More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, drduncan said:

Probably a bit late now, but the K’s kit springs are too short. The should be 6ft (ish). The ones in the kit look like wagon ones in terms of length…

 

Hum, yes, but before too long someone will point out that I need to go round skrawking the rear faces of the slats to give the impression of scale thickness... 

[magmouse]

And for those who might be looking for GWR Siphon info, there is also the series of articles by Jack Slinn in HMRS Journal, in 8 parts, starting Oct/Dec 1982, volume 11 issue 4, p.104. Digitised versions of the journal are now available on the society website - a terrific membership benefit!

 

Nick.

[magmouse]

2 hours ago, MarcD said:

Last night while looking for info in Great Yarmouth's quayside tramways I came across these little beauties.

The photo is dated 1908 which makes it one year before it was bought out by the GCR Photos of LD&ECR stock are very rare. I was under the impression that the LD&ECR’s rolling stock was fairly modern. 3, 5 and 6 plank opens on steel underframes, as well as RCH 7plk on hire. The LD&ECR did have two different wagon liveries one for owned stock where all the letters were straight and parallel. The second for hired stock where the letters sloped. Both being show in LNER wagons Vol.1.

What I think I have identified is:-

1)      4plk dead buffers (on Hire) might have an end door looking at where the lettering starts and stops

2)      4/5plk with a raised end at the closest end and a door on the other (owned?)

3)      Open (possibly owned by CWS (coop wholesale) but it could be GNS (Great North of Scotland) and in that case it opens more questions.

4)      Some sort of Lime wagon.

 

What do people think?

 

Thanks for this picture, Marc. As well as the reasons for its interest that others have noted, the view of the middle wagon loaded with (I assume) bricks is helpful. I had imagined that the load might be higher at the ends, as they would be loaded first, and the remainder placed in the centre, not necessarily up to the height of the sides. This photo corroborates that, and suggests an even less orderly approach to the top few layers of bricks than I had thought (or some have moved in transit).

 

Nick.

[drduncan]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Hum, yes, but before too long someone will point out that I need to go round skrawking the rear faces of the slats to give the impression of scale thickness... 

If they do ask them to show their finished one…so we can play spot the difference…

D

[phil_sutters]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Aha! Not this shade, anyway:

 

 

Built on Airfix mineral wagon underframes c. 1980.

Nobody was around to tell me that 'red' meant 'red oxide' back in the late sixties! Assorted wagons on a variety of chassis. Peco Wonderful Wagons, Kenline, Hornby Dublo etc. The Highbridge-built (prototype & model) Radstock shunter still needs its Salter valves.

Edited August 28, 2023 by phil_sutters

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, magmouse said:

And for those who might be looking for GWR Siphon info, there is also the series of articles by Jack Slinn in HMRS Journal, in 8 parts, starting Oct/Dec 1982, volume 11 issue 4, p.104. Digitised versions of the journal are now available on the society website - a terrific membership benefit!

 

I've not looked at that volume yet but have downloaded the more recent volumes - this is a resource that significantly increases the benefits of membership to one who has only recently joined!

 

Kit has very kindly sent me scans of the relevant pages from the (old) HMRS siphon book. From this, it looks as though conversion from O2 to O1 could be achieved by re-shaping the end profile and making a new single-arc roof, which would at least get round the overhang and thickness of the kit roof. I'm thinking that the spurious thick top frame could be simply cut away between the doors and a thin strip attached to the underside of the roof. 

 

I see that some of these vehicles were designated "milk and fish" - so fish is another possible load for a van heading in the Sheffield direction.

 

2 minutes ago, drduncan said:

If they do ask them to show their finished one…so we can play spot the difference…

D

 

Stakes are being raised here!

[corneliuslundie]

And if you are going to label it "milk and fish" you have to alter the floor so that it can drain. I think some Siphons had floors raised a little in the centre but later ones had a centre gulley and drain holes.

I shall of course be peering inside the model when I see it face to face!

My version of that kit was built years ago and is as designed, I am afraid. I knew no better then.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

And if you are going to label it "milk and fish" you have to alter the floor so that it can drain. I think some Siphons had floors raised a little in the centre but later ones had a centre gulley and drain holes.

I shall of course be peering inside the model when I see it face to face!

 

Ha! I'm going to fill it with lettuce crates or fish boxes.

  

6 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

My version of that kit was built years ago and is as designed, I am afraid. I knew no better then.

 

I stand on the shoulders of giants.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Compound2632

[drduncan]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

I see that some of these vehicles were designated "milk and fish" - so fish is another possible load for a van heading in the Sheffield direction.

 

 

Stakes are being raised here!

Actually I think some were branded ‘Fish traffic only’ rather than ‘milk and fish’ but I also remember seeing a 6w siphon so branded being loaded with milk churns, but I can’t remember where I saw it! 
D

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, billbedford said:

I'm afraid the sprung buffers are in abeyance at the moment for reasons I'm not going to talk about here but they can be found on the blog page of my website. With luck, I'll be able to start some test prints later this week and then it will be a slog to get everything working again.

 

Using steel buffer heads sounds like a good idea, but I would expect those with a 1mm shaft will have advantages over the ones made for the tiny springs.  

 

Oh dear yes that sounds like a tale of woe inflicted on you by unaccountable software developers. Good luck with the new printer!

 

I don't think I've seen turned metal buffers with long 1 mm diameter shafts, which is what one would want here.

[WFPettigrew]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The third photo is pre-Great War, unless the string of single bolster wagons carrying the large tubes are internal use only - they're all dumb-buffered. They seem all to be of the "long" sort - the wheelbase and length of an ordinary wagon - and one has the scotch brake. Not Midland or LNW, I think - Furness?

 

Stephen 

 

Having had a look on my big computer monitor this morning, I cannot really say whether or not those were FR bolster wagons, as there is no identification and nothing that leaps out as FR.  Yes the FR did have dumb buffered versions built in the 19th century, and as @SteamAle has already pointed out, dumb buffered chauldron wagons survived in West Cumberland up to and beyond the 1914 deadline for their supposed removal from the main line on both the Maryport and Carlisle but also on the Cleator and Workington (more of which in a moment) - so it is possible that any FR dumb buffered wagons still in existence would have migrated up there.  However, there is lots of photographic evidence of FR wagons with self-contained sprung buffers on previously dumb buffered wagons, so my hunch is that generally in the 20th century the FR would have sprung their dumb buffered stock. 

 

I am not sure this would count as an internal user working, as I doubt the wagon works would had the capability to roll those tubes.  However, the line passing the works was the Derwent branch of the Cleator and Workington from High Harrington which led to the Derwent Iron and Steel Works.  It seems to me that it is as likely that these wagons are either from the iron and steel works, just like the WISC labelled wagons in the foreground, or are Cleator and Workington stock.

 

Sorry, this only really confuses things perhaps?!

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

Nobody was around to tell me that 'red' meant 'red oxide' back in the late sixties! Assorted wagons on a variety of chassis. Peco Wonderful Wagons, Kenline, Hornby Dublo etc. The Highbridge-built (prototype & model) Radstock shunter still needs its Salter valves.

 

You've got No. 141 with Williams patent sheet supporter there:

http://www.ipernity.com/doc/philsutters/26349991.

 

Now, not so long ago there was a discussion on the Williams sheet supporter that Nick and Kit were involved in. It appears that the Midland used a latching arrangement which is the same as the drawing in Williams' patent:

 

 

[Crop from MRSC 88-G5/36, D304 wagon for Carr's Biscuit traffic, 1907.]

 

This differs from the type with the semi-circular guide, as first used by the SER and subsequently the LSWR and GWR, though that was also Williams' patent. This latching type was also used on the 100 D299 wagons equipped with Williams patent sheet bars for Six Pit traffic in 1906. So the question is, which type did Highbridge use? The Midland version, like the SER and GWR version, had the trapezoidal plate attached to the bar. This is missing from No. 141, in common with the LSWR implementation, and also the bar changes from round to rectangular section, which is common to all the versions where the bar passes behind the semi-circular guide. So I conclude that your model is right and this is another instance of Highbridge playing Nine Elms-inspired rifs of standard Derby wagons.

[kitpw]

11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Highbridge playing Nine Elms-inspired rifs of standard Derby wagons

I visited Nine Elms when it was still a steam shed, say 1962 or, perhaps, '63.  This was a special day out organised by our slightly eccentric headmaster. I wish I'd taken more interest in the wagon sheet supporters but, sadly, I did not.

 

[Compound2632]

33 minutes ago, kitpw said:

I visited Nine Elms when it was still a steam shed, say 1962 or, perhaps, '63.  This was a special day out organised by our slightly eccentric headmaster. I wish I'd taken more interest in the wagon sheet supporters but, sadly, I did not.

 

On looking it up, I should have said Eastleigh, as the carriage & wagon works moved there from Nine Elms in 1891, though locomotive building did not move there until 1910.  

[phil_sutters]

49 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You've got No. 141 with Williams patent sheet supporter there:

http://www.ipernity.com/doc/philsutters/26349991.

 

Now, not so long ago there was a discussion on the Williams sheet supporter that Nick and Kit were involved in. It appears that the Midland used a latching arrangement which is the same as the drawing in Williams' patent:

 

 

[Crop from MRSC 88-G5/36, D304 wagon for Carr's Biscuit traffic, 1907.]

 

This differs from the type with the semi-circular guide, as first used by the SER and subsequently the LSWR and GWR, though that was also Williams' patent. This latching type was also used on the 100 D299 wagons equipped with Williams patent sheet bars for Six Pit traffic in 1906. So the question is, which type did Highbridge use? The Midland version, like the SER and GWR version, had the trapezoidal plate attached to the bar. This is missing from No. 141, in common with the LSWR implementation, and also the bar changes from round to rectangular section, which is common to all the versions where the bar passes behind the semi-circular guide. So I conclude that your model is right and this is another instance of Highbridge playing Nine Elms-inspired rifs of standard Derby wagons.

Thanks for your information. As you can imagine I was working with very limited information and a fairly tight budget. Atthill and Barrie & Clinker were my only books, to which my Dad added the collection of official Derby rolling stock photos. The under parts were the things most compromised on. I didn't really think about axleboxes and brake gear. But I was fairly young then!

Edited August 28, 2023 by phil_sutters

[billbedford]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I don't think I've seen turned metal buffers with long 1 mm diameter shafts, which is what one would want here.

 

The ones I remember were from PC Models, which had etched phosphor bronze springing units. Maybe there were others. 

[t-b-g]

4 hours ago, MarcD said:

Last night while looking for info in Great Yarmouth's quayside tramways I came across these little beauties.

The photo is dated 1908 which makes it one year before it was bought out by the GCR Photos of LD&ECR stock are very rare. I was under the impression that the LD&ECR’s rolling stock was fairly modern. 3, 5 and 6 plank opens on steel underframes, as well as RCH 7plk on hire. The LD&ECR did have two different wagon liveries one for owned stock where all the letters were straight and parallel. The second for hired stock where the letters sloped. Both being show in LNER wagons Vol.1.

What I think I have identified is:-

1)      4plk dead buffers (on Hire) might have an end door looking at where the lettering starts and stops

2)      4/5plk with a raised end at the closest end and a door on the other (owned?)

3)      Open (possibly owned by CWS (coop wholesale) but it could be GNS (Great North of Scotland) and in that case it opens more questions.

4)      Some sort of Lime wagon.

 

What do people think?

 

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's quite a find! Wave it under @t-b-g's nose. Coal for the local fishing fleet, or even for export? I wonder what the route to Great Yarmouth from an LDEC-served colliery would have been - GE rather than M&GN, perhaps?

 

The two LDEC wagons I would think must be hired - the railway taking whatever it could afford from the wagon companies' hire fleets. The well-known photo of an LDEC hired wagon has all the lettering sloping leftwards; on the nearer wagon at least, I think the letters L and D slope in opposite directions - less convinced about the E and C. I think the position of what ironwork one can see on the inside of the far end matches the spacing of the end pillars - which is rather wide, I think, suggesting a fixed end. It has narrow-ish corner plates but long corner straps at the top. The angle or otherwise of the lettering on the wagon behind is less clear but given, as you say, the modernity of the LDEC's own wagons, I think it must be hired. But on this one it's clear that there is a number on the end and it's only three digits - unless it's the owner's initials?

 

The CWS / GNS wagon I think must be CWS on grounds of probability if nothing else! it's in coal traffic. One can make out where the number is on the bottom plank at the LH end while on the next plank up at the RH there's a longer inscription, probably a place-name - that all looks to me to be the layout of lettering of a PO wagon. 

 

The lime wagon shows some evidence of its load in discolouration of sides and running gear. Looks like a canvass cover for the middle part of the roof? Number 1144 (?) on the gable end.

 

Cracking find that one!

 

Just to correct a minor point, the LD&ECR was taken over by the GCR in 1907, so by the date of the photo, these wagons are under GCR ownership or hire.

 

The GER did have very close financial and political connections with the LD&ECR including running powers (which were exercised) along the line to the collieries. I think the furthest extent was to Clowne, which is not somewhere you would expect to see GER locos on coal trains but there they were. The GER bailed out the LD&ECR financially when things got tough, (in return for access to the collieries via running powers) and a number of LD&ECR wagons were built to GER designs.

 

As my modelling period is 1907/08, it is good to know that I can justify a dumb buffered LD&ECR wagon still in general use at that date. The lettering on the dumb buffered wagon does look distinctly wonky. It looks for all the world as if the LE and C slope one way and the D slopes the other! I would love to know what the small lettering between the D and the E says but we will probably never know.

 

On the wagon behind, at least the letters all look as if they slope the same way.

[billbedford]

8 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

The lettering on the dumb buffered wagon does look distinctly wonky. It looks for all the world as if the LE and C slope one way and the D slopes the other! I would love to know what the small lettering between the D and the E says but we will probably never know.

 

...but all the verticals are vertical. 

[t-b-g]

14 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 

...but all the verticals are vertical. 

 

Welcome to the mysterious world of LD&ECR wagon lettering!

 

There are well known examples (Tatlow Volume 1 P115) which clearly show that the verticals on at least some wagons are anything but vertical but the the horizontals were straight and level. The dumb buffered wagon illustrated looks as though the whole of the slanted style of lettering has been tilted round by the painter, so the verticals are better but the horizontals slope.

 

The wagon behind looks to have the sloping verticals like the one illustrated in Tatlow.

 

I was careful to say how things looked to me rather than to say "This lettering is xyz" because it isn't the clearest photo in the world and could be open to various interpretations. 

 

I would need a much clearer version of the photo to confirm which bits slope and which bits don't. I did line a rule up on the vertical of the L and the vertical of the D and they do look to me as if they are further apart at the top and therefore not vertical but I don't regard that as conclusive. It is more of a personal interpretation. 

 

 

[MarcD]

It means I can also run a LDECR wagon on my S7 micro which is under construction. 

Marc

 

[phil_sutters]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ha! I'm going to fill it with lettuce crates or fish boxes.

  

 

I stand on the shoulders of giants.

Strawberry punnets are a sweeter option. There are photographs of the baskets being loaded into siphons at Axbridge and Cheddar, for destinations like Sheffield, Bournemouth and the Midlands. Somerset & Avon Railways in Old Photographs and the Middleton Branch Line to Cheddar have an illustration each.

Edited August 28, 2023 by phil_sutters

[Compound2632]

A work of destruction:

 

 

Now you've all got me bothering about what goes on below solebar level too: 

https://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2258.php.

and the backboard to the lower footboard is too deep, too.

 

Taken too far, there will be nothing left of the original kit except the gaps between the slats and some of those I've had to add myself.

[phil_sutters]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

A work of destruction:

 

 

Now you've all got me bothering about what goes on below solebar level too: 

https://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2258.php.

and the backboard to the lower footboard is too deep, too.

 

Taken too far, there will be nothing left of the original kit except the gaps between the slats and some of those I've had to add myself.

If you are fruit carrying, are you putting in the racking that was fitted to carry the baskets and crates?

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

If you are fruit carrying, are you putting in the racking that was fitted to carry the baskets and crates?

 

Perhaps, if you can provide a photo...

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, Mikkel said:

I especially like the D305 Engineer's wagon. I look forward to seeing it in red, including what shade you select! 🙂

 

There can be only one shade of red. A first pass: