More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

No; I'm trying to avoid offering an opinion as I really don't know!

 

But I wouldn't discount the possibility of GW wagons reaching the Midland "north of Leeds" by way of Bristol, Birmingham, Derby and Leeds, though much depends on the point of origin. 

 

Apologies for my ignorance here, but how exactly did it work in choosing a route for a wagon to go foreign in pre-grouping days?  The GW goods agent at -  say - Swindon gets a load delivered to go to the other end of the country - say Skipton.  There are numerous options for sending it north.  Up to Glos and onto the Midland, to go the long way round via Leeds.  Or either to Hereford onto the N&W, or via Didcot to Birmingham / Wolverhampton and either way so onto the LNW, then LYR and finally the Midland.  Or even more esoteric options like Banbury and GC to go north. 

 

Etc.  

 

Were there company "loyalties" at play here (which you hinted at with LNW vs the CLC), was it purely charged on mileage?  Could companies offer a discounted rate (so even though it may have been more to go Midland via Leeds in this example, the MR could discount to at least match or maybe better the rate of the LNW, for example) to win the traffic? And if so, how did the goods agent on the GW know which way to send, and therefore how much to charge?

 

Sorry to ask a dumb question, that probably has been answered in this thread at least once already... 

 

Neil 

[Compound2632]

Just now, WFPettigrew said:

Sorry to ask a dumb question, that probably has been answered in this thread at least once already...  

 

No, I'd call it a very interesting question: that is, one to which I for one do not have an answer!

[Dave Hunt]

From the reading I have done on the histories of various companies I get the impression that there was a fair degree of inter-company loyalties and 'mates rates' involved but how such things were arranged and charged I don't know.

 

Dave

[MR Chuffer]

1 hour ago, WFPettigrew said:

then LYR and finally the Midland

Didn't need the Midland to get to Skipton as the L&Y ran several goods trains a day through its end-on junction with the Midland at Colne and all the way to Skipton 11.25 miles over Midland metals.

 

1 hour ago, WFPettigrew said:

Were there company "loyalties" at play here

The more I look into this, the more fascinating it becomes. There ought to be a book in this somewhere but I'm suspecting that a lot of the wheeler dealing went on in smoke filled committee rooms - the "Club" anyone? - which probably mitigates against any authoritative account of turn of the century railway politics?

 

My geography of interest, touched on up thread, was Midland traffic out of Liverpool Exchange (via Aintree for goods) over the L&Y to Blackburn and then north to Hellifield, and I believe there were reciprocal rights for L&Y traffic to venture beyond the line to Hellifield and over the S&C, just as they did to Skipton and Bradford. And then I was reading the other day, can't lay my hands on it right now, that around 1908, the LNWR did a deal with the L&Y for goods traffic to head westwards from Rose Grove to Preston eschewing the Blackburn to Hellifield route and there traverse the WCML with a train to Carnforth and one to Carlisle daily.

 

And then there was the 3-way 1907 (yes?) traffic agreement between the LNWR, L&Y and Midland to share traffic to reduce costs.

 

Much intrigue indeed!

[turbos]

There is no definitive answer to wagon routing, unless the customer wants a specific routing then as a general rule the wagon would travel  as far as practicable on the originators lines and then most likely be transferred to their ‘mates’ lines.
There were other factors such as speed, time, engineering work and the whim and prejudice of the goods clerk. The Aberfeldy (Highland Railway) goods clerk would send goods to London by the West Coast route on the first two weeks of the month, the East Coast route on the third week and the Midland Route on the last week as he didn’t want to show favouritism!
Kirkcaldy merchants felt that the NBR over charged them as the NBR had a monopoly in Fife, so would route their goods off the NBR at the first opportunity.

If there is no rule on a routing then any route could be used.

Brian.

[WFPettigrew]

10 minutes ago, turbos said:

as a general rule the wagon would travel  as far as practicable on the originators lines and then most likely be transferred to their ‘mates’ lines

That does seem to get to make a lot of sense and gets to the heart of it.  Thanks. 

 

 

[Rail-Online]

Somewhere I have an official GWR book that lists the default exchange points for traffic from a GWR station to every 'foreign' station.  When I bought it 'blind' it seemed interesting. In reality Bordesley and Acton feature repeatedly!  If I knew where it was (!) I could look up the locations in North Wales/NW but I suspect Whitchurch and Saltney might be shown.

 

Tony 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Rail-Online

[Rail-Online]

And now back to wagon spotting.............

 

 

Seen at Mexborough in august 1946 and surely near the end of its life is this 3 plank D305(?).

 

Tonyat

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

Seen at Mexborough in august 1946 and surely near the end of its life is this 3 plank D305(?).

 

No. 1718; added to my little list! Almost certainly D305 but there's the slimmest of chances it could be one of the 8 ton D818s. But there's another above and behind it that seems to have the short brake lever - is the number off the edge of the print or just off the edge of your crop? A D633A to the right of that - one can just make out the vertical strap midway between end and door - unfortunately the number is just too blurred.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Compound2632

[Dave Hunt]

Is it my imagination or is 17188 through-piped albeit without the hose?

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Dave Hunt said:

Is it my imagination or is 17188 through-piped albeit without the hose?

 

I think not - I can just see a bit of shadow of the further end pillar and everything to the left of that is the next wagon?

[Dave Hunt]

Ah, I see what you mean. Seems my eyesight is going the same way as lots of other bits.... 😥

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

Now for something completely different: my first Specially Constructed Wagon (to use the period jargon) - an implement or traction wagon to diagram D333, Drg. 708, from the kit @k22009 has put together from his etches. So far I have assembled the solebars, headstocks, and inner frame members:

 

 

I won't say too much about how these go together, since it's fully described in Dave's own topic:

 

It's nickel silver, which helps make the soldering a pleasure. I had been viewing the inner frame with trepidation, as the folded-up longitudinals are but-jointed into the middle bearers with just a shallow etched location mark, but I seem to have managed to get everything square enough and straight enough without too much tribulation or burnt fingers, here it is bottom-side up:

 

 

The central section is flat on both top and bottom faces but the tops of the end longitudinals are in the same plane as the top of the central section for only half their length and are sloping upward on their undersides. The first three end longitudinals went on easily enough but the last one gave a bit of trouble! Looking at it top-side up, it looks as if it came out of an Egyptian tomb - one of those Nile boats to take one into the underworld, or whatever:

 

 

This frame is a simplification - on the real thing there were four longitudinals but one would soon run into trouble with 00 back-to-back clearances! The main thing is to replicate what one sees from the side, with the inner frame just visible below the bottom of the solebar.

 

Unfortunately mu usual sources don't turn up a good photo of a D333 wagon (they exist, but not yet scanned) so here's an example of the later D730 wagon, which differed principally in the journal size - giving 12 ton, rather than 10 ton, capacity - and details such as buffersand brakes:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64618.]

 

What I can show is an early diagram, from a sheet of Diagrams of various Trucks of Special Construction, that went through several versions before the Diagram Book was put together; this one is from c. 1902/3:

 

 

[Crop from scan of MRSC 21384].

 

The curiosity is that this diagram represents both the Drg. 708 wagons of lot 190 onwards, 20' 0" OH, 11' 0" WB, and the Drg. 450 wagons of lot 43, 17' 0" OH, 10' 0" WB; the outline is that of the Drg. 450 wagons. The c. 1906 edition gives only the Drg. 708 dimensions (the lot 43 wagons having by that date been withdrawn) but still uses the Drg. 450 diagram:

 

 

[Crop from scan of MRSC 12300].

[jamie92208]

7 hours ago, Northroader said:

The GWR ran a service from Chester to Manchester Exchange by way of Hooton, so it could have been a GWR saloon they used.

Thanks very much to everyone for the replies.  I am baseing my account on memories of a conversation with my father who died in 2004  when he discovered the letter I gave him a copy of the relevant Bradshaw so that he could work out which services the saloon was attached to.  I suspect that the original letter is now in an archive at Huddersfield University but decipher g his index would probably be beyond most people.  I can make some sense of it.  I will see what papers I still have. 

 

Jamie

[MarcD]

I have an ABS 7mm version sat in a box not sure how I'm going to convert it to S7 as there is no provision for any form of springing.

Marc

[57xx]

On 28/08/2023 at 22:36, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm not convinced. In Midland Style, Dow writes: "From about 1900 these units [ballast wagons] were painted red oxide ... According to Henry Crocker, snow ploughs and companion vehicles such as ballast brakes were also painted red oxide."

 

So, whatever he means by red oxide, in Dow's mind this group of vehicles were all the same colour. We have, I think, two possible pigments: red lead, a form of lead oxide which contains lead ions in a mixture of two oxidation states; and oxide of iron or iron oxide, which contains iron ions in a multiplicity of oxidation states, the colour of the pigment depending on the balance of these - resulting in a wide range of colours. One supposes that in the late 19th century, it was widely understood what pigment was meant by oxide of iron. But that's a bit beside the point. What matters here is that Dow equates ballast wagon red with snow plough red. Snow ploughs were undoubtedly Locomotive Department items and hence one expects them to be painted the same way as cranes. Ergo, ballast wagons were locomotive (undercoat) red...

 

It is of course possible that Dow was mistaken or being inadvertently misleading in using the same term for the colour of both ballast wagons and snow ploughs.

 

I've been hunting unsuccessfully for a picture of the Bassett Lowke model Dow mentions - though of course the colour of a 100-year-old model will not be that reliable a guide! 

 

With regard to colours like "red oxide", you also have to distinguish between the pigment itself and the livery. For example, LMS "bauxite" livery was not just bauxite pigment, it also contained a fair amount of black to make the colour a deep brown*, rather than the redder colour raw bauxite is (and what people might expect from later BR bauxite livery). *Assuming Phoenix Precision have got their colour spot on, which I believe they usually do.

 

So, was "red oxide" the name of the livery which only had iron oxide as a pigment or were there other pigments in the mix?

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, 57xx said:

 

With regard to colours like "red oxide", you also have to distinguish between the pigment itself and the livery. For example, LMS "bauxite" livery was not just bauxite pigment, it also contained a fair amount of black to make the colour a deep brown*, rather than the redder colour raw bauxite is (and what people might expect from later BR bauxite livery). *Assuming Phoenix Precision have got their colour spot on, which I believe they usually do.

 

So, was "red oxide" the name of the livery which only had iron oxide as a pigment or were there other pigments in the mix?

 

Indeed. I've assumed that the Midland / LMS crimson lake was not actually made from Dactylopius coccus. 

 

My problem with "red oxide" is that it seems to be an enthusiast's term rather than a technical term - it doesn't specify what it's an oxide of, when there are clearly two possibilities: lead and iron.

[Dave Hunt]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Indeed. I've assumed that the Midland / LMS crimson lake was not actually made from Dactylopius coccus. 

 

My problem with "red oxide" is that it seems to be an enthusiast's term rather than a technical term - it doesn't specify what it's an oxide of, when there are clearly two possibilities: lead and iron.

 

I have some paint that was obtained many years ago by David White from Joseph Masons of Derby. It is actually called Mercedes Red but Masons assured David that it was the same colour that they supplied to the Midland and the LMS. It is virtually indistinguishable from Precision Midland Red.

 

The undercoat specified by the Midland for locomotives built by outside contractors was called oxide of iron. It was described as a purple brown colour.

 

Dave

[MrWolf]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Indeed. I've assumed that the Midland / LMS crimson lake was not actually made from Dactylopius coccus. 

 

My problem with "red oxide" is that it seems to be an enthusiast's term rather than a technical term - it doesn't specify what it's an oxide of, when there are clearly two possibilities: lead and iron.

 

32 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

 

I have some paint that was obtained many years ago by David White from Joseph Masons of Derby. It is actually called Mercedes Red but Masons assured David that it was the same colour that they supplied to the Midland and the LMS. It is virtually indistinguishable from Precision Midland Red.

 

The undercoat specified by the Midland for locomotives built by outside contractors was called oxide of iron. It was described as a purple brown colour.

 

Dave

 

I've had cause to use an awful lot of paint that calls itself "red oxide" in the course of my work and other hobby interests, literally gallons of the stuff.

 

They do vary from dark orange shades to red browns to purplish shades.

 

Is there anything under the RAL or perhaps more usefully, the old BS colour charts to define red oxide?

 

I suspect that it depends on who made it, when they made it and what the chemical composition is. Thirty years ago, much of it was xylene based.

 

https://www.hmgpaint.com/corporate/resources/252/british-standards-bs-4800-colour-chart

 

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by MrWolf
Added link.

[Krusty]

Once upon a time, when I was young and (more) foolish, I looked out the British Standard for red oxide paint – not 381C colour 446, but yer actual red oxide spec (272 or 305: 1952?). It was notable for saying absolutely nothing about the colour – it was primarily a performance and manufacturing spec. AFAIK it was withdrawn several decades ago.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Krusty

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Is there anything under the RAL or perhaps more usefully, the old BS colour charts to define red oxide?

 

I'm not sure that would help, since the colour as defined by the standard is not necessarily what Dow had in mind when he used the term. I feel that he used it rather loosely, because...

 

8 hours ago, MrWolf said:

They do vary from dark orange shades to red browns to purplish shades.

 

8 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

The undercoat specified by the Midland for locomotives built by outside contractors was called oxide of iron. It was described as a purple brown colour.

 

A working assumption could be that the paint applied to cranes, match wagons, mess and tool vans*, snowploughs, the Hellifield and Carlisle snowplow support vans, etc., was simply this undercoat - except in the case of those steam cranes that were given the locomotive red top coat and lined out. 

 

One of the pair of Snow Plough Vans for Hellifield and Carlisle ordered at the request of the Way and Works Committee in October 1895 [General Purposes Committee minute 9008; Carriage & wagon Committee minute 3083].

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64104].

 

In service:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 61228].

 

These replaced a pair of curious vans ordered to be made in May 1887, by placing the bodies of two old passenger brake vans upon the framing of two old locomotive tenders [Traffic Committee minute 24983; Carriage & Wagon Committee minute 2114]:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64642].

 

Hellifield of course. The engines already have the tender cabs that were multiplied during the Great War - there was an article on these in Midland Record. This is probably the best photo going of a Kirtley period passenger brake van!

 

*There is some photographic evidence that some of the mess and tool vans were originally grey:

 

 

Lancaster shed, c. 1900 [Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 60808].

 

Apologies for this digression upon a digression.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Compound2632

[Rail-Online]

A crop of a D299 on an IRS 'free download' image. I suspect a print so no chance of getting a number.....

No second side brakes and a replaced door plank.

 

Tony

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm not sure that would help, since the colour as defined by the standard is not necessarily what Dow had in mind when he used the term. I feel that he used it rather loosely, because...

 

 

 

A working assumption could be that the paint applied to cranes, match wagons, mess and tool vans*, snowploughs, the Hellifield and Carlisle snowplow support vans, etc., was simply this undercoat - except in the case of those steam cranes that were given the locomotive red top coat and lined out. 

 

One of the pair of Snow Plough Vans for Hellifield and Carlisle ordered at the request of the Way and Works Committee in October 1895 [General Purposes Committee minute 9008; Carriage & wagon Committee minute 3083].

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64104].

 

In service:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 61228].

 

These replaced a pair of curious vans ordered to be made in May 1887, by placing the bodies of two old passenger brake vans upon the framing of two old locomotive tenders [Traffic Committee minute 24983; Carriage & Wagon Committee minute 2114]:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64642].

 

Hellifield of course. The engines already have the tender cabs that were multiplied during the Great War - there was an article on these in Midland Record. This is probably the best photo going of a Kirtley period passenger brake van!

 

*There is some photographic evidence that some of the mess and tool vans were originally grey:

 

 

Lancaster shed, c. 1900 [Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 60808].

 

Apologies for this digression upon a digression.

I've not seen that one of Lancaster before I'lhave to try and get alcopy. 

 

Jamie

[Penlan]

On 31/08/2023 at 10:24, Compound2632 said:

...... the Midland is often to be found out playing catch-up with the LNWR!

That's why the LNWR was THE PREMIER line 😎

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

I've not seen that one of Lancaster before I'lhave to try and get alcopy. 

 

Also reproduced in C. Hawkins & G. Reeve, LMS Engine Sheds Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1981).