stock were built to, but the next ten, built by Ashbury in 1882, were to this new drawing (as is noted on the drawing). The significant visible change was the change from 10 ft radius roof, giving 7' 1" internal height, to 8 ft, giving 7' 4" height - a change that had been made for passenger carriages three years earlier. so although Lacy & Dow doesn't explicitly say so (the change of roof height is mentioned) I believe this drawing applies to the remaining 189 vans built from Lot 96 of 1884 to Lot 345 of 1894. 

 

I have the 51L / Wizard etched kit for these vans; much is made in the instructions of alternative parts for the Drg. 348 and Drg. 456 but there are only ends for the 8 ft radius roof!

 

MSJS No. 8 of Lot 28 sports the 10 ft radius roof:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64397.]

 

@Chas Levin, note the light appearance of everything below solebar level. @billbedford has suggested whitewash.

 

Cudworth accident victim No. 287 has the higher roof:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 67027.]

 

I was very puzzled by this photo:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 61778.]

 

... until it dawned on me that it has been printed the wrong way round!

 

 

Higher roof, gas lighting (fitted in the 1890s) - 20th century condition.

[wagonman]

On 11/09/2023 at 12:51, WFPettigrew said:

 

I guess the bottom line will be, err, the bottom line.  And as well as "simpler" it was also probably cheaper to go round the coast by ship, compared to the cost of carrying all the timber across the country by rail, which is really why they would have done it?!

 

It was definitely cheaper to send stuff by sea than by land – hence Tyne coal was still being shipped to ports in North Cornwall in the mid C20.

[MR Chuffer]

36 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Lacy & Dow is the starting point

Very clear, Stephen, I'll end the day much wiser than I started. I too have the Wizard kit, as yet unmade.

 

And don't you love the Furness Railway photos featured up thread, such wagon owners diversity, a wagon spotters dream.

[wagonman]

23 hours ago, Simond said:

frankly I think the BoE calculator is not telling the whole truth...  If one assumed a constant 6% inflation, it would be more than £5440, and I imagine it would be possible to get a helicopter to Aylesbury for that.

 

Indeed you could – helicopter hire is around £800 per hour (flying time) but you'd have to go to Battersea to board it. Flying time includes time taken to get from its base to/from Battersea.

 

For a definitive answer, ask Mr Sunak. He seems to be an expert in these things!

[billbedford]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

note the light appearance of everything below solebar level. @billbedford has suggested whitewash.

 

Photographic grey was a mixture of whitewash and carbon black which would wash off easily. 

[billbedford]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

These were the Midland's standard passenger brake vans in the last quarter of the 19th century, up to the introduction of the D530 31 ft 6-wheel clerestory brakes in 1896.

 

The M&SWJ also had some very similar vans to these. The only difference was that the tops of the duckets were sloping planks rather than curved in. 

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, billbedford said:

The M&SWJ also had some very similar vans to these. The only difference was that the tops of the duckets were sloping planks rather than curved in. 

 

M&SWJR passenger stock built after 1894 was very Midland in appearance - following the pattern of Clayton's arc roof stock - with some being direct copies of Midland diagrams, others "inspired by"! Following the one-off brake composite No. 26, built by Birmingham RC&W Co., they were mostly from Oldbury but some, including the three 25 ft brakes, from Midland RC&W Co. One wonders what the design process was - whether there was any borrowing of drawings from Derby, or whether drawings in the technical press were used, or the various firms' drawing office staff had a day out at New Street with notebook and measuring stick!

 

In addition to the different design of the top of the duckets, the M&SWJR vans lacked the dog box. On the Midland, dogs were not permitted in passenger compartments. Was the regulation different on the more solidly rural M&SWJR? (Though guards compartments in ordinary Midland carriages were dogboxless too.)

 

The Oldbury carriages included two saloons that were copies of the Midland D465 picnic saloons. Barnsley (from where this information comes) has a photo of one in 1927 plain unlined chocolate and cream livery , which is most disconcerting!

 

Ref. Mike Barnsley, Midland & South Western Junction Railway Vol. 3 Carriages and Wagons (Wild Swan, 1995).

[65179]

On 11/09/2023 at 12:51, WFPettigrew said:

 

I guess the bottom line will be, err, the bottom line.  And as well as "simpler" it was also probably cheaper to go round the coast by ship, compared to the cost of carrying all the timber across the country by rail, which is really why they would have done it?!

 

When I started looking at wagon loads for trains going via the GC and CLC round the bottom of Manchester (early 1950s) I was a little surprised to see that I could comfortably have very similar looking loaded wagons of timber going in both directions. Presumably from Liverpool/Manchester or Grimsby/Hull docks.

 

Simon

[Pete Haitch]

18 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

I have written about Henson's patent, as applied on the broad gauge GWR, in my blog at https://www.rmweb.co.uk/blogs/entry/25862-broad-gauge-covered-van/

 

Mike

 

Many thanks for the pointer. Pete.

[Compound2632]

Sankey Archive. This one is out-of-period - delivery of the Windermere steamer Teal (1936) or Swan (1938) at Ramsden Dock sidings, en route from Vickers:

 

 

An interesting collection of LMS (I think all) special wagons but the presence of a GW match truck is interesting. Were such wagons common user?

Edited September 13, 2023 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Sankey Archive: "Coupling Competition, Furness Railway, Early 20th Century":

 

 

Caption Competition: "Now try that at 4 mm scale."

 

All Furness wagons, I presume? Perhaps ones outside the wagon works awaiting attention? not fresh out of the paint shop, at any rate!

[Compound2632]

Time for a little gentle fun at the Science Museum Group's expense. This is captioned "Liverpool goods depot, 1932":

 

 

[Embedded link to Derby collection at Science Museum Group website.]

 

DY 12660. The date is a simple typo, should be 1922, but what's the other glaring error? 

[MarcD]

It in reverse the MR 3plk in the foreground has back to front RM's