More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Mikkel]

Oh yes, very nice. I like the shade of the flaps too. All very rustic in a stylish kind of way (ok so I’m romanticising it).

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Oh yes, very nice. I like the shade of the flaps too. 

 

The flaps are Humbrol 70 - they have come out well in that photo but I suspect they should end up greyer if they're supposed to be tarred canvas or some such - wagon sheet colour, with the effect of having stone ballast poured over them?

 

The body colour is Precision P350 MR Crimson Lake (Satin [Dull]). Midland Style says "red oxide". As @Dave Hunt has pointed out, cranes, being the responsibility of the Locomotive Department (irrespective of which department they were allocated to) were painted locomotive red - oxide of iron - and support vehicles - match wagons etc., and in the 20th century mess and tool vans, were painted likewise*. So once Engineer's Department wagons and ballast brakes started being painted red, there's no reason to suppose it was a different colour. So it's locomotive red, with fewer coats of varnish. Others think so:

 

 

[Embedded link.]

[Dave Hunt]

The red of MR locomotives was actually lake (AKA crimson lake) over an oxide of iron undercoat followed by several coats of varnish. David Tee was of the opinion (which is shared by Crimson Rambler and myself) that the much debated 'Locomotive Brown' was simply the oxide of iron with varnish, omitting the lake coating. Since the locomotive brown is sometimes described as brick red as well as purple brown this seems likely as oxide of iron is not the same as red oxide but is a darker colour. Hence the colour of ED wagons, if they were red oxide rather than oxide of iron, would have been a lighter, more 'reddish' hue but if large amounts of oxide of iron paint were available it may have been used and the description in Midland Style giving it as red oxide could be incorrect. I suppose that the bottom line is that there could be some justification for either red oxide or oxide of iron on ED wagons. It is my belief that the Midland's 15 ton steam cranes and other breakdown train vehicles were painted as the locomotives, which, at the time the cranes were delivered, were being painted with oxide of iron undercoat, lake top coats and varnish.

 

Dave 

[phil_sutters]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Perhaps, if you can provide a photo...

This is the clearest and conveniently credits its collator, who credits Lens of Sutton as his source. The headgear suggests an Edwardian scene, although fashions may have changed slower on Mendip. Making the 'chip' baskets would be a doddle for someone with a 3D printer.

Edited August 28, 2023 by phil_sutters

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

This is the clearest and conveniently credits its collator, who credits Lens of Sutton as his source. The headgear suggests an Edwardian scene, although fashions may have changed slower on Mendip. Making the 'chip' baskets would be a doddle for someone with a 3D printer.

 

Yes, all those punnets. I think I might go for something in crates!

[Compound2632]

32 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

oxide of iron is not the same as red oxide but is a darker colour. Hence the colour of ED wagons, if they were red oxide rather than oxide of iron, would have been a lighter, more 'reddish' hue

 

A bit of googling for "iron oxide pigment" and "red oxide pigment" leaves me wondering what, if any, the difference is, chemically. What is clear to me at least is that they are both different in colour from red lead, which, it is my belief, would be the default wagon red on grounds of simple economy. Red lead, it seems to me, leans more towards orange, with red / iron oxide having a bit of a purple cast. Compare the wagon next to the Way & Works wagon in the Butterley photo above.

[Dave Hunt]

Sorry Stephen, you are quite right. I have confused red oxide and red lead. Oxide of iron was the undercoat for locomotives etc. whereas, as you say, red lead was quite likely the paint used on ED wagons unless they made use of the amount of oxide of iron that the locomotive department used. 

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Dave Hunt said:

Oxide of iron was the undercoat for locomotives etc. whereas, as you say, red lead was quite likely the paint used on ED wagons unless they made use of the amount of oxide of iron that the locomotive department used. 

 

I'm not convinced. In Midland Style, Dow writes: "From about 1900 these units [ballast wagons] were painted red oxide ... According to Henry Crocker, snow ploughs and companion vehicles such as ballast brakes were also painted red oxide."

 

So, whatever he means by red oxide, in Dow's mind this group of vehicles were all the same colour. We have, I think, two possible pigments: red lead, a form of lead oxide which contains lead ions in a mixture of two oxidation states; and oxide of iron or iron oxide, which contains iron ions in a multiplicity of oxidation states, the colour of the pigment depending on the balance of these - resulting in a wide range of colours. One supposes that in the late 19th century, it was widely understood what pigment was meant by oxide of iron. But that's a bit beside the point. What matters here is that Dow equates ballast wagon red with snow plough red. Snow ploughs were undoubtedly Locomotive Department items and hence one expects them to be painted the same way as cranes. Ergo, ballast wagons were locomotive (undercoat) red...

 

It is of course possible that Dow was mistaken or being inadvertently misleading in using the same term for the colour of both ballast wagons and snow ploughs.

 

I've been hunting unsuccessfully for a picture of the Bassett Lowke model Dow mentions - though of course the colour of a 100-year-old model will not be that reliable a guide! 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Compound2632

[phil_sutters]

Could it be the ED wagon in the centre of this display? I wouldn't know whether it is a B/L or not, or even the correct scale.

Edited August 28, 2023 by phil_sutters

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

Could it be the ED wagon in the centre of this display? I wouldn't know whether it is a B/L or not, or even the correct scale.

 

Yes, I think so. Dow says O gauge. The black ironwork is spurious - as on the LBSCR wagon and grey Midland wagon; printing onto the flat tinplate, there had to be some fudges. How does it compare in colour with the LNWR gunpowder van?

[phil_sutters]

This is at the original resolution. Bear in mind that these exhibits are behind glass and in artificial lighting. I have used the color cast removal (Photoshop is American) tool, assuming that the LNWR van roof is white, not cream.

 

This is a comparison of two small sections.

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by phil_sutters

[Dave Hunt]

In correspondence I had with Roscoe Turner in the late ‘70s, he stated that the cranes were still crimson lake at the grouping. He actually called it ‘locomotive red’. There is also photographic evidence that at least two of the cranes were lined out, which would only have been done if they were crimson lake, and the match wagons were the same colour. Although I can’t now recall where, I have also seen it stated that the famous Hellifield snow ploughs were crimson lake. Whether locomotive department vehicles were always crimson lake or some that were repainted at times such as when the simplified ‘locomotives brown’ was used could have been in a different colour is, of course, debatable and after goods engines were painted black after 1910…..? Although it must be borne in mind that at least the cranes were still crimson lake in 1923. As to the ED wagons, I have to confess that I have up to now that thought of them simply as being red oxide after 1900 and am willing to consider whatever evidence can be unearthed as to what the colour actually was.

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

This is a comparison of two small sections.

 

 

Trouble is, I don't think its known exactly what colour the LNWR gunpowder vans were and the Bassett-Lowke model is probably the best witness! They look the same to me.

[MR Chuffer]

On 27/08/2023 at 19:55, Compound2632 said:

photograph of a Midland train at Dore and Totley, before 1901

Out of interest, do we know if this Siphon G was travelling West to East or the reverse, and where would the interchange location(s) of GW traffic with the Midland have likely been? Phillips Park or Trafford Park, Manchester, or coming across the CLC from Warrington, for instance.

Edited August 31, 2023 by MR Chuffer
Add info

[Compound2632]

31 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

Out of interest, do we know if this was travelling West to East or the reverse, and where would the interchange location(s) of GW traffic with the Midland have likely been? Phillips Park or Trafford Park, Manchester, or coming across the CLC from Warrington, for instance.

 

The train is southbound, taking the line towards Chesterfield. So the siphon is most likely empty and the next opportunity for exchange with the Great Western would be Bordesley or after that Worcester or Gloucester - but if it's come up from the west country it's most likely going all the way to Bristol. It's an interesting train - a Johnson 2-4-0, with at the head of the train a D459 32 ft family carriage, then the siphon, a D493 31 ft third, then one of the 1875/6 54 ft clerestory composites. What comes next is unclear - another 6-wheeler - but at the rear a D529 25 ft brake. The train may be standing at the up platform rather than in motion. This is before the widening but after the opening of the Dore and Chinley line; one can see that this train is for the Chesterfield line as the engine is standing on the junction.

 

I don't know about points of exchange between the GW and Midland west of the Pennines. The CLC kept itself to itself at Chester and Warrington. I suspect there was very little exchange traffic, the GW and LNW keeping it all to themselves (and the L&Y) as far as possible.

[corneliuslundie]

Could it have been ex Calne sausage traffic? In that case the interchange might well be Bristol.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

39 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Could it have been ex Calne sausage traffic?

 

Fruitless speculation... (!)

 

We've already had some fishy suggestions.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Compound2632

[jamie92208]

The family carriage is interesting to me. My late father found a letter from the 1880's describing a journey from Hooton, IIRC to Weyms Bay fro a holiday on Arran.  A family carriage was hired and the whole household set off, including cook and maid, from Hooton. They were shunted in Manchester, Preston and Glasgow. The same happened for the return journey.  Such workings allow for a family carriage to appear almost anywhere.  Like horse boxes beloved by David Jenkinson.  I have no idea who provided the carriage, perhaps the CLC. 

 

Jamie

[MR Chuffer]

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I suspect there was very little exchange traffic, the GW and LNW keeping it all to themselves (and the L&Y)

Useful information, thanks, but you've unwittingly raised my ultimate interest, traffic exchange in the Northwest. I have 3 GW wagons, amongst ~150 MR and L&Y and including POs on my layout, the GW ones were coming in to East Lancashire in MR trains, via Phillips Park (shared with the LNWR and GC as well as the L&Y) and Blackburn via Bolton. So are you suggesting, these sporadic GW incursions would more likely travel in by L&Y, and it could be via the ELR route (Bury/Accrington)?

[Compound2632]

Just now, MR Chuffer said:

So are you suggesting

 

No; I'm trying to avoid offering an opinion as I really don't know!

 

But I wouldn't discount the possibility of GW wagons reaching the Midland "north of Leeds" by way of Bristol, Birmingham, Derby and Leeds, though much depends on the point of origin. 

[Compound2632]

36 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

The family carriage is interesting to me. My late father found a letter from the 1880's describing a journey from Hooton, IIRC to Weyms Bay fro a holiday on Arran.  A family carriage was hired and the whole household set off, including cook and maid, from Hooton. They were shunted in Manchester, Preston and Glasgow. The same happened for the return journey.  Such workings allow for a family carriage to appear almost anywhere.  Like horse boxes beloved by David Jenkinson.  I have no idea who provided the carriage, perhaps the CLC. 

 

Wasn't Hooton on the Birkenhead Joint, in which case it would have been a LNW carriage, probably, the journey being LNW and Caledonian all the way? But then going to Manchester seems a long way round when they could have been shunted onto a WCML train at Warrington. 

[Northroader]

The GWR ran a service from Chester to Manchester Exchange by way of Hooton, so it could have been a GWR saloon they used.

[Compound2632]

50 minutes ago, Northroader said:

The GWR ran a service from Chester to Manchester Exchange by way of Hooton, so it could have been a GWR saloon they used.

 

As I understand it, a foreign vehicle was on mileage hire to the home company when running over its lines, the home company getting its mileage proportion of the fares - all worked out by the RCH clerks, of course. So in principle it would have made no difference whether the carriage was GW, LNW, or Caledonian. But I wonder if it would have been entirely in the GW's interest to have one of its vehicles off its system for a longish period. There's also the return empty working to consider, though I suppose that was factored into the charge to the travelling party - four first and four third class fares on the Midland in 1903 [Summer TT, Ian Allan reprint, p. xvii]. So my suspicion is that, the carriage having been requested at Hooton, a LNW carriage would be supplied by Chester; it might of course run in the GW train to Exchange.

 

Sometimes just a family carriage was not enough. S. Austin, Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway: A View from the Past (Ian Allan, 1999) p. 77 has a lovely turn-of-the-century-ish photo of an up train approaching Blandford, hauled by 0-6-0 No. 62. it is almost all Midland stock: D529 25 ft brake; two D416 20 ft milk vans, presumably conveying luggage; D516 31 ft composite with luggage compartment converted to lavatories; D458 32 ft family sleeping carriage, recognisable by its raised roof over the passenger accommodation; a North British 6-wheel saloon of some sort; another Midland 6-wheeler, obscured by a telegraph pole; four covered carriage trucks, the leading one of which is to Met gauge; three horse boxes; and at the tail another D529 brake. Clearly some ducal household heading to Scotland for the Glorious Twelfth! But who would it be? What noble seats were on the S&DJR's route, south of Blandford, or adjacent LSW lines?

 

D458 32 ft family sleeping saloon No. 869, one of six built as lot 102 in 1884, along with one for the G&SWR:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64343.]

 

Lacy & Dow record that they were built after the General Manager showed the Traffic Committee plans of a similar LNWR family sleeping saloon, with the observation that the Midland was losing business through not having something similar available. Despite its reputation for being a pioneer in the passenger travel business, the Midland is often to be found out playing catch-up with the LNWR!

Edited August 31, 2023 by Compound2632

[corneliuslundie]

The sausage suggestion was not a joke. There are plenty of photos of Siphons labelled for this traffic. Routes notes in the HMRS Siphons book are Calne-Sheffield; Calne, Stafford & Manchester; Calne, Carlisle & Glasgow; Calne & Manchester

Other traffic was Rabbits Helston to Sheffield Sept 1929/31/2/6 (several Siphons allocated)

And of course strawberries and fish.

Jonathan

 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

The sausage suggestion was not a joke.

 

I wasn't considering the suggestion itself as a joke, rather just indulging my sense of humour at a meat product in a fruit and milk van. I apologise for any offence given. Reading up on the history of C&T Harris Ltd, I learn that their original mainstay was bacon although sausages and pork pies were major lines by the end of the 19th century. (One would hope that on the Midland, Melton Mowbray pork pies were the staple traffic of this type.) The firm's origins lie in Calne being on the drove road for Irish pigs from Bristol to London and its later success down to the adoption of American methods of ice-house curing.

https://moonrakers.com/c-t-harris-calne-ltd/.