More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

Dare I suggest that it could be almost anything that needed to be kept dry?  So yes agricultural produce (not just potatoes but maybe open crates of raspberries or even sacks of oats once their widespread growth diminished across England?) but also any processed food or manufactured goods where a crate wouldn't be enough to ensure they arrived in top condition?  

 

Yes indeed, but in a dirty old coal truck? 

[wagonman]

The crushed lead ore produced at the Van mine in central Wales was transported in sheeted 1 or 2 plank wagons. In this case the sheet was presumably to provide protection from tea leaves rather than rain! AFAIK the ore travelled to south Wales for processing, some (from other mines) even being sent by ship from Aberystwyth. Was there any lead smelting in N Wales?

[WFPettigrew]

20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

dirty old coal truck

 

Sorry, not knowing anything about NB wagons, but was the Dia 1 only a mineral wagon?  D299s were after all used for everything from foodstuffs to the dirtiest coals....? 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

D299s were after all used for everything from foodstuffs to the dirtiest coals....? 

 

Touché!

[MarcD]

22 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Back now!

 

 

[Embedded link.]

What a fantastic photo . Just what the doctor ordered for my my S7 micro th under construction.

[41516]

53 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

but was the Dia 1 only a mineral wagon? 

 

Tatlow (Ibid) says the later 10t Dia 98/LNER dia 14B wagons were only classified as mineral wagons rather than open goods in September 1929.  With the Dia 1s being smaller, but with the same end door and full top planks above the side doors, is it not beyond imagination they were also used for goods as well as mineral traffic?

Edited August 21, 2023 by 41516

[Compound2632]

Looking again at the Garswood wagons, I note that the ones in the Park Colliery photo - with the pit brow lassies - are four-plank, with GARSWOOD on the second plank up, whereas the one in the Hooton photo is five planks with GARSWOOD straddling the second and third planks up - as in the photo in Turton's Eighth.

[Andy Hayter]

4 hours ago, wagonman said:

The crushed lead ore produced at the Van mine in central Wales was transported in sheeted 1 or 2 plank wagons. In this case the sheet was presumably to provide protection from tea leaves rather than rain! AFAIK the ore travelled to south Wales for processing, some (from other mines) even being sent by ship from Aberystwyth. Was there any lead smelting in N Wales?

 

First thoughts:

 

Not sure why it was sheeted, but I don't buy the protection from theft idea.

 

Galena, lead ore, is very heavy - like the lead it produces - and you could hardly get away with a fortune in your pocket.

 

Second thoughts:

The ore was relatively rich in silver - not entirely unexpected* - but this still does not make it worthwhile to finger a few lumps.

* Many lead mines produced silver as a by-product.

 

Third thoughts:

The mine produced 4 parts lead ore to 1 part zinc ore (which I would guess would be zinc blende).  So could the covered wagons be the zinc ores? but I can think of no reason why you would need to protect zinc blende.  

 

https://www.nmrs.org.uk/publication/the-van-mines/

 

https://www.nmrs.org.uk/mines-map/metal/central-wales-mines/van-mines/

 

[wagonbasher]

On 20/08/2023 at 18:13, Compound2632 said:

 

Back now!

 

 

[Embedded link.]

Apologies if the following post make this clear as to where it is but I can’t see it.  Where is this amazing location?

 

Andy

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, wagonbasher said:

Apologies if the following post make this clear as to where it is but I can’t see it.  Where is this amazing location?

 

This is an embedded link to the photo to which @Western Star had provided a url link:

 

On 05/08/2023 at 14:36, Western Star said:

Just when I have something interesting to contribute the man goes on holibobs!

 

This link to the FB page of the Didcot Railway Centre shows wagons on the Weymouth Tramway...  and not a single D299 in sight.  My interest is the wagon to the RH end of the rake... a GWR 3-plk with a possible running number of "7784" (thanks to @magmouse).  The solebar looks to be either wood or wood with a flitch plate and yet Nick has shown (to a group of GW modellers) that some of those wagons had bulb solebars.

 

In the absence of info from the GWR Wagon Stock Books, anyone wish to comment upon either the running number or the solebar material?

 

regards, Graham

 

The bridge is the one that preceded the current bascule Town Bridge.

[billbedford]

6 hours ago, wagonman said:

The crushed lead ore produced at the Van mine in central Wales was transported in sheeted 1 or 2 plank wagons. In this case the sheet was presumably to provide protection from tea leaves rather than rain! AFAIK the ore travelled to south Wales for processing, some (from other mines) even being sent by ship from Aberystwyth. Was there any lead smelting in N Wales?

 

The lead ore from the mine at Risca went to Bristol for smelting. 

[wagonman]

20 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

First thoughts:

 

Not sure why it was sheeted, but I don't buy the protection from theft idea.

 

Galena, lead ore, is very heavy - like the lead it produces - and you could hardly get away with a fortune in your pocket.

 

Second thoughts:

The ore was relatively rich in silver - not entirely unexpected* - but this still does not make it worthwhile to finger a few lumps.

* Many lead mines produced silver as a by-product.

 

Third thoughts:

The mine produced 4 parts lead ore to 1 part zinc ore (which I would guess would be zinc blende).  So could the covered wagons be the zinc ores? but I can think of no reason why you would need to protect zinc blende.  

 

https://www.nmrs.org.uk/publication/the-van-mines/

 

https://www.nmrs.org.uk/mines-map/metal/central-wales-mines/van-mines/

 

 

This is slightly undermined by the roofed lead ore wagons built by the Gloucester Wagon Co for J B Balcombe which came fitted with a chunky padlock. There were also secure lead ore stores at Llandovery station and Aberystwyth harbour – there may have others but these two I know about – presumably for the accumulation of enough ores for a cargo. I won't argue that it was probably the silver content that made the stuff nickable – except there was no silver in the Blaencaelan ore!

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by wagonman
caveat

[wagonman]

Another point: there exists correspondence between the Van mines and the Cambrian Railways Goods Agent specifically requesting 1 and 2 plank wagons with sheets for their ore traffic.

[wagonman]

On 21/08/2023 at 16:39, wagonman said:

The crushed lead ore produced at the Van mine in central Wales was transported in sheeted 1 or 2 plank wagons. In this case the sheet was presumably to provide protection from tea leaves rather than rain! AFAIK the ore travelled to south Wales for processing, some (from other mines) even being sent by ship from Aberystwyth. Was there any lead smelting in N Wales?

 

I've not had access to the Aberystwyth Port Books so I only assumed the ore went by sea as the store shed appeared to be on the quay. But there is a documentary reference to a fixed secure ore store at Aberystwyth station is to a Mr Harvey who was given a site for one in the yard for £5 a year rent. But that was in 1874. And it it was after Balcombe had ceased to have an interest in the Blaencaelan mine.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by wagonman

[drduncan]

14 hours ago, wagonman said:

 

This is slightly undermined by the roofed lead ore wagons built by the Gloucester Wagon Co for J B Balcombe which came fitted with a chunky padlock. There were also secure lead ore stores at Llandovery station and Aberystwyth harbour – there may have others but these two I know about – presumably for the accumulation of enough ores for a cargo. I won't argue that it was probably the silver content that made the stuff nickable – except there was no silver in the Blaencaelan ore!

 

A very interesting wagon. I don’t suppose you have any key dimensions such as length, wheelbase etc?

Duncan

[ian@stenochs]

15 hours ago, wagonman said:

 

This is slightly undermined by the roofed lead ore wagons built by the Gloucester Wagon Co for J B Balcombe which came fitted with a chunky padlock. There were also secure lead ore stores at Llandovery station and Aberystwyth harbour – there may have others but these two I know about – presumably for the accumulation of enough ores for a cargo. I won't argue that it was probably the silver content that made the stuff nickable – except there was no silver in the Blaencaelan ore!

 

I wonder how ore was handled in these wagons.  It must have been difficult shovelling it into and out of the corners under that low roof and through that central door. 
 

Ian.

[corneliuslundie]

Lead ore from Dylife went initially to the port Derwenlas below Machynlleth on the Dyfi, but later to Llanbrynmair once the railway opened.

That from Van went by rail from pretty early on.

Jonathan

I thought I posted this a couple of days ago but my computer thinks not. Sorry if it is repeated

[corneliuslundie]

Re the Aberystwyth lead wagon, I suspect the owner soon discovered about loading it - or his staff - and even more difficult to unload completely.

Jonathan

[billbedford]

30 minutes ago, ian@stenochs said:

I wonder how ore was handled in these wagons.  It must have been difficult shovelling it into and out of the corners under that low roof and through that central door. 

 

Well...

 

Obviously, the miners were dwarves.

 

 

Hey Ho

[wagonman]

13 hours ago, drduncan said:

A very interesting wagon. I don’t suppose you have any key dimensions such as length, wheelbase etc?

Duncan

 

The dimension board is attached to the solebar and not that easy to read: it was 12' 6" long, 6' 9" wide, with 10" high sides rising to 28" under the peak – all dimensions internal of course. With flap open and the front "door" removed it should not have been too difficult to get at the cargo with a long handled shovel.

 

That said, there was some doubt about the actual use of the wagons. They are not to be found in the Gloucester Wagon Co Agendas (summary of orders) and yet they were photographed by the works cameraman. The photo is dated October 1871, and Balcombe's interest in Blaencaelan was over by 1873 at  the latest, so their working lives may have been short – or they may have been sold on for use elsewhere by Balcombe or A N Other. I am assuming that there were at least two of them.

Edited August 23, 2023 by wagonman

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, wagonman said:

The dimension board is attached to the solebar and not that easy to read: it was 12' 6" long, 6' 9" wide, with 10" high sides rising to 28" under the peak – all dimensions internal of course.

 

This wagon has an early form of the firm's plate:

 

Gloster Wagon Co. (curved)

Limited

Builders & Owners

No. 54. 

 

I got the third line by looking at the photo of the Sully, Bridgwater wagon in Montague, photo date June 1881:

 

 

[Embedded link.]

 

That is No. 19032. The history of the company reproduced in Montague states that it was founded in 1860 and by the end of that year had built 313 wagons. However, it seems the leasing side of the business came a bit later - though not clear when, on my reading - so No. 54 would therefore be one of the earliest wagons hired out, the company retaining ownership.

 

Montague has a number of photos of wagons with this type of plate, though at some point the third line became just "Owners". The highest number I've spotted is No. 21430, photographed in June 1887:

 

 

[Embedded link.]

 

Later photos show the familiar elongated G plates - at least as early as 1892. That suggests that there was a change of style coinciding with the introduction of the 1887 RCH specification. A number of these wagons also sport the early GWR registration plate - the Great Western was one of the companies running its own wagon registration scheme prior to the adoption of the RCH scheme with its "London Underground" logo-shaped registration plates. One that particularly caught my eye is this, which being Gloster Builder and Owner No. 700 is presumably early 1870s; it has a GWR Northern Division register plate:

 

 

[Embedded Link.]

 

When did the divisional registers cease in favour of a company-wide one? Was it effectively the standard gauge register, with another for broad gauge wagons? Were these registration plates taken off and replaced by the RCH design following the adoption of the 1887 scheme? I would have thought that would have been necessary in principle for the wagons to be accepted on other companies' lines?

 

The latest use of the rectangular Builders & Owners plate is in a September 1907 photo of an 8-ton wagon for A.H&S Bird of Trowbridge, which isn't on the HMRS website; No. 16817 (legible in the reproduction in @wagonman's Wiltshire book) - but this also has the diamond-shaped "reconstructed" plate (with the date 1907) - an old wagon, built dumb buffered, reconstructed, and now re-hired. Written on the solebar is 8ft/3½ which I take to be the wheelbase and journal diameter. Also the inscription 34/9/G which is similar to that seen on a lot of wagons on their second or later hire - presumably a reference to some company register? (I think I've asked that question before and apologise if there was an answer, for I have forgotten.)

 

I feel sure both subjects - early Gloucester plates and pre-1887 GWR registration plates - must have been studied and written up for the HMRS Journal or similar.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Compound2632
typo.

[wagonman]

A few points about Gloucester Owners' plates: these were applied to both simple hire wagons and deferred payment wagons – in the latter case they were presumably removed after the payments had been completed. I haven't managed to pin down exactly when the rectangular style gave way to the elongated 'G' but suspect it was about the time of the introduction of the 1887 RCH scheme. I did read an explanation of the painted solebar code many years ago but have alas forgotten it. I think it was, as you suggest, in the HMRS Journal about the time everyone was doing a, well-deserved, hatchet job on Montague's book.

 

There are three pre-1887 GWR Registers extant, one broad gauge and the other two narrow. They contain internal evidence pointing to the existence of further volumes, now lost. The BG volume was interesting as many of the earliest entries were retrospective, there being a column specifically for the age of the wagon at the time of registration. I haven't seen them since I worked on them at Porchester Road in the mid-'80s where they were discovered by David Hyde and set aside for preservation. They may have gone to Chippenham, possibly via Swindon.

 

Without further specific research any more comments by me are superfluous...

[Compound2632]

26 minutes ago, wagonman said:

I think it was, as you suggest, in the HMRS Journal about the time everyone was doing a, well-deserved, hatchet job on Montague's book.

 

In defence of that book, it's a nice compendium of photographs even if the captions lack depth, and is useful for the reproduction of the history of the company written (not by Keith Montague) for its centenary.

 

29 minutes ago, wagonman said:

I worked on them at Porchester Road in the mid-'80s where they were discovered by David Hyde and set aside for preservation. They may have gone to Chippenham, possibly via Swindon.

 

Chippenham - what archive is that? And indeed Porchester Road?

 

I find myself baffled by the confused state and apparent inaccessibility of archives of Great Western material (excepting that in public collections - TNA and NRM). I understand that the Great Western Society has an archive at Didcot (I've seen a door so labelled!) but largely uncurated and uncatalogued. The numerous authors of works on Great Western locomotives, rolling stock, road vehicles, etc. have presumably had access to material held in various articles but do seem to be very poor at referencing their sources.

[Chrisbr]

Chippenham is the "Swindon and Wiltshire" county archive and from a railway perspective is treated as an outpost of TNA, mainly housing PWay and building drawings as far as I have seen.

 

The only stock books I have ever come across are at NRM (or TNA for the >100xxx wagons).

 

STEAM is another archive that holds drawing and photos that are seemingly uncatalogued, One day I hope to visit and explore.....

[wagonman]

30 Dorchester Road, round the back of Paddington station, was the GWR/Western Region's records store (though dump might be a more appropriate word) which they were in the process of closing down. It had shelves full of miscellaneous and totally unsorted correspondence, various documents like Private Siding Agreements and Cartage Agreements, personnel records, plus a few precious books like the Registers. There were also thousands of drawings which Mike Jolly and Colin Waite were cataloguing for the BGS. This little empire was presided over by Robin Lidster and his very able assistant Ian (damn, I've forgotten his surname) and a few superannuated employees who it's assumed were put out to grass there. In addition there were the 'volunteers' led by David Hyde who were ostensibly there to weed the records but mostly took the opportunity to do our own research. The only other person there who I knew personally was Adrian Vaughan. The only perks, apart from access to an A3 photocopier, were the free X passes for train travel to and from one's home – in this case my girlfriend's place in Norfolk rather than my flat in London! Is there a statute of limitations on this?

 

The Chippenham archive is the Wilts County Record Office, now incorporating the Swindon records as well.

 

Montague's book had a good selection of photos, but the captions were uninformative at best, downright wrong at worst. Why were there in effect two versions of the History? Why was the index so wastefully laid out? The main reason for resenting Montague's work – which looked like it had been thrown together over a weekend – is that it killed the market for a proper job.

 

BTW, I have a feeling it might have been Sandy Croall who cracked the enigma of the solebar code.

 

Wagon company records, where they survive at all, are scattered all over the place: Birmingham Wagon Co records are at Stafford, Lincoln Wagon & Engine records are in Edinburgh, for example. Thank goodness Gloucester Wagon Co records are in ... Gloucester!