More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[airnimal]

Trying to clear out a pile of books and drawings because we are down sizing to a smaller house I came across 5 photo copies of wagons that appear to be damaged. I do not remember where they came from or who gave them to me but I will remove them if I have infringed the copyright.  I do not know if this has been seen before but it may be of interest.  The other wagons are GW, NB, SECR,LBSCR.

Edited September 1, 2023 by airnimal
Added one to many.

[Compound2632]

While I'm on this train of thought, there is a lovely photo of 1552 Class 0-6-0T No. 1988 in June 1903, still with its low-height dome to clear the low bridge on the GE branch to the docks (though that bridge had been raised - or the track lowered - in the mid-1890s) - with the levers of the Salter valves sticking out on both sides looking like the moustache of an Italian tenor [R.J. Essery & D. Jenkinson, Midland Locomotives Vol. 3 (Wild Swan, 1988), plate 174 p. 103]. The engine is standing in front of the Childs Hill (i.e. Cricklewood) mess and tool vans, a pair of converted 29 ft carriages of 1875. For a long time I had thought of these as being grey but now I'm less sure - they may well be red, but lacking shine, look a much less dark tone than the engine.

 

@Dave Hunt, what colour are you going to paint your Kirtley breakdown train vans?

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, airnimal said:

 

Thanks - a new D299 number for my little list. It's after early 1917, as the wagon number is painted under the M, but it still has the extra vertical strap between the end pillars - only my second sighting of this feature post-Great War. 10A axleboxes and brakes one side only. The buffers and buffer guides do look to be accident-damaged, so I wonder if this is an official photo in a how-not-to-treat-your-wagon series? (I've not found a match in the Derby Registers.) It would be interesting to see the others!

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Penlan said:

That's why the LNWR was THE PREMIER line 😎

 

Yes, of course, first in the field I will admit.

 

But the point is, the Midland saw what the LNWR was doing and did it better...

[airnimal]

As requested.  I must had had these over 30 years. 

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, airnimal said:

As requested.  I must had had these over 30 years. 

 

Interesting. Must have been quite a rough shunt! The NB wagon has 16 in its crescent, indicating the year in which it last received any attention, so I'm guessing not very long after the end of the Great War. The GW wagon has X's which I presume denote non-common user.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Compound2632

[wagonman]

On 28/08/2023 at 10:48, drduncan said:

Actually I think some were branded ‘Fish traffic only’ rather than ‘milk and fish’ but I also remember seeing a 6w siphon so branded being loaded with milk churns, but I can’t remember where I saw it! 
D

 

 I know the photo. It was taken somewhere on the Salisbury branch – Wylye I think.

[Dave Hunt]

26 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

@Dave Hunt, what colour are you going to paint your Kirtley breakdown train vans?

 

Rightly or wrongly I am going to paint the two tool vans I am currently making crimson lake, which colour the crane, match wagon and mess/riding van are painted. My contention is that since the crane and match wagon were that colour, the locomotive department would quite possibly have painted the whole ensemble to match. It should be noted that in Johnson's time there was obviously a great deal of  flexibility allowed regionally in locomotive department liveries, as evidenced by the colours and lining of, for instance, the well-known Weatherburn and Manchester locomotives and the lining out of some 15 ton cranes, and I am merely extending this to include the rest of the train.  

 

30 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, of course, first in the field I will admit.

 

But the point is, the Midland saw what the LNWR was doing and did it better...

 

....... because it was The Best Way. And let's not forget brick arch fireboxes, dropping second class, Pullman cars, successful application of compounding etc.

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

33 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

successful application of compounding

 

That one is certainly a red rag to a bull!

 

[Compound2632]

I usually enjoy doing transfer lettering but sometimes things frustratingly don't work out:

 

 

The S&DJR transfers are waterslide from Railtec: https://www.railtec-models.com/showitem.php?id=4282. They went on very nicely yesterday evening, even though I failed to spot that 649 is a pre-aligned number on the sheet until I had carefully lined up individual digits. But today, after Humbrol matt varnish from a rattle-can, they've curled up their toes on me.

 

I had thought I was out of ED transfers but found I had a set on a part of an HMRS Methfix sheet I'd had in exchange for the Furness part of the same sheet (but Pressfix) from @WFPettigrew. I've struggled with Methfix but this time I very carefully followed the instructions to the letter and they seem to have worked, on this first side. But the second side was a disaster - transfers not adhering and eventually curling up. I'm not at all sure what I did differently that second time - possibly I didn't press them down firmly enough?

 

In both cases, I'd taken the usual precaution of applying gloss varnish - Humbrol, with a brush - first, though it didn't take very well to the satin Precision red.

 

Oh woe is me!

[sir douglas]

2 hours ago, airnimal said:

 

 

 

I cant make out whats going on with the coupling on this one

[Dave Hunt]

About two years ago I did some artwork for Slaters with E  D and LOCO COAL ONLY and sent it to David. Since then I have had several assurances that they are being done but nothing has appeared. If he is at Guildex tomorrow I'll have another go at him.

 

Dave

[WFPettigrew]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

transfers not adhering and eventually curling up.

Aside from the absolute need for gloss paint * as a base, the thing that usually causes me problems is when the I manage to end up with the decal on wrong way up, in other words so the face that is against the tissue sheet ends up face down not face up.

 

This is very easy to do with any mirror letters like E and D - and even more so if you do the waterslide trick of floating the decal plus tissue in the meths mix first. Clue, the instructions say not to do this for a reason!! But even with following the instructions, putting the dry decal onto the model then wetting it, there is still a risk of placing it down wrong way up, as it is very hard with mirror letters to know which way round they are, the tissue coming away with the first load of meths mix, and you're still on a hiding to nothing to get out to stick...

 

Solution I found was to make sure the decal plus tissue when prized off the backing card with a scalpel is done so the tissue curls up somewhat. Then you know that the inside of the curve goes against the model (even when you have dropped it, sneezed and blown it across the workbench etc!).

 

But if none of the above applies for you, sorry if that was a bit of a duff sheet.

 

All the best

 

Neil

 

* gloss not to hide the carrier film as there isn't one, but to allow the glue to bond.

 

 

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

Aside from the absolute need for gloss paint * as a base, the thing that usually causes me problems is when the I manage to end up with the decal on wrong way up, in other words so the face that is against the tissue sheet ends up face down not face up.

 

No, that wasn't it, I am certain.

 

10 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

But if none of the above applies for you, sorry if that was a bit of a duff sheet.

 

No, not a duff sheet, a duff user - I am equally certain!

[Dave Hunt]

I much prefer Methfix to press on or waterslide transfers as usually they are as easy to position properly as waterslide but adhere as well as the best press on. I know that they can be tricky to apply and I'm not 100% successful but I've found that using a slightly stronger mix of meths and water, wetting the area to which the transfer is going to be applied, placing it face down then soaking with the solution and almost immediately firmly pressing it down generally works. However, I have also had problems with old stocks that sometimes behave like Stephen describes and in that case I have tried brushing pure meths  onto the area then placing the transfer and using pure meths again then as the tissue begins to dry out, which is only a few seconds, wet it again with the meths/water mix and press firmly down.  

 

Dave

[airnimal]

 

1 hour ago, sir douglas said:

I cant make out whats going on with the coupling on this one

Sam, all the wagons were photographed because they damaged in some way. The SECR wagon looks like the coupling has been ripped out.

[billbedford]

What's wrong the NB wagon?

[Asterix2012]

5 minutes ago, billbedford said:

What's wrong the NB wagon?

The planks on either side of the end door are split, not sure if that is accident damage or wear and tear.

[billbedford]

Oh yes, and the bottom of the door bulges outwards. 

[Compound2632]

Better progress with the implement wagon:

 

 

I seem to have picked just the right angle to highlight that scuff mark on the deck!

 

 

I've been trying to get my head round the history of the development of these wagons again but it's most confusing, especially the ones built up to 1880. Even the type represented by this model, to Drg. 708, 92 vehicles, showed some changes, being built over a 20-year period. All were built as renewals of old wagons.

 

Lot 190, for 20 wagons, was entered in the lot list on 1 October 1887; Midland Wagons plate 309showing No. 18534, exemplifies their condition, which corresponds to the drawing: 8A axleboxes, numberplate to the left of the V-hanger, builder's plate to its right. I noted above that the Diagrams of various Trucks of Special Construction does not have a diagram for the Drg. 708 wagons but puts their dimensions on the diagram of the lot 43 wagons to Drg. 450; these are absent from the 1889 edition, implying that none of lot 190 were yet in service.

 

Lot 301, for 30 wagons, was entered in the lot list on 30 July 1892. The study Centre copy of Drg. 708 is marked up with alterations for this lot: 10A axleboxes, as one would expect, but also a thickening of the middle bearers (that project below the solebars) from 5" to 6". the return of goods stock at 31 December 1894, Midland Wagons figure 22, shows a total of 64 10-ton implement wagons; if one assumes to 20 of lot 43 and 20 of lot 190 were intact, six of the wagons of lot 301 were still to enter service.

 

There were two more lots of 20, lot 356 of 30 April 1895 and lot 422 of 12 January 1897. There are no specific instructions for these lots on the drawing but shown in red ink is an alteration to the brake gear: the V-hanger is moved 12" to the left of the centre-line of the 11 ft  wheelbase, with the numberplate on its right and builder's plate on its left. The only advantage I can see to this is that a standard push-rod could be used for the left-hand brake block! With the limited selection of photos to hand, one cannot say whether this was implemented at all, but the photo of No. 7720, Midland Wagons plate 311, whilst showing the V-hanger on the centre-line, does show the positions of numberplate and builder's plate swapped over compared to the photo of No. 18534 of lot 190.

 

The final two wagons, lot 647 of 1906, had, according to the drawing, larger journals running in oil axleboxes, and also 3' 4" bearing springs, rather than 3' 6". This paved the way for the two of lot 729 of 1909, which had larger journals again, and hence 12 ton carrying capacity, resulting in a new diagram, D730. Although a new drawing was made, Drg. 3232, I think that in terms of general appearance they were identical to the earlier wagons except for the larger oil axleboxes and long brake lever. A further batch of ten were built in 1914, lot 869; these were to yet another drawing, Drg. 4069, and eight of them were renewals of ex-LTSR implement wagons. A further 40 were built at Wolverton in 1929 - over 40 years after the wagons of this design first appeared - but that's definitely getting beyond my period of interest!

Edited September 1, 2023 by Compound2632

[sir douglas]

browsing old Railway magazine volumes lately, this is from 1901, fold up sheet bars by Mr Tilley of the North eastern Rly, the advantages he states are that not having flats and dips for rain water to sit in as on normal sheeting and the wagon can be loaded and unloaded with only one side of the sheet opened.

 

the concept as shown on wagon 27137

[Compound2632]

31 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

browsing old Railway magazine volumes lately, this is from 1901, fold up sheet bars by Mr Tilley of the North eastern Rly,

 

Interesting; I don't believe there is any mention of this in North Eastern Record Vol. 2, which perhaps suggests it didn't catch on. I wonder whether @Worsdell forever has come across it? By 1901, the Williams patent sheet supporter had already been adopted by the SER and, I think, the LSWR, with the GWR soon to adopt it. Maybe the North Eastern was looking to avoid patent fees. But this device is advertised as enabling the wagon to be loaded while half-sheeted and used as a movable warehouse, both of which were novel ideas, I think, though it must have been awkward getting heavy sacks into the covered corners. 

 

The North Eastern also experimented with a metal cage to increase the height of the sides of its standard open wagon, diagram C2 (per No. 27137 above), wagons so fitted becoming diagram C3 - the fact that a diagram was allocated suggests that there was more than one wagon so fitted and they ran for some time. From the point of view of the skilled wagon-loader, this looks very like an attempt at de-skilling and de-grading the job!

 

There is a pair of drawins in the Derby C&W drawing collection, both claiming to be Drg. 1832 of 13 July 1903, showing similar side extensions fitted to a D299 wagon, but in this case made of timber:

 

 

[Compressed version of scan of MRSC 88-D1885];

 

and with a fixed sheet bar:

 

 

[Compressed scan of MRSC 88-D1816].

 

I've not come across any mention of this in the minutes (if made in quantity it would have required General Purposes Committee authorisation of the expenditure, which would be recorded in the C&W Committee minutes) but it does seem that at least two wagons were so fitted since the note in red on MRSC 88-D1816 reads "Red Dimensions for 2nd Wagon (Order Special Work)" - the red dimensions being all the detail dimensions of the extension frame, the sheet bar being also drawn in red. MRSC 88-D1885 carries a pencil note (that I chopped off when cropping and compressing) "One sent to Messrs Williams & Co." - but was that one wagon, or one copy of the drawing?

 

I've still not got to the bottom of the Midland's trestles and bows for supporting sheets.

[MarcD]

Interesting don't think they would be very much effort to turn one of my 299 kit into one of these.

[Worsdell forever]

On 02/09/2023 at 11:38, Compound2632 said:

 

Interesting; I don't believe there is any mention of this in North Eastern Record Vol. 2, which perhaps suggests it didn't catch on. I wonder whether @Worsdell forever has come across it? By 1901, the Williams patent sheet supporter had already been adopted by the SER and, I think, the LSWR, with the GWR soon to adopt it. Maybe the North Eastern was looking to avoid patent fees. But this device is advertised as enabling the wagon to be loaded while half-sheeted and used as a movable warehouse, both of which were novel ideas, I think, though it must have been awkward getting heavy sacks into the covered corners. 

 

The North Eastern also experimented with a metal cage to increase the height of the sides of its standard open wagon, diagram C2 (per No. 27137 above), wagons so fitted becoming diagram C3 - the fact that a diagram was allocated suggests that there was more than one wagon so fitted and they ran for some time. From the point of view of the skilled wagon-loader, this looks very like an attempt at de-skilling and de-grading the job!

 

Never come across that wagon sheet rail, The cages of course are well known though they only lasted a few years.

[Compound2632]

I'm going to need to do an Alan Gibson order as not only do I need little wheels for the D333 implement wagon and big Mansell wheels for the siphon and other projects but I also find I am out of ordinary solid spoke wheels. It doesn't seem so long since I bought a batch of split spoke wheels...

 

The implement wagon will want a load. A traction engine or whatever would be (a) a bit of a hackneyed gimmick and (b) probably sheeted over, so I'm thinking about furniture containers - which had a thopic to themselves a while back but are current on Mike @airnimal's topic:

 

 

Linked post is in media res - scroll back a bit (dodging the timber trucks and wedding) and there's a link to the container topic, too.