More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

34 minutes ago, figworthy said:

Sovereigns

 

Not infallible. There's the tale of the group of Stockport businessmen returning home from London. Not wanting to have the faff of going in to Manchester Central and back out again, they offer the driver of their train a sovereign to stop the train at Stockport. Driver duly takes their gold. 

 

As they approach Stockport, they start to gather up their belongings, but there's no sign of the train stopping. At Central, they go up to the driver to remonstrate. "Don't know what you're taking about, Governors" says he, "I only came on at Derby."

[Chas Levin]

22 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Clayton's bogie family carriages of 1879:

 

 

 

A very attractive  vehicle, IMHO!

I'm curious about the colours below the solebar, though I realise it may just be the effect of the film stock.

What colour are the wheel centres? It looks like the same colour as the whole of the wheel backs.

Is it the same colour as the bogie sides? I think not, but it might be and the apparent difference might be due to the angle at which the light is hitting the two surfaces.

Are the tyres painted black?

What colour are the axleboxes, those quite prominent springs and the stepboards?

Are all these colours in place for photograpihic recording purpose, in the same way as locos ere often photographed in grey?

Edited September 10, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

I'm curious about the colours below the solebar, though I realise it may just be the effect of the film stock.

 

i think that with the bogies at least, we're looking at something that has been done for the purpose of photography. The bogies would be black in service. Teak wheel centres, though, were varnished.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Compound2632

[MrWolf]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

i think that with the bogies at least, we're looking at something that has been done for the purpose of photography.

 

I don't know enough about such matters to say for certain, but I'd agree with you that the chassis components look like they're in photographic grey.

[Aire Head]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

In the Skipton Minerals Inwards Ledger I've been looking at, most coal came from collieries in this area, especially those connected to the North Midland line, so it's not surprising to find them further west along the same route

 

A regular working well into the 60s is to Barrow from that same area. Frequently described as carrying significant amounts of coke too.  A quick glance at the 1955 WTT for between Skipton and Leeds shows multiple mineral trains to Carnforth too.

 

While I appreciate it's a bit outside the period you look at it I do find it interesting to see what traffic flows persisted.

[Chas Levin]

On 10/09/2023 at 20:14, Compound2632 said:

 

i think that with the bogies at least, we're looking at something that has been done for the purpose of photography. The bogies would be black in service. Teak wheel centres, though, were varnished.

 

On 10/09/2023 at 20:19, MrWolf said:

 

I don't know enough about such matters to say for certain, but I'd agree with you that the chassis components look like they're in photographic grey.

I did think that might be the case. Not sure I've seen whatever's been done to the wheel centres and backs before though, even for photographic purposes. I also wasn't sure if these coaches had teak wheel centres - thanks for clarifying.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Chas Levin

[jamie92208]

4 hours ago, MarcD said:

Does anyone know what the PO wagons are?  Don't think I have them on my list of Po wagons on my list of PO wagons on the Furness.

Marc

I'lsee what can find out Marc.  I suspect that it will be Beadman built wagons that we don't yet know about. 

 

46 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

A regular working well into the 60s is to Barrow from that same area. Frequently described as carrying significant amounts of coke too.  A quick glance at the 1955 WTT for between Skipton and Leeds shows multiple mineral trains to Carnforth too.

 

While I appreciate it's a bit outside the period you look at it I do find it interesting to see what traffic flows persisted.

They were the famous Barrow babies which took coke from the Barrow collieries and coke ovens near Barnsley t  to the steelworks in Barrow.  I believe that the colliery/coke oven complex was owned by the steel company, hence the name.  The coke wagons, all with coke raves were bright yellow with black lettering.  I believe that the train continued into the late 50's.  I have a memory that there is more I formation out the traffic on one of the Bellcode series of books about Railways around Barnsley. 

 

Jamie

[Aire Head]

9 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

I'lsee what can find out Marc.  I suspect that it will be Beadman built wagons that we don't yet know about. 

 

They were the famous Barrow babies which took coke from the Barrow collieries and coke ovens near Barnsley t  to the steelworks in Barrow.  I believe that the colliery/coke oven complex was owned by the steel company, hence the name.  The coke wagons, all with coke raves were bright yellow with black lettering.  I believe that the train continued into the late 50's.  I have a memory that there is more I formation out the traffic on one of the Bellcode series of books about Railways around Barnsley. 

 

Jamie

 

It lasted into the 60s by which time it was mainly the 20T LMS coke hoppers. Every image I've seen of the working it has been in the hands of a 4F.

[WFPettigrew]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I can see Monckton and Old Silkstone, both in the Barnsley / Normanton area.

 

Quite a few more wagons from these two pits in the bigger shot as well as that crop.  (And all in different liveries to the examples available from the likes of POWsides, gnashes teeth!)

 

In the crop - just - is a metal hopper from Carnforth Ironworks bottom right. 

 

Plus elsewhere in the full picture, one WHDavis hire wagon, one of the Dalton Coop fleet awaiting repair at the wagon repair shop alongside the sidings along with what is probably two of the Swarthmoor and Ulverston Coop wagons with their unusual (for south of Scotland) cupboard doors.   

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[Compound2632]

Just now, WFPettigrew said:

Quite a few more wagons from these two pits in the bigger shot as well as that crop.  (And all in different liveries to the examples available from the likes of POWsides, gnashes teeth!)

 

POWSides doing later liveries - per photographs in Turton.

 

[WFPettigrew]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

later liveries

But, but... I thought the world ended in 1923?!

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

But, but... I thought the world ended in 1923?!

 

No: as every Midland enthusiast knows, it just got bigger.

[phil_sutters]

The S&DJR had this smart saloon, with a variety of compartments, and as one might expect it is labelled TO BE RETURNED TO BATH. The right hand end compartment has double droplight doors - perhaps for luggage and portering staff? Would the number 6 be just a number in the general carriage numbering scheme, or would have it been in a separate saloon listing, which would imply they had or had had six or more saloons? This one was built  at Highbridge in 1886 and lasted until August 1932.

This up-market stock does seem more than tangential to the d299 title of this thread.

Caption under the Cheddar strawberry siphons photo, shown previously, gives rabbits as another export from Mendip.

Edited September 11, 2023 by phil_sutters

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

No: as every Midland enthusiast knows, it just got bigger.

 

Where's the "eye roll" emoji for a reaction when you need it?!

[WFPettigrew]

In the last few days the 15,000 images of the Sankey Collection have been made available online.  This archive was shot by a father and son who had a photographic business in Barrow-in-Furness, and the collection depicts all manner of life in the area.  The Sankeys were used as an official photographer by the Furness Railway, so trains, and ships in Barrow docks feature prominently. They produced postcards of more "newsworthy" events - such as this image. 

 

It shows the Cunard ship SS Scythia leaving Barrow on 21 Mar 1921.  The FR's tugs Furness and Cartmel are hard at work.

 

Also, in  Crossfields timber yard in foreground, are some wagons of MR interest...!  Hopefully these are new additions to your number lists Stephen!

 

Neil 

[Penlan]

2 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

......timber...

With all the other images we've had recently, it appears large scale (1:1 😎) deforestation is nothing new. 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

 

I find it fascinating to compare this vehicle with the equivalent Midland vehicle:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64342.]

 

In fact I made the comparison just under a year ago:

 

 

I would add to that list of differences that I think The S&DJR saloon has the lower, 10 ft radius, roof that Highbridge persisted with long after Clayton had moved to an 8 ft radius, c. 1879, giving 3" greater headroom. Garner's Register gives the length as 32 ft; since a SR diagram number is recorded, D648, I assume that dimension is reliable; scaling off the photo, it seems to be, matching a 2 ft width for the passenger doors, but the wheelbase is 20 ft, rather than the 22 ft of the Midland vehicles.

 

Garner lists two other first class saloons: No. 8, built at Highbridge the year before No. 6, and only 30' 2" long but with the higher arc roof. This also survived to receive a SR diagram, D646; and No. 9, details unknown. The only other saloons recorded are two third class picinic saloons, Nos. 89 and 108 (the latter might be first) built at Highbridge in 1887 and 1891; a photo of No. 89 is reproduced [DY 8461]; it is unlike the Midland picnic saloons in its fenestration and in lacking a luggage compartment. These two were SR diagram D647, despite which Garner places a ? against his listing of them as 31 ft long.

 

So it looks to me to be the case that No. 6 was unique (unless No. 9 was the same). As to numbering, I suspect what is going on is that there were originally separate number lists for firsts, seconds, thirds, composites, and passenger brake vans, but apart from the latter these were at some point consolidated into a single list. (This was the case on the Midland, with the consolidation and renumbering taking place in 1902, I believe.) This would explain the multiple vehicles listed up to No.13, though it's also evident that some were replacements of others. Second Class was abolished on 1 July 1893 (the same date as on the LSWR, I presume) at which point any solely second class carriages would have been renumbered in the third class list; there is a trace of this in Garner's Register, with 4-wheel second No. 86 coming after the Cravens thirds and third brakes Nos. 60 - 84 of 1891 (No. 85 being a blank - perhaps another second).

 

So I think from Garner, one can make a stab at a first class list, bearing in mind that the carriages listed are in most cases not the first firsts to bear their numbers:

 

1 - 22' 6" 4-wheel 3-compt first of 1860s vintage [DY4244* / DY8468]

2 - as No. 1, No. 2A by c. 1891 [JB Radford photo] and replaced by a 6-wheel first.

3 - as No. 1

4 - as No. 1, but replaced by 30' 0" 6-wheel 4-compt first of 1886 (now restored)

5 - 22'0" 4-wheel first of c. 1878 [LGRP 13838, DY4252*] replaced by 30' 0" 6-wheel 4-compt first after 1890 [DY826]

6 - 32' 0" 6-wheel first class saloon of 1886 [DY8452]

7 - 30' 0" 6-wheel 4-compt first of 1887 

8 - 30' 2" 6-wheel first class saloon of 1885 [DY4246*]

9 - saloon first, details unknown

11 - first, details unknown [DY4258*]

12 - first, details unknown [DY4246*]

 

I think it's reasonable to assume that Nos. 2, 11, and 12 were 30 ft 4-compt firsts like Nos. 4, 5, and 7, since the formation B/T/F/T/B seems to have been standard for stopping trains on the main line by around 1890. The DY photo references with asterisk are from Garner, described as negatives destroyed 1920s - 1930s, do not correspond to the Derby Registers listing on the MRS website. However, I think I have found more than one instance where I have seen a corresponding photo reproduced (e.g. the LGRP photo of No. 5), presumably from a surviving print, so there's always hope...

 

I've looked at the photos of 4-wheel composites Nos. 4 and 12 and thought: "Ratio GW composite sides...". No 4 is also listed by Garner as a destroyed DY negative but at the same time illustrated by LRGP 13837, as a first/second composite c. 1890. A photo of No. 12 is reproduced as "authors collection" in Colin Maggs' Highbridge in its Heyday, as a first/third composite; I suspect this is a post-1893 photo, this one also starting out as a first/second composite.

 

For better understanding of the S&DJR's carriage and wagon fleet, I'm feeling the urge to take a look at the Reports & Accounts, which I think are at TNA RAIL 1110/418 for 1876-1912.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Compound2632

[jamie92208]

28 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

In the last few days the 15,000 images of the Sankey Collection have been made available online.  This archive was shot by a father and son who had a photographic business in Barrow-in-Furness, and the collection depicts all manner of life in the area.  The Sankeys were used as an official photographer by the Furness Railway, so trains, and ships in Barrow docks feature prominently. They produced postcards of more "newsworthy" events - such as this image. 

 

It shows the Cunard ship SS Scythia leaving Barrow on 21 Mar 1921.  The FR's tugs Furness and Cartmel are hard at work.

 

Also, in  Crossfields timber yard in foreground, are some wagons of MR interest...!  Hopefully these are new additions to your number lists Stephen!

 

Neil 

I hope that some PO wagons may emerge from this collection. 

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

38 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

Also, in  Crossfields timber yard in foreground, are some wagons of MR interest...!  Hopefully these are new additions to your number lists Stephen!

 

No. 106513 added to the list. Unfortunately the axleboxes aren't visible but much of the 106xxx series was given over to D299 and D351s built in the mid-1890s, though there are a couple of D360 vans built no earlier than 1899 in there.

 

I'm not sufficiently confident of the number of the lowside wagon: 1 6/4? 4/6? 1/23? 2/9?

Again, can't see below the solebar but it is to Drg 1143 (side stop-blocks and short brake lever). However, it lacks the 7' 0" x 9" x ¼" iron plate covering the bottom half of the inside of the end (a feature currently lacking from any of my models). according to one copy of Drg. 1143 [MRSC 88-D0155] this was discontinued for wagons built using new ironwork from October 1907; this and the lack of large wooden doorstop on the solebar implies we are looking at one of the 1,000 wagons of lot 682, which had Morton brakes with right-facing lever on both sides.

 

We should of course say hello to the LNWR D84 10-ton open on the left and the NBR 3-plank with fixed sides on the right.

 

Is there a reference number for this photo and how does one search the collection online? 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Compound2632

[WFPettigrew]

43 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm not sufficiently confident of the number of the lowside wagon: 1 6/4? 4/6? 1/23? 2/9?

 

I think it is 15519, but not sure. 

 

44 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Is there a reference number for this photo

 

Image 1979

 

46 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

how does one search the collection online? 

 

https://www.sankeyphotoarchive.uk/collection/

 

 

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, Penlan said:

deforestation is nothing new

 

Barrow docks had a thriving import trade of timber from the Baltic (yes, you would think an east coast port would be easier to reach but...) and Canada back in the day... 

 

 

[Compound2632]

Just now, WFPettigrew said:

Barrow docks had a thriving import trade of timber from the Baltic (yes, you would think an east coast port would be easier to reach but...)

 

Norse domination of the Irish Sea in the early Middle Ages was achieved by a sea route via Shetland, Orkney, and the Western Isles that was made up of hops of two days' sailing - only one night on the open sea - so there's perhaps some deep-seated tradition at work there? The same methodology applied to getting to the Greenland settlements via Shetland and Iceland, but I wouldn't claim that as the origin of Canadian timber importation via Barrow!

[WFPettigrew]

57 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

I hope that some PO wagons may emerge from this collection. 

 

Yes Jamie, there are some. 

 

Ref 7706 - in Barrow yard with the Town Hall clock visible in the background:

 

 

Ref D410 (this is a crop of that) - Whitehaven Harbour:

 

 

Ref 2560 - North Lonsdale Ironworks Ulverston with a good load of coke wagons newly arrived from County Durham:

 

[MrWolf]

If You're sailing in from the Baltic and the cargo you are carrying is destined for the northwest part of the UK, it's far simpler to dock somewhere like Barrow, rather than dock on the east coast and haul the cargo cross country by train.

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

If You're sailing in from the Baltic and the cargo you are carrying is destined for the northwest part of the UK, it's far simpler to dock somewhere like Barrow, rather than dock on the east coast and haul the cargo cross country by train.

 

Hence also Baltic timber imports at Bridgwater, which I think we've had mentioned.