More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

This attempt at a furled sheet, inspired by the LNW D103 in the Bishopsgate photo, hasn't been such a success:

 

 

The starting point was a very old attempt at creating a D1 from the D48 rail wagon in the Ratio permanent way kit; the latter being a modification from the original D1 tooling anyway, as I understand it:

 

 

At that time I was ignorant of the finer points of LNWR wagon developments, so it has eitherside brakes and oil axleboxes. Those were removed, the axleboxes re-shaped with round bottoms and new fronts from 2.5 mm x 0.5 mm Evergreen strip, and a wooden brake block made from 0.060" black Plasikard:

 

 

The top half of the brake block hanger isn't properly shaped as it is hidden from view.

 

A brake lever was fabricated from Evergreen strip, cunningly tapered and bent at the end using the softening-with-limonene technique. A sliver of microstrip was stuck on to suggest the kink where the lever is bent outwards to clear the axlebox. The brake lever guide is a spare from the medium cattle wagon kit.

 

 

The LNWR sheets I had from Thomas Petith are of the design with a saltire cross extending to the corners. Evidence for this design seems to be a bit mixed; at any rate at my c. 1902 period the design with a right cross extending only about three-fifths of the length and width of the sheet seems to have been usual. I had some sheets of this design from an internet supplier recommended to me by a LNWR modeller but I'm afraid they went straight in the bin: the material they were printed on was thick and glossy, the printing was very low resolution, and the sheets were oversize by a good margin from the standard 21' x 14' 4". So I made my own. largely using the one on the GS&W wagon in the 1912 Curzon Street photo we looked at recently:

 

 

[Crop from Warwickshire Railways lnwrcs1503.]

 

The lettering is simply Times New Roman bold, though for the numbers I stretched it by 20%. The sheet was inkjet printed on 80 gsm recycled printer paper, the same as I used for the folded sheets a couple of weeks ago, but that is, I think, the downfall of this project. 

 

The printed sheet was given a quick spray with some evil fixative recommended by a fellow club member who does a lot of Scalescenes etc. print-at-home buildings. I prefer to use this outdoors but it was raining hard so it was a quick blast at the far end of the garage and a hasty retreat.

 

I loaded up the wagon with a lead weight and a piece of Daler board and set about pre-furling the sheet:

 

 

A trial fitting revealed a problem - the sheet overhangs the ends by so much that it would be draped over the buffers:

 

 

The wagon in the Bishopsgate photo is an 18 ft-long D103. so there would only be 18" overhang at each end; a D1 is 15' 6" long.

 

There's this wagon, at Birmingham Central Good in the 1890s:

 

 

[Crop from Warwickshire Railways mrcgy924b.]

 

Previously I had thought this was a LNWR wagon, with the saltire cross on its sheet, but on looking again I think it's actually Great Northern. Anyway, it looks to me as if the sheet is tucked under at the end, so that's what I tried to replicate, cutting off the end tie-ropes I'd painstakingly glued on! Unsatisfactory result as above.

 

The basic problem is that the 80 gsm paper, even the cheapo recycled sort, is much stiffer than the almost-tissue paper of the Thomas Petith sheets like the Great Western one on No. 41516. Look at, as an example, the Ryman website, the lightest printer paper advertised is 70 gsm, but there is a 45 gsm paper designed for use with carbon paper for typewriters. (I'm amazed such antique technology is catered for!) A question is whether it would work with my inkjet printer, or whether the paper feed would just chew it up. It may be that even lighter paper can be got from art suppliers. I'm wondering whether the Petith technique could be copied, with a really lightweight paper glued at the edges to standard 80 gsm paper.

 

There should be no problem cleaning the wagon up for a second attempt.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Compound2632
typo.

[Chas Levin]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

This attempt at a furled sheet, inspired by the LNW D103 in the Bishopsgate photo, hasn't been such a success...

Are you not perhaps being a little harsh there Stephen: it looks pretty good from here...

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Chas Levin said:

Are you not perhaps being a little harsh there Stephen: it looks pretty good from here...

 

"Could do better / try harder."

 

It doesn't meet the standard set by GW No. 41516. 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Compound2632

[richbrummitt]

I printed my tarpaulins sheets on cigarette paper using an inkjet printer.  Technique involved understanding the orientation of the paper in the drawer/tray compared with the output. After printing onto A4 paper cover over the printed area with the cigarette paper using just the gummed strip at the leading edge of the print then put it back through and it should print over the top where the cigarette paper is.  Cigarette papers are available in various sizes. What I’m not sure of is whether the largest (extra large?) would be wide enough for 4mm dimensions.

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Are you not perhaps being a little harsh there Stephen: it looks pretty good from here...

 

Another point is that I think the signwriting could do with a bit of tweaking. I suppose the number should also appear on the short sides of the sheet, though with those tucked under that's moot.

 

I am also unhappy with the flat top surface - there needs to be some relief. Looking again at the LNWR D103 in the Bishopsgate photo, of which Louis gave us a crop:

 

 

we can see that the load is something along the centre-line of the wagon, with the sheet dipping down from the sides all round, ready to hold a nice big puddle when it rains. I said that there ought to be 18 in overhang at each end on this 18 ft wagon; some of that is pulled in by the droop of the sheet but even so with about 9 in at most hanging over at this end there must be more at the other. 

 

It can just be made out that this sheet is lettered LMS; I doubt that by 1925 there would be many sheets still with pre-grouping markings still in circulation.

[Penlan]

14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

.......I'm amazed such antique technology is catered for!

Be careful, you could be accused of Ageism.
Sandy (79+)  

[Chas Levin]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

"Could do better / try harder."

 

Written in red ink, I trust? 😉

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, richbrummitt said:

I printed my tarpaulins sheets on cigarette paper using an inkjet printer. 

 

I'd be looking for something that could be used to print a sheet 84.0 mm x 57.3 mm. I read that king size rolling papers are in the range 100 mm - 105 mm x 55 mm - 60 mm wide, so that's touch and go on width. Being ignorant of such things, which edge is gummed and how wide is the gummed strip?

 

However, with no disrespect intended to you, I'm reluctant to purchase something that directly contributes to the profits of the tobacco industry.

[Dave Hunt]

21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

However, with no disrespect intended to you, I'm reluctant to purchase something that directly contributes to the profits of the tobacco industry.

 

I'm not sure that you buying a packet or two of cigarette papers would make much difference to the profits of the tobacco industry Stephen.

 

Dave

[billbedford]

14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

However, with no disrespect intended to you, I'm reluctant to purchase something that directly contributes to the profits of the tobacco industry.

 

There are a whole range of tracing papers used by artists which could be substituted. Maybe you would end up with the same grade as fag paper ut with a different label. 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, billbedford said:

There are a whole range of tracing papers used by artists which could be substituted. Maybe you would end up with the same grade as fag paper ut with a different label. 

 

Indeed. I think my first port of call will be Hobbycraft, not that they're at all what one could call a specialist retailer. There used to be a couple of good artists' materials shops in Reading until Hobbycraft came along but if that hadn't happened no doubt the internet would have done for them. 

[Citadel]

I’ve been consuming Tunnock’s Caramel Wafers in the interest of equipping a fleet of tarpaulin covered D299’s.  Read elsewhere on RMWeb that the paper backing could be printed/painted and that the foil helped them to be moulded to shape quite convincingly

 

 

OK, haven’t actually tried it yet but think I need to up the weekly miles on the bike as a consequence.  
 

On reflection maybe a bit thick for convincing edges

Edited March 27, 2023 by Citadel

[kitpw]

Rizla is (said to be) 20gsm.  The lowest gsm tissue paper I can find is 22gsm at Jacksons - https://www.jacksonsart.com/search/?fq[paper_surfacegsm]=22+gsm&q=paper.  I think "India paper" would be a better paper - defined as being less than 30gsm.  I haven't done a search for it but it is the traditional paper for bibles for export (ie lightweight editions, if that isn't a contradiction in terms). It's a hard smooth paper like Rizla paper but, perhaps, with a nobler intent.

[kitpw]

...also 'onion skin' and 'air mail' paper might be worth following up. Onion skin is a textured surface which might be appropriate for worn sheets.

[richbrummitt]

19 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'd be looking for something that could be used to print a sheet 84.0 mm x 57.3 mm. I read that king size rolling papers are in the range 100 mm - 105 mm x 55 mm - 60 mm wide, so that's touch and go on width. Being ignorant of such things, which edge is gummed and how wide is the gummed strip?

 

However, with no disrespect intended to you, I'm reluctant to purchase something that directly contributes to the profits of the tobacco industry.

I bought green (medium weight) king size Rizla. They measure 97x55mm. The gummed edge is along one long side, which reduces the area to 97x50mm and you’d have to be super accurate of your placement to use all that so not much use in scales 4mm upwards.
 

My next sheet attempts (and I have the wagons built and painted ready to take them for over a year but no roundtuits) will be water slide transfer paper onto some thin lead foil I was gifted. Don’t hold your breath for the results.

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, Citadel said:

I’ve been consuming Tunnock’s Caramel Wafers in the interest of equipping a fleet of tarpaulin covered D299’s.  Read elsewhere on RMWeb that the paper backing could be printed/painted and that the foil helped them to be moulded to shape quite convincingly

 

This is an idea I will have to chew over.

[Asterix2012]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

This is an idea I will have to chew over.

Caramel logs are also available 

[corneliuslundie]

I think I shall suck it and see.

[Chas Levin]

12 hours ago, Citadel said:

I’ve been consuming Tunnock’s Caramel Wafers in the interest of equipping a fleet of tarpaulin covered D299’s.  Read elsewhere on RMWeb that the paper backing could be printed/painted and that the foil helped them to be moulded to shape quite convincingly...

Mike, that's the best excuse for eating the dangerously delicious Tunnock's wafers I've ever heard! Well done - I'll be lobbying for them to be added to the weekly shop next week, purely for modelling purposesm of course... 😁

[wagonman]

Green Rizla+ is 17.5 gsm, the Orange is 20.

[wagonman]

While I'm being boring, I probably should point out that Times New Roman was designed in 1931. It was however derived from a much older face called Plantin which might be available on your computer too.

 

I have an urge to eat a Tunnock's wafer...

[Dave John]

WARNING  : Tunnocks wafers are highly addictive. Entire housing schemes in the west of Scotland are full of folk who eat vast quantities of them. They used to just enjoy a small rollup but the idiocy and greed of politicians means that obesity and heroin are cheaper than tobacco. ( Political rant, just ignore me ) 

 

I have tried wagon sheets on tunnocks wrappers, far too much ink bleed for my inkjet printer, might be less so for a laser printer. I did try using cigarette papers taped down to ordinary paper as a carrier but it just ended up as mush. 

 

I do think wagon sheets are important for the pre grouping modeller, I continue to experiment. 

[Ian Smith]

Following Richard Brummit’s suggestion, I too have used green Rizla cigarette papers for my 2mm scale wagon sheets. I use exactly the same method as Richard, printing in draft mode as less ink is deposited thereby avoiding the paper turning to mush.

[MR Chuffer]

7 hours ago, wagonman said:

Plantin

An observation, it is downloadable for free but "Plantin is a Transitional serif typeface originally designed by Fritz Stelzer and Frank Hinman Pierpont in 1913..." So what came before that?

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, wagonman said:

While I'm being boring, I probably should point out that Times New Roman was designed in 1931. It was however derived from a much older face called Plantin which might be available on your computer too.

 

2 hours ago, MR Chuffer said:

An observation, it is downloadable for free but "Plantin is a Transitional serif typeface originally designed by Fritz Stelzer and Frank Hinman Pierpont in 1913..." So what came before that?

 

I simply used Times New Roman as the serif font that was closest to the signwritten lettering on the sheet in the Curzon Street photo. What we have to remember is that signwriting and the design of printer's fonts are different arts with different, though related, rules: for example, in the signwriting of block or sans-serif lettering, it is usual for verticals and horizontals to be of equal width, whereas printer's fonts generally have the horizontals thinner than the verticals. This is why some of the cottage industry RTR PO wagon liveries so often look hideously wrong, even once you've made allowances for the 10 ft wheelbase steel underframe... Fortunately Bachmann, Hornby, Oxford, and now Rapido do take the trouble to get this right. Serif lettering on a goods wagon is unusual - a few railway companies did use it for their initials - GC/CL most notably - but its use was a bit more widespread on sheets. These serif styles are derived from the carved lettering used for inscription on Roman monuments, funerary tablets, etc. (hence the Times New Roman name) where, as I understand it, the serifs provide a more clear termination to the vertical or horizontal line than would a plain end - easier, possibly, for the mason to do neatly. So a style that started out being designed for carving was adapted on the one hand for printing and on the other for signwriting. I wonder if the scale of the lettering has any bearing on differences of design? I suppose that in a sheet shop, templates might have been used, but as I don't think in general templates were used for wagon lettering, it may well be that the painters were doing everything freehand.

 

Anyway, I will probably tinker with the letter shapes in Coreldraw to make them more like the forms seen on LNWR sheets, the digits especially. I avoided a sheet number with a 3, since the LNWR sheet style was for a flat-topped 3.