More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[corneliuslundie]

The same problem with GREAT WESTERN on the tank of 1196, a rather small ex-Cambrian loco. In that case I cut up the transfer and added the letters one at a time. No worse than adding five-digit numbers to wagons.

I mentioned the text by John Harvey above. I should have said that that was about the Southern not too long before nationalisation. 

But might "templates" in fact have been sheets with holes for use with a pounce? I don't know.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, richbrummitt said:

Does it depend which side one is viewing though? 

 

Doh. He's right of course!

 

The trick is, only model the side of the wagon you're looking at.

[Schooner]

It's a waste of transfers else!

[magmouse]

45 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The trick is, only model the side of the wagon you're looking at.

 

Sounds like trying to see if the fridge light goes off when the door closes. Has he modelled the side I can't see? Let me take a look... Oh.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

Off to Kew again today; more Traffic Committee minutes - forwards from 1913 and backwards from 1869.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Compound2632

[Jol Wilkinson]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Doh. He's right of course!

 

The trick is, only model the side of the wagon you're looking at.

Something the late Ray Earle did with his models and layouts. Alternatively  have different numbering on opposite sides, or even, with carriages different liveries, e.g. LMS fully lined or simplified./

Edited March 29, 2023 by Jol Wilkinson
Spelling

[Schooner]

21 hours ago, kitpw said:

Splodge is a slightly corrupted technical term related to "lodge" which is placing an amount of something in a particular place as a starting point (was originally "first lodge" corrupted to "splodge").

Brilliant, thank you. When painting or varnishing (often a group activity to be able to keep working a wet edge until the piece was finished) we'd refer to that first dump from a heavily-loaded brush to get started as the 'splodge'*, which needed a little discussion and communicating for efficient working. Nice to know that was correct :)

 

*If on a large, normally flat, item like a hatchcover or table, this would normally be in the centre and you'd work out in every direction in "fields"; if on a long thin item like a rail or spar starting at one end and working in "fleets" along it.

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Alternatively  have different numbering on opposite sides

 

My suggestion that Rapido could double their sales of their new PO wagons by doing that was rather scoffed at by other commentators! It also fell down once we got into discussion of the livery of one, of which there had been but a solitary prototype. (I'm looking forward to seeing a rake of them on an exhibition layout...)

[Compound2632]

There's not much on wagon sheets that I've come across in the MR Traffic Committee minutes but here are a couple of snippets:

 

Minute 12,729 of 6 September 1864

Sheets

                              The General Manager drew attention to the inconvenience caused by the very limited stock of Midland sheets, the number being now only 6,300, and recommended that the stock be greatly increased.

                              Resolved, that the number be gradually increased until it reaches 12,000.

 

At the end of 1864, the total wagon stock was 11,119, of which around 500 were cattle wagons, 400 covered goods wagons, and 700 timber trucks - leaving a ratio of about two sheets to every three open wagons, with a target of four sheets to every three open wagons.

 

Minute 36,893 of 25 June 1914

Sheet Repairers Goods Department.

                              Submitted an application from the Sheet Repairers at Bristol, Manningham, Birmingham and London for improved conditions of service.

                              Agreed to recommend to the Board that an increase of 1/- be given to the petitioners; and, also, to other wages staff in the Sheet Department at an estimated cost of £350 a year.

                              The men concerned are not included in the Conciliation Board scheme.

 

An increase of 1/- per week, say 50/- a year, costing £350 a year, implies that there were about 140 wages staff in the sheet department, which doesn't seem that many, given that they were spread around these other locations as well as Trent.

[Compound2632]

On 24/03/2023 at 00:33, Schooner said:

 

I had scarcely got going on the St Pancras gallery Louis posted last week. This has to be one of the most informative photos of Kirtley-era carriages; reading the relevant chapter of Lacy & Dow, Midland Railway Carriages, I was left in no doubt that this was a photo Ralph Lacy had studied closely; I'm sure the carriage in the foreground was his reference for his drawing of a 24 ft first/second composite built by the Metropolitan Railway Carriage & Wagon Co. I've taken the liberty of making a crop for research purposes:

 

 

Unfotunately the carriage number can't be read. Metropolitan built large batches of these carriages in 1860 and in 1867/8; I think this is from the later batch. Note the brackets above the nearer two doors for the "Smoking" compartment labels (I read the instruction to fit these in the Traffic Committee minutes yesterday) and the shiny upholstery in the second class compartment - presumably leather. The second carriage might be from the 1860 batch; it's been given an additional pair of wheels which Lacy says was done in 1865. Note the slight difference in panelling - all square-cornered on the further carriage but round-cornered at the tops of the windows on the nearer carriage. 

 

These carriages would have formed the bulk of the vehicles in the principal expresses at the time St Pancras opened. The last Kirtley carriages were withdrawn from service around 1886, when some were sold to the Eastern & Midlands Railway - and rapidly withdrawn when that line was taken over by the Midland and the Great Northern in 1893.

[Mikkel]

23 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Alternatively  have different numbering on opposite sides, or even, with carriages different liveries, e.g. LMS fully lined or simplified./

 

14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

My suggestion that Rapido could double their sales of their new PO wagons by doing that was rather scoffed at by other commentators! It also fell down once we got into discussion of the livery of one, of which there had been but a solitary prototype. (I'm looking forward to seeing a rake of them on an exhibition layout...)

 

No scoffing here but personally I would not be comfortable with that. One has to respect the integrity of a wagon, model or not.  The wagon and its livery are one 🙂

 

[Dave John]

Agreed Mikkel. Additionally some companies repeated the number on the end of the wagon. Defeats the double sided idea for a lot of wagons. 

[corneliuslundie]

On the Cambrian the numbers were just on the ends for a long time, so no problem about different numbers. Not that I see much point as it is very hard to read the number on the end of a wagon anyway, in photos or on models.

Didn't Peter Denny do the same as suggested, or was it just empty/loaded bodies on the same chassis?

Jonathan

[jwealleans]

22 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

empty/loaded bodies on the same chassis?

 

Certainly this.    I'm not sure about different numbering.

[Dave Hunt]

The wagons on a friend's layout that I helped to exhibit only had the proper livery on the viewing side of those that ran in fixed rakes, the other side having simply labels with identifying numbers on. All was well until at one exhibition a newby to the team when setting up goods trains in the fiddle yard misunderstood "put the wagons with the labels at the back" and the mistake wasn't spotted until the first train appeared showing different coloured labels with marker pen scribbles on them. There was then a period of lots of passenger trains while all the wagons were turned round.

 

Dave

Edited March 30, 2023 by Dave Hunt

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

The wagon and its livery are one 🙂

 

This:

 

 

[Embedded link to Wikipedia; Photo by Gaius Cornelius.]

 

is a petard (British Army, 19th century - not very specific, that) mounted, we're told, on a madrier with braces; "a rather primitive and exceedingly dangerous explosive device, comprised a brass or iron bell-shaped device filled with gunpowder". It is a device known in Shakespeare's time, indeed was then new technology, so the reference to it in Hamlet, Act 3 Scene 4, should probably be considered an anachronism, though perhaps not as bad as the clock in Julius Ceasar.

 

The etymology is entertaining: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petard#Etymology

[WFPettigrew]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm sure the carriage in the foreground was his reference for his drawing of a 24 ft first/second composite built by the Metropolitan Railway Carriage & Wagon Co

 

Cannot be sure but many of the Metro drawings did survive, in the library at Birmingham. so Lacy may have also been using one of those, as well as good photographic reference like this.

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

Cannot be sure but many of the Metro drawings did survive, in the library at Birmingham. so Lacy may have also been using one of those, as well as good photographic reference like this.

 

Yes, of course. Birmingham Public Libraries do not feature in the acknowledgments in Lacy & Dow, but those were written by George Dow who notes that they may not be complete.

 

However, the HMRS has copies of quite a few - rather poor microfiche copies in origin, I think:

 

 

[Embedded link to HMRS 18119.]

 

Lacy's drawing follows this very closely.

[Dave Hunt]

7 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

Cannot be sure but many of the Metro drawings did survive, in the library at Birmingham. so Lacy may have also been using one of those, as well as good photographic reference like this.

 

Ralph Lacey once told me in some correspondence that we had in the 70s that he was certain that a number of Kirtley era carriage drawings had survived and were at the NRM. "But," he wrote, "Where exactly they are is another matter and I've hit a brick wall trying to get at them."   

 

Dave

Edited March 30, 2023 by Dave Hunt

[Schooner]

Thinking about how to model canvas lifeboat covers, as you do, my mind turned to tissue and dope, a technique I've not used for a long time!

 

The reasons why would also apply for wagon sheets. The issue paper is available in many sizes and grades (and shades), and I wondered 

A) if it could be attached to a supporting bit of A4 and run through a printer 

B) If tissue and shrinking dope might not be a good way of getting that 'taught but sagging under its own weight' look of wagon tarpaulins.

 

Anyone ever tried?

[41516]

I can only think back to days with balsa aircraft and a tin of Humbrol dope.  I seem to remember the dope was cellulose based, so a bit risky around plastics and paint finishes perhaps, unless made separately on a jig to be dropped on a wagon once dry?

Edited March 31, 2023 by 41516

[stevel]

8 hours ago, Schooner said:

Thinking about how to model canvas lifeboat covers, as you do, my mind turned to tissue and dope, a technique I've not used for a long time!

 

The reasons why would also apply for wagon sheets. The issue paper is available in many sizes and grades (and shades), and I wondered 

A) if it could be attached to a supporting bit of A4 and run through a printer 

B) If tissue and shrinking dope might not be a good way of getting that 'taught but sagging under its own weight' look of wagon tarpaulins.

 

Anyone ever tried?

Rather than using dope, you could try artists matte medium, it sets clear but stays somewhat flexible. Also great for doing static grass clumps, because of the flexibilty.

[Compound2632]

I've been sent a link:

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/coal-train-moving-on-tracks-scotland-united-stock-video-footage/mr_00102844

to a short clip of film of hump shunting at March (so my informant identifies the location) which includes footage of a D299 in motion. Here's a screen grab:

 

 

Oil axleboxes - so it's either one of the last built (but not the Great War lot) or they've been fitted in place of the original grease boxes. I don't know whether, when, or to what extent that may have happened.

 

It's not the same film as this one:

 

 

Though I presume of similar date.

[WFPettigrew]

39 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

similar date

Hmm wouldn't want to be the guard in the final shot of that second film...!!! Ouch!

[Krusty]

Quite gentle compared to operation on yer average exhibition layout....

Edited April 2, 2023 by Krusty