More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Grahams]

On 28/08/2023 at 22:36, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm not convinced. In Midland Style, Dow writes: "From about 1900 these units [ballast wagons] were painted red oxide ... According to Henry Crocker, snow ploughs and companion vehicles such as ballast brakes were also painted red oxide."

 

So, whatever he means by red oxide, in Dow's mind this group of vehicles were all the same colour. We have, I think, two possible pigments: red lead, a form of lead oxide which contains lead ions in a mixture of two oxidation states; and oxide of iron or iron oxide, which contains iron ions in a multiplicity of oxidation states, the colour of the pigment depending on the balance of these - resulting in a wide range of colours. One supposes that in the late 19th century, it was widely understood what pigment was meant by oxide of iron. But that's a bit beside the point. What matters here is that Dow equates ballast wagon red with snow plough red. Snow ploughs were undoubtedly Locomotive Department items and hence one expects them to be painted the same way as cranes. Ergo, ballast wagons were locomotive (undercoat) red...

 

It is of course possible that Dow was mistaken or being inadvertently misleading in using the same term for the colour of both ballast wagons and snow ploughs.

 

I've been hunting unsuccessfully for a picture of the Bassett Lowke model Dow mentions - though of course the colour of a 100-year-old model will not be that reliable a guide! 

My D818 ballast wagon was my first 5 inch gauge wagon and even before I had found the works drawing on the Study Centre website, so please forgive the detail inaccuracies which now leap out at me. I notice two of these were taken before it obtained builder's and number plates. 

I have never seen evidence of a D818 ED wagon but then again, I have never seen any evidence there were none 🤣. 

Having read Dow and others but well before this recent discussion, I decided to brush paint with genuine red oxide, the smelly stuff. It's a bit gooey but in 27mm/ft it works. Probably not OK in 4 or 7mm. Being thick, it even allowed me to scumble the surface to achieve some grain effects. 

This was then weathered with my usual acrylic washes and dry brushing. 

The weathering has dulled down the rather bright original red colour. 

On the basis of the discussion here, it looks like the red oxide has worked to produce a finish as it might have looked. 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Grahams said:

Having read Dow and others but well before this recent discussion, I decided to brush paint with genuine red oxide, the smelly stuff.

 

What is this genuine smelly red oxide?

[Grahams]

49 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What is this genuine smelly red oxide?

Indeed. Jeep, 1942 GPW for the restoration of. Smelly and thickening after an hour in the open.

[Siberian Snooper]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm going to need to do an Alan Gibson order as not only do I need little wheels for the D333 implement wagon and big Mansell wheels for the siphon and other projects but I also find I am out of ordinary solid spoke wheels. It doesn't seem so long since I bought a batch of split spoke wheels...

 

The implement wagon will want a load. A traction engine or whatever would be (a) a bit of a hackneyed gimmick and (b) probably sheeted over, so I'm thinking about furniture containers - which had a thopic to themselves a while back but are current on Mike @airnimal's topic:

 

Don't forget that Colin from Alan Gibson, will be at Scaleforum at High Wycombe over the weekend of 23/24 September.

 

 

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Linked post is in media res - scroll back a bit (dodging the timber trucks and wedding) and there's a link to the container topic, too.

 

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

Don't forget that Colin from Alan Gibson, will be at Scaleforum at High Wycombe over the weekend of 23/24 September.

 

Am aware - probably Sunday for me, family commitment on the Saturday, clashing with our club's local exhibition at Earley St Peters Church Hall, unfortunately. After ExpoEM in Bracknell (20 minutes), it's my nearest finescale show (30 minutes).

 

I posted my order off yesterday, with cheque, so let's see if my wheels arrive before Scaleforum!

Edited September 5, 2023 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

I'm not going to be beaten by these transfers, or rather, my incompetence in using them. 

 

I've had another go at the S&DJR wagon, having rubbed down and re-gloss varnished the surface:

 

 

Reading the Railtec instructions again, carefully, I noted the recommendation to seal with a light mist of acrylic / water based varnish. That sent me off to check my Humbrol can, thinking it might be enamel, but it is acrylic. I suspect that my previous failure was due to (a) not waiting long enough for the transfer adhesive to cure thoroughly and (b) making too vigorous an application of varnish. So I will put this wagon well out of reach for several days!

 

I have had a bit more success with the Methfix transfers, scrupulously obeying the instructions:

 

 

I did find that, allowing a good bit over 10 minutes after pressing the transfers down to applying water to release the tissue paper carrier, although the transfers lay flat and the tissue peeled away cleanly without lifting the transfers, the transfers were still sliding about, so I re-positioned them and pressed down again, this time with a tissue to absorb the water.

 

This will join the S&DJR wagon in a safe place out of temptation's reach for several days!

 

I had had a go with these same Methfix transfers some months ago; I had more success with Ms than with Rs:

 

 

so I have a superfluity of Ms. Unfortunately, Ministry of Munitions wagons are outside my period:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of HMRS ACF6001.] Those really are dead ringers for the Midland M, unlike the skinny Ms seen on other Ministry of Munitions wagons.

 

Googling Ministry of Munitions wagons, I came across this exchange in Hansard:

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1920/mar/29/ministry-of-munitions-railway-wagons - which usefully tells us the size of the MM fleet in the years immediately after the Great War.

 

According to the Railway Returns, at 31 December 1902 the Manchester & Milford railway owned 114 wagons. i don't suppose their wagons were lettered M M in 21" characters?

 

None of which alters the fact that I'm out of E D transfers.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Compound2632
typo.

[Dave Hunt]

I spoke with David White at Guildex and told him that both 7mm and 4mm modellers want the ED transfers for which I did the artwork ages ago. He said that he would see to it; we shall see……

 

Dave

[Dave Hunt]

When I apply Methfix transfers I leave them for at least an hour after pressing them down and the tissue goes opaque before washing the tissue off with water.

 

Dave

[MarcD]

If you have old pressfix transfers that have last their sticky they can be treated as if the are methfix and they stick fine. 

Marc

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, MarcD said:

If you have old pressfix transfers that have last their sticky they can be treated as if the are methfix and they stick fine. 

 

Yes, but my trouble is getting the Methfix ones to work... (!)

[Chas Levin]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, but my trouble is getting the Methfix ones to work... (!)

Morning Stephen, they are a little different to other types, no question.

 

I found them difficult at first too, so I isolated a number from the larger HMRS sheets that I knew I'd never use (railway companies on the mixed pre-grouping sheet or vehicle types that I don't model) and used them up as practice pieces. It only took a few before I got the knack.

The 3:1 watered down meths is key as well. I've heard it said that the 3 parts meths to 1 part water ratio should be kept to quite strictly, because more or less meths will affect how well the glue is activated; I can't comment on that as I just stuck to the 3:1.

 

I always like using meths, because my dad used to use it to clean track - and to clean lots of other mechanisms, workshop items and so forth - so the smell takes me right back...

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

The 3:1 watered down meths is key as well. I've heard it said that the 3 parts meths to 1 part water ratio should be kept to quite strictly, because more or less meths will affect how well the glue is activated; I can't comment on that as I just stuck to the 3:1.

 

Yes, for my latest attempt - aiming to follow the instructions to the letter - I used a plastic pipette to measure out the quantities of meths and water, though I did wonder if the proportions would change in my saucer due to the meths evaporating faster than the water!

 

This and Dave's advice about waiting an hour before applying water to remove the tissue paper, rather than the ten minutes stated in the instructions, will be my next attempt. 

[jwealleans]

I find Methfix very hard to use as well.    Try to follow the instructions very closely and only do one side at a time, not moving the wagon/coach afterwards while they dry.   A coat of varnish very quickly afterwards should secure them. 

 

Not that it'll help, but even difficult to apply HMRS Methfix transfers are better than the old Slaters ones which start to disintegrate as soon as you look at the packet.

[Dave Hunt]

I’m surprised you say that as I’ve got some Slaters Methfix transfers that are at least 30 years old and they are OK providing a stronger meths solution is used.

 

Since I hate varnishing models once the dreaded painting is finished I don’t usually cover the Methfix transfers once they are applied and in over 40 years I haven’t had any problems apart from some wear where the models are handled.

 

Dave

Edited September 6, 2023 by Dave Hunt

[Worsdell forever]

It is possible to use methfix without meths. lay the transfer face down as usual on a glossy surface, I only use Klear or it's current formula, add water and WUL and leave it until the tissue loosens then gently slide it off with a brush, position the transfer where it's needed and gently dab AROUND it with a cotton bud, dabing on it will lift it, make sure it's in the correct position then leave it, after a few minutes give it a gentle brush over with Klear, if it moves reposition it then leave it alone, maybe giving it another coat later. I find this way so much easier.

 

 

[Compound2632]

HM Government advises that all 4 mm scale pre-grouping modellers should maintain a strategic reserve of Slaters kit 4027 in case of national emergency:

 

 

The reason for calling on my strategic reserve and putting this together now is simply my determination to get the hang of these Methfix transfers, noting that the sheet I have has the LOCO COAL ONLY lettering.

 

A round of Archer or Railtec rivets is called for and I'm thinking of bending up a bit of wire for the bottom door release catches...

[jwealleans]

If I may drift the thread again: I've been asked to identify a kit, but have failed.   I'm told it came with no identifying marks or packaging, the castings are described as 'average' but it has sprung W irons.

 

 

 

Anyone like to hazard a guess?

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by jwealleans

[Compound2632]

35 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

Anyone like to hazard a guess?

 

Those end pillars are long way apart.

[jamie92208]

I can tell it's a van of some description if that helps. 

 

Just trying to be helpful. 

 

Jamie

Edited September 6, 2023 by jamie92208

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

Anyone like to hazard a guess?

 

What are the dimensions? (I don't think one's supposed to say vital statistics these days.)

[corneliuslundie]

Surprising to find sprung W irons with a white metal kit. That may be a clue or they might not be part of the original kit.

Is it one of the old Model Wagon Co kits perhaps, though those I had didn't have sprung W irons?

Jonathan

[jwealleans]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

What are the dimensions?

 

I've added extra photos to my post.    Looks to be around 62mm/15'3" long, 32mm/8' wide and 22mm/7'6" high at the eave.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, jwealleans said:

I've added extra photos to my post.    Looks to be around 62mm/15'3" long, 32mm/8' wide and 22mm/7'6" high at the eave.

 

Thanks. Usually when I don't recognise a van in turns out to be one of the varieties of big L&Y van but not in this case. 

[corneliuslundie]

It looks to be 15 ft 6 in. long and just over 9 ft wheelbase perhaps 9 ft 3 in. That gives plenty of options. as i suspect it is really 9 ft.

Jonathan

[Wagon nut]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Those end pillars are long way apart.

Certainly are - it's quite intriguing....