More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, MarcD said:

Also could be an export order as the famous Pegasus Bridge over the Orne Canal, in Normandy, is the same design.

 

Built 1934, so not this one. But the principle stands - we need to be looking for Scherzer rolling bascule bridges built 1908 world-wide...

[jamie92208]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm thinking the size of that turntable giving access to Kitson's works, that Jamie mentioned, might be the reason.

 

 

[https://maps.nls.uk/view/125642461]

Yes that's the famous turntable.  It also gave access to Fowlers steam plough works so trolleys that would fit on it would have made good sense withnall those heavy plough engines for export.  I think that there are photos of it around and 20' or a littlle larger would be about right.  From memory it hzd a complete circular wooden deck.

There might even be one of the Furness Baltics there.

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

58 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Yes that's the famous turntable.  It also gave access to Fowlers steam plough works so trolleys that would fit on it would have made good sense withnall those heavy plough engines for export.  I think that there are photos of it around and 20' or a littlle larger would be about right.  From memory it hzd a complete circular wooden deck.

There might even be one of the Furness Baltics there.

 

Site giving an overview of the various firms in the area: 

http://www.leedsengine.info/leeds/hunslet.asp

Seems to have rivalled Springburn!

[jamie92208]

That area was no 4  beat from Dewsbury Road nick.  No prizes for guessing which was my favourite beat in 1976 to 79. The security office at Hunslet Engine co was a good tea spot.  I even caught a thief round the back of the works at the Pearson Street gates. One sunny afternoon I'd had a row with my Sgt and was put out on no 4 foot beat. Stopped at the newsagents then headed for those back gates with a new railway mag in the poachers pocket of my cape.  Happily reading it in the sun when a bag followed by an arm and the rest of the thief emerged from under the gate right at my feet. He rolled over and said oh merde or something similar. The Sgt even gave me a complement for my good work..  Happy days. There were still some 2' gauge tracks across Leathley Road and of course the connection into the Hunslet Engine Co.

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

While we're on the topic, here's another plan, showing an extra line to be put in for Kitson & Co.:

 

 

[Embedded link to MRSC 12179].

 

Dated 2 September 1889; I think minute No. 10044 of 1 November 1889 must be a Way & Works Committee minute, though this plan has evidently been past the Traffic Committee. Copy to Mr. Payton to carry out 22 January 1890.

 

The scale of 40 ft/in is no help as we're not told the size of the document! If we assume the track gauge is drawn to scale, the turntable diameter is indeed about 20 ft.

 

As for those Kitson goods engines:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 88-C0012].

 

Kitson's also built a 120 of Johnson's goods engines, from 30 of the 1142 class in 1875:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 99-0759]

 

through 40 of Class J in 1890-92 to 50 of Class M in 1899.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Compound2632
typo.

[WFPettigrew]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

But according to that, they were in place in Barrow by 1907, whereas according to the date given in the Derby Registers, they didn't leave Derby until June 1908...

Several sources say the that bridge was open by 1908, so unless the Derby registers are wrong, that's isn't our bridge.  (Cue further circular discussion.."That's not my bridge, it's too curvy... That's not my bridge, it's the wrong date.... etc!!!)

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

the Derby registers are wrong

 

A distinct possibility; I forget with whom I was discussing this but the suggestion is that the dates given are the dates the photos were entered in the register, rather than the date they were taken, though even if that is true six or twelve months seems a bit of a delay. Could equally well be ta transcription error from the register to the website - 07 seems a bit unlikely for a reading error, would 06 be too early?

 

However, 27 June 1908 was a Saturday, which would make some sense if this was a special out-of-gauge working - as we've seen from the armour plate special traffic notices, these workings were done on Sundays. All loaded up the previous day.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Compound2632

[MarcD]

57 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

Several sources say the that bridge was open by 1908, so unless the Derby registers are wrong, that's isn't our bridge.  (Cue further circular discussion.."That's not my bridge, it's too curvy... That's not my bridge, it's the wrong date.... etc!!!)

Are you writing a new childrens book " That's Not My Bridge!" for the "That's not my ....!" range of touchy fealy books?

 

Marc

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, MarcD said:

Are you writing a new childrens book " That's Not My Bridge!" for the "That's not my ....!" range of touchy fealy books?

 

I posted this a couple of weeks ago:

 

[Rowsley17D]

That's not my train, it's a locomotive.

[jamie92208]

Out of interest I've emailed a friend of mine who is a leading light in the traction engine world to ask him if he has any photos of road locomotives such as plough engines leaving John Fowlers, loaded onto wagons.

 

Jamie

[WFPettigrew]

We seem to be able to keep about half a dozen different subject balls up in the air at once on here, so I hope I can be forgiven for throwing in another one!

 

There has been discussion in the past about the way the railway companies slowly moved towards better identification of their wagon stock, such as the MR leading the way with large company letters on the sides of their wagons.  There has also been chat about the addition of painted wagon numbers on the body side over and above a cast wagon plate. 

 

The impression I had got from what I have read previously is that this was an evolving picture driven by both a trend to make their own stock stand out as theirs (good marketing, and also helpful to ensure wagons found their way home in the days before pooling) and the numbers would help both goods agents and also RCH wagon number loggers to keep track of which wagon was in a particular train without having to get up close and peer at the plate on the solebar.  

 

However - regarding the numbers - was there a dictat at some point from the Board of Trade or the RCH or somesuch requiring companies to paint numbers on the side of wagons?

 

From what can be gathered from photos with known dates, the Furness (yes here he goes again) started off with just the wagon plate on the solebar.  Sometime just before the end of the 19th century they started painting the wagon number on the centre of the top end plank of an open (this would mean a number was visble on all four faces).   Sometime and certainly by the middle of the Great War but possibly a bit earlier the FR was painting the number on the lower left of the wagon side, and the lower left of each end.  The MR started putting wagon numbers on the sides about the same time. 

 

Was this a trend or was it by order?

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

Was this a trend or was it by order?

 

I need to spend more time with RAIL 1080/386. I have seen it said that it was a RCH agreement, presumably written into a revision of the PO wagon specification, that the number should be displayed at the LH end. By the turn of the century, that seems to have been pretty common on PO wagons, though not universal - Stephenson Clarke wagons built around then had the number centrally, above the door, though by the grouping period the number was repeated at the LH end. Did any such RCH specification influence the GWR's change from number at the RH end to LH end, from c. 1893?

 

According to Midland Style, p. 139, when the decision was taken to paint the number on Midland goods and mineral wagons in February 1917, the initial instruction was that it should be at the RH end, changed to LH end the following month. (I'm getting deja vu typing that; if we've not discussed the question here before, it has been gone over somewhere nearby!)

 

But there seems to have been little consistence. The LNWR stuck to numbers painted on ends only, which seems to have been quite widespread practice in the 19th century. At grouping, the new groups standardised on number at the LH end, so there must have been some agreement. On the LMS, all wagons excepting those of the Midland were re-numbered, which required new painted numbers anyway. Did they get new LMS solebar plates? The pre-grouping ones were taken off and went for scrap, which is why there are a good number of Midland plates surviving but hardly any LNWR, L&YR, etc. plates.

[magmouse]

Having painted numbers seems to go back a long way with the GWR. They also chiseled "GWR" and the wagon number into the solebar, either side, but this was in addition to the painted numbers - as Stephen says, initially on the right, later on the left of the side, and also on the wagon ends. The chiseled lettering of course stopped with the change to iron and later steel under frames, which was quite early compared to most other railways, and was replaced with cast plates.

 

The LSWR seems to have made extensive use of centred numbers, though not in all cases - it seems to be based on whether the number would be obscured by an open door.

 

Nick.

 

 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, magmouse said:

They also chiseled "GWR" and the wagon number into the solebar, either side

 

This, I believe, was a late survival of a primitive practice from the very earliest days - possibly Grand Junction practice.

[magmouse]

11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

This, I believe, was a late survival of a primitive practice from the very earliest days - possibly Grand Junction practice.

 

Interesting - thanks. I have just started a scratch-built 18' OH 1-plank, with wooden frames, and I am wondering if I can find a way to do the chiseled letters. They need to be about 2mm tall, so fiddly, but maybe not impossible...

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Interesting - thanks. I have just started a scratch-built 18' OH 1-plank, with wooden frames, and I am wondering if I can find a way to do the chiseled letters. They need to be about 2mm tall, so fiddly, but maybe not impossible...

 

I'm puzzling over that, but 1 mm tall...

 

Numbers on the left:

 

 

Also, some actual modelling, with an attempt at coal loads. The wagons are weighted with lead from a roll of 2 mm flashing I invested in, giving a total mass when loaded of 60 g - a nice hefty feel, and free-running too. For these, I've not faffed about with the load-making jig I built a while back but gone for coaling straight in the wagon. There's a former made from 1.5 mm card, with the corners bent down to try to represent the sort of load profile seen in photos of hand-loaded coal wagons - not the very pronounced heap one sees with mechanically-loaded wagons. The former is crudely painted in black acrylic and pushed into the wagon. It's given a layer of PVA, real coal applied and tamped home, then dilute PVA squirted on in the approved ballasting technique. 

 

There is a well-known problem with expansion when lead reacts with PVA; I'm reasoning that since the PVA is not being used to bond the lead (stuck down with cyano) any seepage round the edges of the card former is not something to worry about. 

 

This is the appearance I'm striving for, not there yet:

 

 

Cricklewood, March 1905 [Embedded link to DY2806].

 

I'm using Peco medium and coarse grade real coal. Looking at the variety of sizes in photos, especially anthracite in Turton's Fourth Collection, I felt neither was coarse enough for the chunkiest loads, so I've ordered some Geoscenics "Gauge 0 Coal"...

[kitpw]

2 hours ago, magmouse said:

I am wondering if I can find a way to do the chiseled letters. They need to be about 2mm tall

...I experimented with letter/number punches for incised lettering a while ago...

I don't have letters in 1/32 (1.5mm) and none in 2mm but I dug these photos out of the archiive - the numbers are stamped into plasticard.

 

 

Clarification - the photo shows 1/32 numbers

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by kitpw

[Northroader]

May I suggest a wood block cut to fit inside the body, then wrap a paper strip round the block, overlapping at the top, and paint the lot Matt black. Put some pva glue to seal the join, then put a pile of crushed coal inside. Give it the diluted pva treatment like you would for loose ballast, (The pva seal will stop the diluted glue seeping down inside the paper) When it’s dry, trim the paper strip flush with the coal, and touch up the black. You’ll find this dispenses with the need for a lead weight, is more economical with the coal, and a lot easier to take out of the wagon if you want to.

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Northroader said:

May I suggest a wood block cut to fit inside the body

 

The thing is, that's quite a bit of faff. One would like a lath 28 mm (or a tad under) x 12 mm (for a 6 or 7-plank wagon) - not a size that is readily available from the DIY suppliers. So one's into planing down...

 

Anyway, you know my mantra: the wagon and its load are one.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Compound2632

[magmouse]

On 21/02/2023 at 17:26, kitpw said:

...I experimented with letter/number punches for incised lettering a while ago...

 

That's an interesting idea. I had a test attempt on a bit of spare polystyrene strip, with the point of a set of compasses, and the sharp end of a needle file:

 

 

And painted:

 

 

The strip is about 3mm, so the letters are 2mm or so. Not as neat as your punches, but maybe workable. I need to chose a number that is mostly straight lines - the curves are much harder to keep tidy.

 

Nick.

 

Update - see further consideration of the letter sizes later in this thread:

Edited February 23, 2023 by magmouse
New info

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, magmouse said:

I need to chose a number that is mostly straight lines - the curves are much harder to keep tidy.

 

Hum. My wagons are already numbered: 19258, 20573, 21087, 21635. I've done myself no favours there! (I note I need every digit except 4.) I think what I need is a set of 3 point sanserif type. 

[magmouse]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Hum. My wagons are already numbered: 19258, 20573, 21087, 21635. I've done myself no favours there! (I note I need every digit except 4.) I think what I need is a set of 3 point sanserif type. 

 

A bit of further peering at photos with an overlaid grid has brought me to the conclusion that the letters need to be more like 2.5mm in 7mm scale. I found a set of punches (letters and numbers) cheaply on eBay, so I will see what they are like. Hopefully it will be possible to clamp them together to keep everything straight, though the spacing might be too great. I'm also wondering if heating them will be a possible method, to melt the plastic locally, rather than using brute force to push it out of their way. We will see...

 

Nick.

[kitpw]

8 minutes ago, magmouse said:

I found a set of punches (letters and numbers) cheaply on eBay

I was going to suggest just that! Not least because of the cost of a new letter+number set but also because the older punches will probably be closer in letter style than, for instance, a 4mm set I've got which date from the 1970s.  The ones I illustrated are at least pre-WW2 and probably older than that.  The packaging for the set is marked 1/32nd which translates to about 0.8mm but putting the calipers on the "8" gives 1.5mm (?).  I scribed a centre line on the shank of the square punch to tell me which way up (those numbers are so small it's hard to see except with magnifier) and set the punch along a rule:  with more care than I took, it ought to be possible to work out the spacing against the scale and use the straight edge to get the line. Good luck!

 

[magmouse]

9 minutes ago, kitpw said:

I was going to suggest just that! Not least because of the cost of a new letter+number set but also because the older punches will probably be closer in letter style than, for instance, a 4mm set I've got which date from the 1970s.  The ones I illustrated are at least pre-WW2 and probably older than that.  The packaging for the set is marked 1/32nd which translates to about 0.8mm but putting the calipers on the "8" gives 1.5mm (?).  I scribed a centre line on the shank of the square punch to tell me which way up (those numbers are so small it's hard to see except with magnifier) and set the punch along a rule:  with more care than I took, it ought to be possible to work out the spacing against the scale and use the straight edge to get the line. Good luck!

 

 

Actually, this is a new set - it turns out there are lots of these around. Engineering/tool shops sell sets for £50 and more, which I am sure are excellent quality, but there are cheap (and presumably low quality) sets targeted at the jewellery and craft markets. Since I am working with plastic, not metal, hopefully a cheap set will work ok - and as long as I get the basic letter form, I will have something to work with using the needle file. Your idea to align the punches to a rule is a good one - I'll find some way to clamp the rule and the solebar to the bench, and I should be able to keep everything aligned.

 

Whatever happens, it'll be a fun little experiment!

 

Nick.