More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[sharris]

12 hours ago, Adam said:

 

 

Found on Facebook, Sutton Bridge c.1886 some 299s…

the change in brickwork is quite interesting - someone must have had a ‘gonna need a bigger shed’ moment.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Softwood planks were known as Deal, which is what I suspect that timber would be referred to. The LNWR built the D14 24ft long flat wagons with chain hooks along the solebars for carrying the sort of wood shown. They also used open wagons loaded in the same way as shown. There is  a photo in Talbot's LNWR Miscellany Vol. 2 showing overlong timber which had, probably following a rough shunt, come partly out of the wagon and tipped over on the the next wagon.

[Andy Hayter]

If you don't have a Facebook account it won't open but it is just the picture exhibited in the post.

[phil_sutters]

12 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

Since the overhanging timber would have needed a runner, it does seem logical that the three-plank wagon was used. But why has it been uncoupled and the loaded wagons drawn away from it?

Given that Sutton Bridge was a port with a saw-mill alongside the River Nene, it is likely that the timber is starting its journey inland, having been shipped over from Scandinavia. In that case maybe the runner has been parked there, while the wagons are loaded at the sawmill and they will then be backed down to pick up the runner, before having a guard's van added.

[corneliuslundie]

You mean a wagon like this:

 

Not sure it should have both the diamonds and the lettering but I seem to remember that I was copying a photograph, probably in LNWR wagons.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

I'll be able to look at these Facebook photos once home at the weekend.

[Jol Wilkinson]

12 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

You mean a wagon like this:

 

Not sure it should have both the diamonds and the lettering but I seem to remember that I was copying a photograph, probably in LNWR wagons.

Jonathan

 

Yes, that is  LNWR D14, presumably from the LRM kit, for which I designed the etch artwork.

 

It is interesting that there were no retaining stanchions, which were a feature of the D12 and D13 single bolster wagons. On those the stanchion also hade a chain/rope anchor hole. They seem to have been intended for timber in the round. Deal, in plank form,  presumably only needed chaining down.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Jol Wilkinson

[Adam]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I'll be able to look at these Facebook photos once home at the weekend.

 

As you'll hopefully be able to see, I've added the picture to the original post for reference.

Adam

[Grahams]

I have not seen this photograph before, so apologies if it lurks somewhere earlier in the thread. 

It is dated 2 Feb 1922. Am I wrong in expecting that by that date, all Midland wagons would have had their numbers in white underneath the M? 

It is a splendid example of a rough shunt. The wagons don't appear to be beyond repair. Perhaps I should set some of my wagons up for a similar picture. 

[Nick Lawson]

15 minutes ago, Grahams said:

Perhaps I should set some of my wagons up for a similar picture. 

Looks like a poster for "Midland Railway" - the Schwarzenegger remake.

[WFPettigrew]

14 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Not sure it should have both the diamonds and the lettering

 

Hi Jonathan

 

Aside from the evidence of a photo, yes there was a (brief) crossover period where both diamonds and letters appeared.

 

The book "LNWR Liveries" (Atlantic/HMRS) states that the diamonds dated back to a design on the Grand Junction Railway and were used (on their own) by the LNWR into the 20th century.  In March 1908 it was minuted that new wagons and those going through the works would be lettered LNWR seemingly in a move to catch up with the numerous other companies by then putting initials on wagons.  Is unclear when this actually started to be enacted in the paint shops, but I would guess fairly quickly.  The diamonds were initially retained alongside the lettering - but by November 1911 they were no longer being applied, and from then on wagons were lettered only. 

 

So - this is at least three and a half years when both diamonds and letters were applied, and assuming a six or seven year wagon shopping/repainting schedule, you might imagine that (at least?) half of all LNWR wagons had both by November 1911.  I would also guess that most or all of this number retained this livery by the start of the Great War - and given the traffic demands of the conflict, many of this number would have not been repainted until after the war.  So there is going to be a period from 1909 for up to a decade when you'd get even odds on seeing a LNWR wagon with both diamonds and letters.

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Adam said:

 

As you'll hopefully be able to see, I've added the picture to the original post for reference.

Adam

 

Thanks. Certainly not c. 1886! The D305 has Ellis 10A axleboxes etc. Drg. 1143 so after 1897 and the GN wagons have the large initials - 20th century I'd say.

 

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Grahams said:

I have not seen this photograph before, so apologies if it lurks somewhere earlier in the thread. 

It is dated 2 Feb 1922. Am I wrong in expecting that by that date, all Midland wagons would have had their numbers in white underneath the M? 

It is a splendid example of a rough shunt. The wagons don't appear to be beyond repair. Perhaps I should set some of my wagons up for a similar picture. 

 

 

I have seen a similar photo from a slightly different angle but without any date. No doubt the same event. It does seem surprising that after five years none have their number painted on.

 

[corneliuslundie]

Thanks for the information about the dates for diamonds on the Deal Wagon. Actually I scratch built the wagon (for our club 7 mm/ft Bishops Castle Railway layout) as there would have been a good deal of round timber traffic and the BCR has very few suitable wagons.  Yes, interesting that it had no stanchions.

And an obscure question and perhaps not strictly about  wagons but one which came up elsewhere recently.

In the early 20th century the GWR changed its design for its Siphons from open horizontally boarded sides to sides with part louvres. Had other companies (other than the Cambrian which I know about) already built milk vans of this type? I seem to remember seeing Midland ones, probably 4-wheelers, and an even vaguer recollection of LNWR ones. This thread seems likely to be read by those with such knowledge. Can anyone provide firm answers?

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

38 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

 

And an obscure question and perhaps not strictly about  wagons but one which came up elsewhere recently.

In the early 20th century the GWR changed its design for its Siphons from open horizontally boarded sides to sides with part louvres. Had other companies (other than the Cambrian which I know about) already built milk vans of this type? I seem to remember seeing Midland ones, probably 4-wheelers, and an even vaguer recollection of LNWR ones. This thread seems likely to be read by those with such knowledge. Can anyone provide firm answers?

Jonathan

 

The Midland ones you are thinking of were fish trucks though I think (books not to hand) the later 6-wheelers were fish and milk.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Compound2632

[kitpw]

44 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Had other companies (other than the Cambrian which I know about) already built milk vans of this type?

The MET.  No 3, built 1896 is in the LT Museum - very handsome it is too in varnished teak. It's here: https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/vehicles/item/1981-540

[corneliuslundie]

Thanks both. That is enough for me to suggest a change to the wording about the GWR change.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

On 17/08/2023 at 08:59, Grahams said:

I have not seen this photograph before, so apologies if it lurks somewhere earlier in the thread. 

It is dated 2 Feb 1922. Am I wrong in expecting that by that date, all Midland wagons would have had their numbers in white underneath the M? 

It is a splendid example of a rough shunt. The wagons don't appear to be beyond repair. Perhaps I should set some of my wagons up for a similar picture. 

 

On 17/08/2023 at 12:24, Compound2632 said:

I have seen a similar photo from a slightly different angle but without any date. 

 

This is the photo, only a thumbnail:

 

 

It does seem to be the same accident - there's an end-door D351 in the mix in the same position in both photos. I have it tagged as "Seacombe accident" and don't have a record of where I found it; a google images search just turns up its previous appearance in this thread!

 

[Compound2632]

Looking again at @Grahams' photo, the one that is really up in the air is a D351 too; the one I'd first noticed in both photos is underneath it.

[Compound2632]

On 05/08/2023 at 14:36, Western Star said:

Just when I have something interesting to contribute the man goes on holibobs!

 

This link to the FB page of the Didcot Railway Centre shows wagons on the Weymouth Tramway...  and not a single D299 in sight.  My interest is the wagon to the RH end of the rake... a GWR 3-plk with a possible running number of "7784" (thanks to @magmouse).  The solebar looks to be either wood or wood with a flitch plate and yet Nick has shown (to a group of GW modellers) that some of those wagons had bulb solebars.

 

In the absence of info from the GWR Wagon Stock Books, anyone wish to comment upon either the running number or the solebar material?

 

Back now!

 

 

[Embedded link.]

[Compound2632]

More old wagons:

 

 

These are in the background of a photo of an Experiment hauling a train of mixed Great Western non-corridor stock Birkenheadwards at Hooton, posted on the LNWR Society Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=6716873648369922&set=gm.1253893281965257&idorvanity=109619289726001 [LNWRS RSC10093 Roger Carpenter Collection].

 

The leading carriage is a diagram C10 eight-compartment third, so the photo is no earlier than 1893. Most of the rest of the carriages have the deeper eves panels, so are earlier.

 

The low-sided wagon is LNWR, diagram D1, as is the wagon to the left of the loading gauge, diagram D2 - the cut-away ends to the headstocks are a give-away. the wagon to the right of the D1 is a private owner coal wagon - unfortunately the image isn't sharp enough to make out any lettering. But the one that really intrigues me is the one with the sheet. It appears to be short wheelbase - maybe only 7' 6" (the D1 is 9' 0" wheelbase and 15' 6" long over headstocks). That it is sheeted suggests that it is not a wagon in mineral traffic, so probably not a private owner. The sheet itself, in addition to the number 21943, carries a mark that appears to be a diamond with some lettering in the middle. Any ideas?

[WFPettigrew]

22 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

private owner coal wagon - unfortunately the image isn't sharp enough to make out any lettering.

 

Hi Stephen

 

How about Garswood Coal and Iron Company?   It's clearly an 8 letter title and probably a C or a G followed by an A at the start.  This would be the right part of the world for a south Lancs coalfield wagon to be lurking.

 

See https://www.nmrs.org.uk/mines-map/coal-mining-in-the-british-isles/lancashire-coalfield/wigan-coalfield/park-colliery/

 

I don't have the various books but the Lightmoor Index also points to AT2 AW97 KM85 KT8/81..

 

24 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The sheet itself, in addition to the number 21943, carries a mark that appears to be a diamond with some lettering in the middle.

 

I have less certainty about this - but... the end of the sheet is marked "? B C" and that made me wonder about North British - which did have that four leaved clover type illiterate symbol.  Is that what we're seeing here?

 

Hope this helps.

 

Neil  

[41516]

5 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

made me wonder about North British

 

NB Diag 1 (14'6" over headstock, 7'6" wb) - Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol 3 pg19 perhaps if going down the NB path?

[Compound2632]

I need to set harder puzzles!

 

39 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

How about Garswood Coal and Iron Company?   It's clearly an 8 letter title and probably a C or a G followed by an A at the start.  This would be the right part of the world for a south Lancs coalfield wagon to be lurking.

 

See https://www.nmrs.org.uk/mines-map/coal-mining-in-the-british-isles/lancashire-coalfield/wigan-coalfield/park-colliery/

 

I don't have the various books but the Lightmoor Index also points to AT2 AW97 KM85 KT8/81..

 

 

[Embedded from Neil's link above.] I think you have a match there. Park Colliery, 1900, taken for Mines Inspectors' report. Some of these wagons have a series of angle bracket washer plates rather than corner plates. The one in the Hooton photo has corner plates, as does the second from right in this photo.

 

The lettering on the top plank fits with J. & R. STONE as seen in the Park Colliery photo. The entry in Turton's Eighth has one photo of a similar livery, p. 84 - the body colour is "either slate blue or sky blue, depending on the source consulted.

 

The photo in Keith Montague's Gloucester book, also in Turton's Eighth, is a wagon for Garswood Hall, Wigan, built May 1892:

 

 

[Embedded link to HMRS ACG224.]

 

Steel frame, which was in vogue at the time in some quarters - William Dean had been responsible for the RCH specification and drawings.

 

39 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

I have less certainty about this - but... the end of the sheet is marked "? B C" and that made me wonder about North British - which did have that four leaved clover type illiterate symbol.  Is that what we're seeing here?

 

32 minutes ago, 41516 said:

NB Diag 1 (14'6" over headstock, 7'6" wb) - Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol 3 pg19 perhaps if going down the NB path?

 

Yes, I think that's a fit too. Not just the dimensions but the arrangement of the brake lever and the narrowness of the side door - closeness together of the hinges. I've not found a picture of an NBR wagon sheet but the more I look at the photo the more I can see that the diamond-shape is in fact the NB quatrefoil. The sheet number implies a company with over 20,000 wagon sheets and hence around twice that many wagons, which fits the North British.

 

I wonder how it made its way to Hooton? Not coal, presumably, given that it is sheeted. Seed potatoes, as was suggested for my G&SW open? That was presumably a seasonal traffic? What season?

Edited August 21, 2023 by Compound2632

[WFPettigrew]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I wonder how it made its way to Hooton?

 

Dare I suggest that it could be almost anything that needed to be kept dry?  So yes agricultural produce (not just potatoes but maybe open crates of raspberries or even sacks of oats once their widespread growth diminished across England?) but also any processed food or manufactured goods where a crate wouldn't be enough to ensure they arrived in top condition?