RMweb Premium Dave Hunt Posted February 18, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 18, 2023 I think that carriage roofs would darken quite quickly, the rate depending on where they were used and, just as importantly, where they were stored between journeys. Following a locomotive belching out sulphurous smoke, especially in tunnels, then quite possibly being stored in an industrial area wouldn't do a lot for the roofs, even with carriage cleaning plants, hence I think that almost any grey from quite light to almost black would be acceptable. Dave 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted February 18, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 18, 2023 But rarely uniform in colour until the darkest brown/black is achieved. 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 18, 2023 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 18, 2023 (edited) Carriage (and van) roofs in our period were, as I understand it, made of canvas stretched over boards and with lavish application of white lead. The following is from an 1898 specification document for S&DJR Road Vans, built at Derby: ROOF. Side and End Top Rails and Roof Sticks to be of Best White Oak, Roofing Boards to be of Best Swedish Red Deal, 1 in. thick, tongued and grooved and V jointed on one side, joints of boarding to be bedded in thick White lead, Roof Cloth to be in one entire piece and equal to sample. It must be laid on a very thick coat of White Lead Paint and well stretched, and then fastened down under the Eaves and secured by the Filletting. Water Strips to be secured on Roof as shown and bedded down with thick White Lead. [MRSC 88-1974-58/3.] The white lead could be left as the final colour, as on LNWR and GWR carriages, or as on the Midland a top coat of grey paint could be applied - very likely the same formula as wagon grey, i.e. mostly white lead with a dash of lamp black etc. Thus, as for wagons, there would be two aging processes. Chemical change of white lead to black lead sulfide, as a result of reaction with hydrogen sulfide as an atmospheric pollutant from the burning of coal. Would roofs have been more prone to this than the vertical sides of wagons etc.? Accumulation of grime and dirt from general atmospheric pollution. The degree of either of these would depend on location. I can imagine that a set of carriages used on some rural GWR branch line might keep whiter roofs for longer than a set used on the GWR's metropolitan suburban services. My understanding is that the introduction of superheating made the railways dirtier, with more oily particles in the locomotive exhaust. What I think we can be sure of is that what we see around us today, even (or especially) at heritage railways, is no guide since both paint technology and the composition of atmospheric pollution are very different to what they were a century and more ago. Edited February 18, 2023 by Compound2632 4 3 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium magmouse Posted February 18, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 18, 2023 28 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: Chemical change of white lead to black lead sulfide, as a result of reaction with hydrogen sulfide as an atmospheric pollutant from the burning of coal. A bit of searching online turned up a fascinating article on the effects of atmospheric pollution on the paintings in the National Gallery, London, in the 19th century: https://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/upload/rtf/saunders2000.rtf Including this nugget of information: "Metals can also be damaged by sulphur dioxide; by 1912, an iron girder in Charing Cross station (a few hundred metres distant from the National Gallery) was found to contain around 9% iron sulphate when it collapsed after long exposure to smoke from coal-fired railway engines." Nick. 5 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted February 18, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 18, 2023 I notice that the word "deals" crept in to the text there: "best Swedish Red Deals". What is noticeable in that specification is how much direct handling of the white lead would have been necessary as opposed to applying it with a brush. Jonathan 1 3 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 18, 2023 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 18, 2023 3 hours ago, corneliuslundie said: What is noticeable in that specification is how much direct handling of the white lead would have been necessary as opposed to applying it with a brush. Elsewhere in this and similar specifications, a good thick coat of white lead is called for for bedding the timber joints in the underframe and the ironwork onto the woodwork. I infer that this was standard practice in the building of timber-framed wagons, maybe iron/steel framed ones too? A question for the wagon restorers, perhaps. 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted February 18, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 18, 2023 (edited) On 06/02/2023 at 23:45, phil_sutters said: Short horns seem to have been pretty wide spread. When looking for stock for the Highbridge Wharf cattle dock & wagons, I chose Dairy Shorthorns and Devon Reds. The latter could be too west country for you. Have a look at what UK breeds there are and you can probably find details of their history and distribution around the country. I got a couple of packs of 9 unpainted resin cows and a bull from WWScenics. Currently they are £5.99 a pack. Which seems to be the best deal going. There may be one or two that aren't standing, but if you are packing them into wagons you can arrange them so their legs can't be seen. Another similar option at a lower price of £4.99 for 10 cows plus a bull is this one. https://www.scale3d.co.uk/collections/new-figures/products/cows?variant=43517378625756 I haven't seen these myself but have had many other products from this manufacturer and they are excellent. I now have added a herd of Scale 3D cows and their impressive bull to the collection. Highbridge wharf was photographed a number of times with a good few cattle wagons and its cattle dock was a decent size too - with four access gates on each of two rail faces. The cattle market was a couple of hundred yards away on the other side of the harbour. The cattle are beautifully modelled. A few delicate features had broken before arrival and I snapped a couple while snipping off the printing supports. I have learnt that clipping the base end of a delicate part's support, then the nearer end usually preserves the ear or hoof. One ear is missing (now found and reattached) but the rest have been reattached with super glue. A bit tricky as they are so small but just about doable - with my ageing fingers and eyes and fine pair of tweezers. In the batch I got there are four cows standing looking forward, two standing grazing and four sitting or lying on the ground. I am going to suggest that they market them with standing cows in an 'in transit' set for cattle wagons and docks and one with sitting and grazing in a field set. They are so cheap that it may not matter if they don't. You could probably get away with putting supports under the sitting ones and mixing them with standing ones in your cattle wagons. I will report again when I have painted them. P.s. Looking at the paint on the samples above, on my biggish screen, does make the ones on the right look a bit rough. They look to have much nicer appropriately random patches in real 1/76th life! Edited February 19, 2023 by phil_sutters 6 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted February 19, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 19, 2023 On 18/02/2023 at 14:53, Compound2632 said: Carriage (and van) roofs in our period were, as I understand it, made of canvas stretched over boards and with lavish application of white lead. The following is from an 1898 specification document for S&DJR Road Vans, built at Derby: ROOF. Side and End Top Rails and Roof Sticks to be of Best White Oak, Roofing Boards to be of Best Swedish Red Deal, 1 in. thick, tongued and grooved and V jointed on one side, joints of boarding to be bedded in thick White lead, Roof Cloth to be in one entire piece and equal to sample. It must be laid on a very thick coat of White Lead Paint and well stretched, and then fastened down under the Eaves and secured by the Filletting. Water Strips to be secured on Roof as shown and bedded down with thick White Lead. [MRSC 88-1974-58/3.] The white lead could be left as the final colour, as on LNWR and GWR carriages, or as on the Midland a top coat of grey paint could be applied - very likely the same formula as wagon grey, i.e. mostly white lead with a dash of lamp black etc. Thus, as for wagons, there would be two aging processes. Chemical change of white lead to black lead sulfide, as a result of reaction with hydrogen sulfide as an atmospheric pollutant from the burning of coal. Would roofs have been more prone to this than the vertical sides of wagons etc.? Accumulation of grime and dirt from general atmospheric pollution. The degree of either of these would depend on location. I can imagine that a set of carriages used on some rural GWR branch line might keep whiter roofs for longer than a set used on the GWR's metropolitan suburban services. My understanding is that the introduction of superheating made the railways dirtier, with more oily particles in the locomotive exhaust. What I think we can be sure of is that what we see around us today, even (or especially) at heritage railways, is no guide since both paint technology and the composition of atmospheric pollution are very different to what they were a century and more ago. Funnily enough that specification is exactly how the roof of the 1896 tramcar thzt I helped restore was built. Only in 2010 we used a mixture of light grey mastic and white spirit, stirred till it was the consistency if thick paint. At @corneliuslundiehas commented this is done as mu h with the hands as with a brush. The boards were liberally coated first, then the canvas was applied, liberally coated again the stret hed and held down with beading which was also bedded om much mastic. Actually quite an enjoyable 'messy' task. With modern mastics it took a week to fi ally remove all traces from my hands, despite wearing disposable gloves. Just in time for the next weeks application. Jamie 5 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 20, 2023 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 20, 2023 (edited) Although I've enthused about the sinuous curves of No. 10018, the one-off 40 ton trolley, my favourite Midland special wagons have to be the pair of 15-ton trucks for tram car engines, Nos. 18230 and 19890, built to Drg. 627 [MRSC 88-D0047] as lot 122 of 10 November 1884. They have a certain dinky charm: [Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64615.] These were built as renewals and hence are not mentioned in the Traffic or Carriage & Wagon Committee minutes. They feature in all the editions of Diagrams of various Trucks of special construction: [Crop from scan of Diagrams of various Trucks of special construction, 1889, MRSC 28524-009.] In 1889, restriction F was "These Wagons are refused by L. C. & D. Ry. Co. unless Three clear Days' notice has been given." In the c. 1902 and c. 1906 editions, this had become "Before sending to L. C. & D. or S. E. Co.'s consult Chief Goods Manager" and the wagons were described simply as "15 ton short trolley". In the diagram book they are D312 and both appear in the December 1913 list of special wagon numbers, with code TEM. In Midland Wagons, they are stated to be on page 88 of the LMS special wagon diagram book, demonstrating that they lasted beyond 1922 [TNA RAIL 422/12 - this is a document I have yet to examine]. These two trucks are a shortened version of the four 15-ton trucks of lot 114 of 10 March 1884, built to Drg. 607 [MRSC 88-D0200]: [Crop from scan of Diagrams of various Trucks of special construction, 1889, MRSC 28524-009.] Restriction G was the same as restriction F. These wagons are in the diagram book as D311, code TYM, and on p. 89 of the LMS book, so some survived beyond 1922. There is some confusion over their numbering. On D311, the numbers given are: 10311, 10589, 26939, and 26941. The special wagon list gives, for code TYM: 10311, 10589, 69530, and 104476. The latter pair of numbers are most improbable for special wagons built in 1884 but would almost certainly have originally been assigned to bought-up private owner wagons. Nos. 26939 and 26941 appear under code UTN, 18 ton trolleys (unrestricted) on the special wagon list and in the entry in Midland Wagons for the five wagons of lot 816 of 19 December 1912 (though I think the numbers listed must be from the LMS book as they don't appear on diagram D653). Three of these wagons were built as additions to stock, presumably Nos. 4, 75, and 91, and two as renewals. So there's some mystery or, at least, clerical error. (Recalling that the special wagon list is dated December 1913 and the five copies of the wagon diagram book I have seen are all, on internal evidence, a version prepared c. 1914.) Back to the tram car engine trucks. The length of the well was 12' 2", which is, as far as I can gather, just enough to fit one of Kitson's standard tram car engines, built from 1880 onwards. According to some sources, these were designed by Charles Parsons, later of Turbina fame, whose brother Richard was a partner in Kitson & Co. Here's an 1885 example, Birmingham & Aston Tramways No. 13, no doubt delivered from Leeds aboard No. 18230 or 19890: [Tramway Badges & Buttons website.] Through its purchase of the Belfast & Northern Counties Railway, the Midland became the proud owner of engines of this type, two of which survive in museums, one at Cultra and one in Hull: [Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 62463.] I imagine these were maintained at York Road, so I'm afraid couldn't be modelled loaded en route between Leeds and Heysham. By the later 1880s, Kitson's were building larger tram car engines. These must have called for larger wagons. Nothing specific appears to have been built, so perhaps the two 30-ton bogie trolleys of 1875, Nos. 29570 and 29571 were used. (We've seen one close to retirement in 1897, delivering a Manning Wardle & Co. locomotive at Barnstaple.) As an example of the larger engines, some of which were built as two-cylinder compounds, here's Birmingham & Aston Tramways' No. 27 of 1888, photographed between 1889 and 1902: [Tramway Badges & Buttons website.] The caption to a photo of similar engine No. 23 on that website mentions reboilering in 1901 - I suppose it would have gone back to Kitson's for that, so there's licence for tram engines of the 1880s travelling Midland between Birmingham and Leeds around my 1902 period! Much of what I know about the Kitson engines comes from D. Harvey, Birmingham before the Electric Tram (Amberley, 2013). I'm wondering if there is anythin published, either book or article, on the Kitson engines specifically? I did make enquiries elsewhere on the forum a bit over a year ago, which turned up some useful information: Edited February 20, 2023 by Compound2632 7 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted February 20, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 20, 2023 Kitsons works connected directly into the throat of Crown Point Goods Yard in Leeds with access via a relatively small turntable. I can't remember the diameter but when Kitsons built some Balltic tanks for the Furness Railway those had to be run right onto the turntable then had yhe front and rear bogies tJacked up so that they could be turned to access a running line. As to their production, andrew Johnson at Leeds E gine I fo might be able to help. If not I'll see if I can find any details of Volume 1 of Leeds Transport by J Soper, when I get home. I presume that the trolleys would have fitted on the turntable. Jamie 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted February 20, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 20, 2023 (edited) On 18/02/2023 at 21:03, phil_sutters said: I now have added a herd of Scale 3D cows and their impressive bull to the collection. Highbridge wharf was photographed a number of times with a good few cattle wagons and its cattle dock was a decent size too - with four access gates on each of two rail faces. The cattle market was a couple of hundred yards away on the other side of the harbour. The cattle are beautifully modelled. A few delicate features had broken before arrival and I snapped a couple while snipping off the printing supports. I have learnt that clipping the base end of a delicate part's support, then the nearer end usually preserves the ear or hoof. One ear is missing (now found and reattached) but the rest have been reattached with super glue. A bit tricky as they are so small but just about doable - with my ageing fingers and eyes and fine pair of tweezers. In the batch I got there are four cows standing looking forward, two standing grazing and four sitting or lying on the ground. I am going to suggest that they market them with standing cows in an 'in transit' set for cattle wagons and docks and one with sitting and grazing in a field set. They are so cheap that it may not matter if they don't. You could probably get away with putting supports under the sitting ones and mixing them with standing ones in your cattle wagons. I will report again when I have painted them. P.s. Looking at the paint on the samples above, on my biggish screen, does make the ones on the right look a bit rough. They look to have much nicer appropriately random patches in real 1/76th life! I have now given the cattle and a handful of other figures a couple of coats of white rattle can primer. I notice that I have missed a few support 'pips'. The photos were taken with my compact camera so probably don't truly reflect the high quality of these Scale 3D products. I haven't yet decided on the breed of cattle yet so it will be a few days before they reappear fully painted. I am only putting these photos in this thread as there has been some interest here already. In addition to suggesting that they are marketed in 'in-transit' and 'in the field' groups, I have also suggested there might be a market for cattle wagon loads done as a 'bas-relief' of cattle backs & heads. The majority of cattle bodies and legs in cattle trucks cannot be seen distinctly through most slatted sides.. A standard block suitable for the more common sized wagons could be cut down by one or more beast(s) to fit smaller wagons. General practice seems to be to load cattle across the wagons. P.S. There are further variations of cattle on their way, I have been told. Edited February 20, 2023 by phil_sutters 12 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium magmouse Posted February 20, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 20, 2023 Regarding the tram car trolleys, it's curious that the shorter trucks were built immediately after the longer ones, when there seems little to gain in a shorter design, and a loss in flexibility of use. The shorter ones will have been marginally cheaper, and offered 3 1/4 inches more headroom, but I would have thought adding to the pool of 24" OH trucks would have been more useful? Possibly I am inappropriately applying a 21st century view of efficiency, flexibility and return-on-investment to a 19th century decision... Nick. 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted February 20, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 20, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, magmouse said: Regarding the tram car trolleys, it's curious that the shorter trucks were built immediately after the longer ones, when there seems little to gain in a shorter design, and a loss in flexibility of use. The shorter ones will have been marginally cheaper, and offered 3 1/4 inches more headroom, but I would have thought adding to the pool of 24" OH trucks would have been more useful? Possibly I am inappropriately applying a 21st century view of efficiency, flexibility and return-on-investment to a 19th century decision... Nick. Without having access to my tramway reference books I can't be sure but I suspect that tram engines were a sort of standard length to fit the trackwork at the termini. Which would have been constructed as economically as possible in the sense of length of headshunts for running round. However there may well have been a trend towards higher power ratings so the only way was to make them higher to accommodate a larger boiler and or more fuel and water. Jamie Edited February 20, 2023 by jamie92208 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium magmouse Posted February 20, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 20, 2023 15 minutes ago, jamie92208 said: Without having access to my tramway reference books I can't be sure but I suspect that tram engines wereca sort ofvstandard length to fit the trackwork at the termini. Which would have been constructed as economically as possible in the sense of length of headshunts for running round. However there may well have been a trend towards higher power ratings so the only way was to make them higher to accommodate a larger boiler and or more fuel and water. Jamie Thanks Jamie - that all makes sense, in terms of building the trucks for the specific loads, to meet the immediate requirement. What I found curious is that they didn't take what we might think was the easiest route - to build some more of the trucks they just built a few months ago. Especially when those trucks would have more flexibility for other traffic - but perhaps 'future-proofing' is a more recent management concept. Nick. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 20, 2023 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 20, 2023 1 hour ago, phil_sutters said: We've had this not so long ago. Red setter: Devynock, Neath & Brecon Railway, No. 1106A on a goods train [Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 61763]. 8 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted February 20, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 20, 2023 (edited) There is a chapter 'Kitson Conundrum', with three pages of tables of their list, which is in 'A History of the British Steam Tram - Volume 3' by David Gladwin. The table is reproduced courtesy of the Stephenson Locomotive Society's Library, where a full photocopy version is archived with the reference WL 13540. The dimensions that seem not to be included are the o/a length and width. The wheelbase, gauge and all the boiler details are listed and the models are listed by their customers. Edited February 20, 2023 by phil_sutters 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted February 20, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 20, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Compound2632 said: We've had this not so long ago. Red setter: Devynock, Neath & Brecon Railway, No. 1106A on a goods train [Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 61763]. The figures look more Andrew Stadden Edwardian Workers or Victorian Enginemen than Scale 3D! Edited February 20, 2023 by phil_sutters 7 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitpw Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 3 hours ago, Compound2632 said: We've had this not so long ago. Red setter Are you sure it's red, might it not be grey? 1 1 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dave Hunt Posted February 20, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 20, 2023 One of my favourite little Midland engines, an eminently model-able short mixed goods train, an attractive setting, interesting group of men and a splendid looking dog. What's not to like? Dave 4 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 20, 2023 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 20, 2023 (edited) 13 minutes ago, kitpw said: Are you sure it's red, might it not be grey? Ho-ho. Look, you can see it's the same colour as the engine. Note the interlaced timbering of the point. Edited February 20, 2023 by Compound2632 3 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dave Hunt Posted February 20, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 20, 2023 13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: Note the interlaced timbering of the point. Classic Midland. Dave 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium magmouse Posted February 20, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 20, 2023 13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: Ho-ho. Look, you can see it's the same colour as the engine. Note the interlaced timbering of the point. More to the point - it’s the same colour as the GWR wagon immediately behind the engine. So if we can work out what colour that is, we will know the colour of the dog. Nick. 1 1 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 20, 2023 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 20, 2023 22 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said: Classic Midland. Dave To the Hon. Chairman of the Midland Railway Society, Dear Sir, The photo was taken at Devynock, Neath & Brecon Railway. Your most obedient servant, A. Pedant Esq. M.Inst.R.C. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitpw Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: Note the interlaced timbering of the point. Are you hinting that it's actually a pointer, not a setter... in which case it's light grey. Talking of rabbit holes, your enthusiasm for the 40 ton trolley wagon (again in a post earlier today) which you contrasted with the more common angular shapes of that era took me down one the other day... into the world of fracture mechanics. It's particularly noticeable that the box beams on the sides of the 40 ton trolley are a pretty good demonstration of how to avoid stress concentrations or "stress raising" and to that extent, seemed to me to be ahead of its time. Following that up, I came across this from Britannica... "... in 1914 the British engineer Charles Edward Inglis derived the analogous solution for stresses around an elliptical hole. Their solution showed that the concentration of stress could become far greater, as the radius of curvature at an end of the hole becomes small compared with the overall length of the hole. These results provided the insight to sensitize engineers to the possibility of dangerous stress concentrations at sharp reentrant corners, notches, cutouts, keyways, screw threads, and similar openings in structures for which the nominal stresses were at otherwise safe levels. Such stress concentration sites are places from which a crack can nucleate. (my italics). 5 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schooner Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 Oops 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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