More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[kitpw]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I understand it, the serifs provide a more clear termination to the vertical or horizontal line than would a plain end - easier, possibly, for the mason to do neatly

...exactly so:  I still have my letter cutting chisels to prove it.  (The word serif is possibly derived from a proto Indo European word meaning "cut" or "scratch")  When the chisel exits the stone, it naturally tends to leave a tag which is formalised into a serif: it's extremely difficult to hand cut a "stopped" end to a narrow cut - I found it impossible!

[richbrummitt]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I don't think in general templates were used for wagon lettering

Somewhere on here there is/was a good picture showing lettering of wagons including company initials being added to wagons where guide markings had been pounced. You have probably seen it already and I, unfortunately, cannot find it right now. I believe smaller/script lettering, such as tare and permitted loading weights,  would have been completely freehand. So templates for company initials (and other large forms e.g. some numerals)?

[corneliuslundie]

Although the Plantin face now available is only a century old, it was based on much earlier faces.

From Wikipedia: "It was created in 1913 by the British Monotype Corporation for their hot metal typesetting system and is named after the sixteenth-century printer Christophe Plantin. It is loosely based on a Gros Cicero roman type cut in the 16th century by Robert Granjon held in the collection of the Plantin-Moretus Museum, Antwerp."

But since there weren't many railways in the 16th century that need not worry us.

Being more serious, adding lettering to such a large sheet would have been a challenge whether done with stencils or by hand. But they might well have used the method (I forget the name) whereby a stencil had small holes marking the outline of the letter and a "pounce" was used to transfer this outline to the item being lettered as an outline of dots in chalk to guide the painter/letterer  This is described by John Harvey in one of his "Southern Style" volumes.

Jonathan

Beaten to it by Rich

Edited March 28, 2023 by corneliuslundie

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

So templates for company initials (and other large forms e.g. some numerals)?

 

I agree there is some evidence - i have in my mind a photo of wagon paintshop employees with large metal G N templates - but i'm far from convinced it was very widespread - there's another photo of, I think again, Doncaster in LNER days with the letters NE evidently being painted freehand - possibly some marking up in chalk to get the positioning right. If you spent all day painting Ns or Es on a wagon side, you would become proficient.

 

My theory is that in Midland wagon paintshops, there would be a man and his apprentice; the boy would do the left-hand initial and the man, the right-hand. (Neither of them went on to work for Fox transfers).

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, corneliuslundie said:

Being more serious, adding lettering to such a large sheet would have been a challenge whether done with stencils or by hand.

 

I don't see that particularly. Sheets were laid flat for waterproofing (with broom-like brushes); the lettering was also applied in the flat - from my reading of the descriptions in the Essery article. Not good for the back, though.

[Penlan]

I was under the impression that the painting of letters was two stage, there was a person who did/marked the outline (accurately) and then a lesser grade filled in the rest of the letter.
Templates seem to be a sensible suggestion too.

[magmouse]

The following appears in Slinn's Great Western Way:

 

In conjunction with the change in lettering the ME's Office issued Circular 3627 on 17th August, 1921. This said:

 

"Lettering on Great Western Wagons

I shall be glad if you will arrange as wagons pass through your hands for repainting to paint G W in 1'4" letters.

The lettering should be executed as per accompanying print No. 61468, and I will also ask you to kindly note that, in order to facilitate the work, a set of zinc templates has been forwarded to ....

In the interests of economy, however, your people should be firmly instructed that the new letters are only to be painted on the vehicles when it is necessary to renew the existing lettering owing to the whole or part of the vehicle requiring repainting.

Please acknowledge receipt."

 

This indicates that at least the GWR at this time was using templates. Or, more accurately - it was providing templates. Or more accurately still, it was providing a set of templates. Whether they were used, and used consistently, is another matter. And no painting things that don't absolutely need painting! That's a firm instruction.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, Penlan said:

Templates seem to be a sensible suggestion too.

 

I have become very wary of presuming something was done a certain way on the grounds that it seems sensible to us, now. 

 

11 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Or more accurately still, it was providing a set of templates.

 

A set of zinc templates, as an educational aid: this is the form of the new lettering, copy it.

 

I wonder if that explains the photo I was thinking of with the GN templates - the GN introduced its style of wagon lettering with 4-plank-high GN in 1898, I believe. The paintshop staff had to learn the new style.

[magmouse]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

A set of zinc templates, as an educational aid: this is the form of the new lettering, copy it.

Possibly. Or perhaps each location where wagons were lettered only needed one set of templates? The circular probably only went to the wagon repair shops - Swindon C&W probably made the templates, and so had as many as they needed. If the task is to draw round the template with chalk, one person can do a lot of wagons in a day.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Possibly. Or perhaps each location where wagons were lettered only needed one set of templates? The circular probably only went to the wagon repair shops - Swindon C&W probably made the templates, and so had as many as they needed. If the task is to draw round the template with chalk, one person can do a lot of wagons in a day.

 

In the 1890s, the Midland was building wagons at the rate of 6,000 a year as renewals, plus up to 1,000 a year as additions to stock. Of these, about 1,000 a year were built at Bromsgrove. That leaves 6,000 a year for Derby, say 20 per day. Add to that repaints of repaired wagons. (I have a good idea of numbers of repairs per year but not proportion of these would result in a full repaint, or what proportion would be carried out at Derby.) So that's at least 40 Ms and Rs a day; 10 hour day, 4 an hour. Is that the work of one man and his boy or two?

 

Incidentally, looking through the Carriage & Wagon and Traffic Committee minutes, I've found no mention of the decision to start painting the company's initials on wagons. It might, perhaps, have been recorded in the minutes of the Private Wagon Purchase Committee, which have not survived.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Compound2632

[Asterix2012]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

In the 1890s, the Midland was building wagons at the rate of 6,000 a year as renewals, plus up to 1,000 a year as additions to stock. Of these, about 1,000 a year were built at Bromsgrove. That leaves 6,000 a year for Derby, say 20 per day. Add to that repaints of repaired wagons. (I have a good idea of numbers of repairs per year but not proportion of these would result in a full repaint, or what proportion would be carried out at Derby.) So that's at least 40 Ms and Rs a day; 10 hour day, 4 an hour. Is that the work of one man and his boy or two?

Would the numbers and other items such as tare etc be done at the same time?

 

Doing M and R’s all day sounds like a punishment 

[kitpw]

Tells us something about how it's done even if not a 1910 film, or an MR (or even a GWR) wagon. The film doesn't explain how the curved letters were drawn out: not that that matters for the Midland but perhaps there was a template for the G in GWR?

[Western Star]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

My theory is....

For academician I suggest that what you ought to write is "My hypothesis is", of course you can change the text later when you have found the proof of templates/stencils being used at Derby.

 

regards, Graham

[Schooner]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

If you spent all day painting [Ns or Es on a wagon side], you would become proficient.

 

 

Any excuse :) Will catch up with the rest of the thread after watching this...again...

[magmouse]

12 minutes ago, kitpw said:

Tells us something about how it's done even if not a 1910 film, or an MR (or even a GWR) wagon. The film doesn't explain how the curved letters were drawn out: not that that matters for the Midland but perhaps there was a template for the G in GWR?

Well, that was a mesmerising few minutes - thanks, Kit. Having advocated for the ‘stencil hypothesis’, I have noticed that there is quite a lot of variations in how the G and W are drawn on GWR wagons, at least in the 25” lettering livery I have looked at. Possibly the 1921 stencils were an effort to get staff used to free handing the lettering (“I’ve done it like this since 1904!”) to standardise on the new size. “Use the b——dy stencil!” yells the foreman, “we’ve had a memo from the boss.”

[kitpw]

16 minutes ago, magmouse said:

I have noticed that there is quite a lot of variations in how the G and W are drawn on GWR wagons

Yes, I've noticed that too.  If you look closely at the last few frames of the film, you can see some rather scruffy curved chalk lines under the curved letters so maybe they "winged it" against a roughly drawn freehand shape.  The small numbers clearly didn't give the painter any pause, he dives in and turns out some nicley consistent letter forms. The Michelangelo of the petrol tank posted just now by @Schooneris telling - I love the expression on the faces of the two men watching, I probably looked like that too.

 

PS: when in India a few years ago, we were directed to look at a shrine to the Hindu god (one of hundreds if not thousands in the Hindu pantheon) "Royal Enfield".

Edited March 28, 2023 by kitpw

[Schooner]

28 minutes ago, kitpw said:

Tells us something about how it's done even if not a 1910 film

That was brilliant, thanks for that Kit. Some largely non-railway thoughts and some railway questions:

 

I get a little kick from watching the marking out and knowing that technique has been in continuous use for at least three millennia, when apprentices used it to mark grids - for the journeymen to outline their designs on, filled in by the novices and finished and detailed by the masters IIRC - to decorate Egyptian status tombs. Pleasing.

 

How important language is! I would never have been able to articulate that process as

• Stringing Out
• Outlining
• Catching the Edge
• Laying On
• Crossing
• Laying Off

although I'm sure we're all familiar with them as required processes.  It is so much better than relying on a single verb to cover all those separate actions. See Robert Macfarlane's Landmarks for a lovely argument on why it matters to keep hold of precise and specific terminology. As an aside, when work made up the overwhelming majority of someone's life and conversation would have been dominated by it, it allows us to imagine what was being joked about over the pipes and jars during the midday break or in the pub of an evening with a little more accuracy, which is nice.

 

Chalk line - these would've been left for the rain to take care of? So a freshly-painted wagon might still be showing these for a few days of service during a dry spell...? All the images I can think of show wagons being lettered outside - was this for the benefit of the photographer, or were paint shops reserved for the larger - longer - job of painting wagon bodies?

 

 

 

 

[Schooner]

25 minutes ago, kitpw said:

rather scruffy curved chalk lines

Yes, I liked how "them's more guidelines than actual rules" - used to inform the paintline, not dictate it. Also interesting to note which strokes started with a vertical 'splodge' (go on, someone give me the correct term) and some with a stroke, where the lateral movement had started before the brush touches the timber.

 

All in all that was well worth the watch (and re-watches), thanks again :)

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, kitpw said:

Tells us something about how it's done even if not a 1910 film, or an MR (or even a GWR) wagon. The film doesn't explain how the curved letters were drawn out: not that that matters for the Midland but perhaps there was a template for the G in GWR?

 

Superb. The large lettering marked out with a chalk line - no measurement. I agree with @magmouse that there's signs of a chalk outline for at least one of the Ss.

 

I went on to watch the video on signwriting and lining out an NCC carriage - "no pounce patterns" "no masking tape". Though I think in this case transfers would have been used.

 

All of which reminds me that Carter's Steam Fair, a regular visitor to Reading, has now closed with the rides being put up for sale.

 

 

[Embedded link to Carter's Steam Fair website.]

 

The older generation are retiring and the rides are being sold off but I understand the firm has not been wound up, rather, the younger generation are keeping it on as a signwriting business. They offer 5-day courses:

https://www.carterssteamfair.co.uk/learning/intensive-signwriting-courses/

Edited March 28, 2023 by Compound2632

[kitpw]

15 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Robert Macfarlane's Landmarks

I will look for it on Abe's. 

 

Splodge is a slightly corrupted technical term related to "lodge" which is placing an amount of something in a particular place as a starting point (was originally "first lodge" corrupted to "splodge"). [which suggests not believing everything you read in books]. 

[Compound2632]

Speaking of Ms and Rs:

 

 

These are waterslide, from the current Slater's sheet.

 

I've hit a snag: the word MEDIUM is on the HMRS sheet, but it's much too long to fit in the space available!

[magmouse]

22 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

but it's much too long to fit in the space available!

 

You are saying the Medium is too Large? On a larger wagon, Medium would fit, but only Large fits on a Medium. Small goes anywhere.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, magmouse said:

You are saying the Medium is too Large? On a larger wagon, Medium would fit, but only Large fits on a Medium. Small goes anywhere.

 

If you look at an LMS cattle wagon, you'll see it has the right lettering in the right order - but only initials.

[richbrummitt]

19 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

If you look at an LMS cattle wagon, you'll see it has the right lettering in the right order - but only initials.

Does it depend which side one is viewing though? 

[richbrummitt]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Speaking of Ms and Rs:

 

 

These are waterslide, from the current Slater's sheet.

 

I've hit a snag: the word MEDIUM is on the HMRS sheet, but it's much too long to fit in the space available!

I found the same problem with various lettering for ventilated and ventilated van. I intend to make a fair number so had some made custom from Fox that did fit, including squashed numbers to go on the ends of wagons where the sheet supporter forces them to one side. Not worth it for the odd one or two. I go freehand for that using a brush with at least 4 zeros on it.