More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Penlan]

11 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

 

Another similar option at a lower price of £4.99 for 10 cows plus a bull is this one. https://www.scale3d.co.uk/collections/new-figures/products/cows?variant=43517378625756 

At least there's one grazing.
When I've been searching for suitable live stock for my fields, I've found it difficult to get a range of live stock grazing, there was a vendor some years ago who sold w/m sheep loosely, so I was able to buy a couple of dozen grazing sheep (and cleared his stock at that exhibition).  I've fortunately been able to pass on livestock that's seemingly in a hurry to go somewhere, and just retain the static, gazing and grazing stock.
Some of the Bovines available seem more suitable for a lively wild west show, than a placid UK landscape.

[corneliuslundie]

I have had the same problem with sheep. The sets always seem to have two lambs and eight adults. You either want no lambs or more lambs than adults. Like you I was able to top up the supply of lambs at a show where they were being sold individually. 

Back more on track, I would be interested to know just what types of traffic the prize cattle wagons were used for. The Cambrian was certainly not using one in 1907 when bringing award winning horses back from the Royal Welsh Show in Aberystwyth. The vehicle which was destroyed in an accident at Abermule (not the famous one) was recorded by the inspecting officer as a cattle wagon which did not even have any brakes. Mind you, as far as I can tell the Cambrian didn't have any prize cattle wagons.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Back more on track, I would be interested to know just what types of traffic the prize cattle wagons were used for. The Cambrian was certainly not using one in 1907 when bringing award winning horses back from the Royal Welsh Show in Aberystwyth.

 

That is at least in part down to customer choice, since different rates applied for horses by cattle truck, prize cattle van, or horse box.

[Aire Head]

16 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Back more on track, I would be interested to know just what types of traffic the prize cattle wagons were used for

 

Thats simply down to what the customer is willing to pay. Examples in a prize cattle/horsebox might be a race horse, a valuable riding horse or officers horse from an Army Regiment.

 

Work/Draft horses/cavalry horses for other ranks would travel in cattle van which were often sheeted to provide additional protection and reduce the distress of the horses.

[41516]

26 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

Work/Draft horses/cavalry horses for other ranks would travel in cattle van which were often sheeted to provide additional protection and reduce the distress of the horses.

 

From the 'Useful Screencaps from Youtube' folder.  One solution for anyone who can't face up to making all of the bars needed on a cattle van.... (LMS D1944 front and D1661 rear by the looks)

 

[Compound2632]

Mustn't forget the sheep...

 

 

[Oxenhope (!), 1935, Telegraph and Argus, embedded link.]

Edited February 7, 2023 by Compound2632

[Aire Head]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Mustn't forget the sheep...

 

 

[Oxenhope (!), 1935, Telegraph and Argus, embedded link.]

I can see the fair residents of Keighley haven't changed much in the last century.

[Aire Head]

45 minutes ago, 41516 said:

(LMS D1944 front and D1661 rear by the looks)

 

Closest to the Camera is a D1661 whereas a D1840 behind it I believe 

 

[41516]

Front...of train in this case (travelling from Right of frame to left) - appears to have the door pillars down to solebar level which would make it D1944.  Angle and position of the diagonal framing is also different to D1661 and appear to be angle rather than flat, ends looks flush....

 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by 41516

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Aire Head said:

Closest to the Camera is a D1661 whereas a D1840 behind it I believe 

 

56 minutes ago, 41516 said:

Front...of train in this case (travelling from Right of frame to left) - appears to have the door pillars down to solebar level which would make it D1944.  Angle and position of the diagonal framing is also different to D1661 and appear to be angle rather than flat, ends looks flush....

 

Oh dear; I suppose that having posted a photo of post-grouping sheep I'm in no position to complain about discussion of post-grouping cattle trucks!

[corneliuslundie]

What's wrong with post grouping sheep?

 

Actually not at all appropriate for a British layout as being a Dutch sheep (but photographed near Newtown).

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

What's wrong with post grouping sheep?

Actually not at all appropriate for a British layout as being a Dutch sheep 

 

Aha! I'd wondered what these modern image types meant by "Dutch livery". Now I know!

[corneliuslundie]

Animal breeds have changed a lot over the years, with selective interbreeding between types. For my 1930 mid Wales layout the obvious choices for sheep were Kerry Hill and Improved Welsh Mountain, but today there are entirely different breeds which dominate. The same for cattle. There are some books on the subject, but I admit that I only researched as far as I needed to. 

Earlier than 1930 it would have been different again, with more local breeds. I don't know, for example, when Herefords started to roam around the country. Friesians of course are immigrants, but I am not surer when.

But this is a long way from the title of the thread, though we have been exploring most aspects of goods wagons over the past few months (does this thread get the award for the most active on RMWeb?) and I have found it both interesting and useful.

Which brings me to a question about cattle wagons. I want to build a couple of examples of the early cattle wagons owned by the Bishops Castle Railway. Unfortunately, all I have as source material is a couple of photos one of which does not show anything below about 6 ft from the ground.

 

 

Can anyone suggest their provenance and a possible source of a drawing?

Jonathan

 

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, corneliuslundie said:

Which brings me to a question about cattle wagons. I want to build a couple of examples of the early cattle wagons owned by the Bishops Castle Railway. Unfortunately, all I have as source material is a couple of photos one of which does not show anything below about 6 ft from the ground.

 

Is it known who the builders was?

 

Mention of the BCR prompts the observation that nothing's been heard from Simon @Regularity since the summer... 

[Annie]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

Which brings me to a question about cattle wagons. I want to build a couple of examples of the early cattle wagons owned by the Bishops Castle Railway. Unfortunately, all I have as source material is a couple of photos one of which does not show anything below about 6 ft from the ground.

Photos courtesy of the Bishops Castle Society website.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Annie
added a picture

[MarcD]

They are similar to the early Cally cattle wagons which has open ends. I did one in 7mm a few  years ago.

Marc

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Annie said:

Photos courtesy of the Bishops Castle Society website.

 

That is different to the ones in @corneliuslundie's photos. It has design features in common with midland cattle wagons but is something of a hybrid between the standard design with \I/ framing and the last design - that became LMS D1661 - with only two gaps in the side planking. 

[Dave John]

Perhaps ot , but with reference to Annies second photo. Why the signal next to the shed ? 

 

A couple of nice Scotch Derricks in there too. 

[phil_sutters]

10 hours ago, 41516 said:

Front...of train in this case (travelling from Right of frame to left) -

 

 

A bit late to the game, but the train is travelling from the left to the right. I have just replayed it. The commentary is a hoot, especially when the commentator tries to inject conversational bits and to imitate regional or working class accents.

[corneliuslundie]

The builder of the early BCR cattle wagons doesn't seem to be known, though as later all ther goods stock was sold to the Midland Wagon Co and then hired back, that may be a clue - or a distraction.

Thanks Marc for the pointer.

Re Regularity, he has sold the Lydham Heath layout on.

Jonathan

[wagonman]

On 07/02/2023 at 09:34, Compound2632 said:

 

I think the lady nearest the camera is a Freisian. They're very familiar, as our wake-up call when at our usual holiday spot is the sound of the cows going to milking. It's a hill farm in the Western Dales, with a herd of 22 milking cows when we arrived last summer, up to 23 at the end of our fortnight. An addition to stock had been made at Hawes market, taking advantage of high demand and prices owing to the drought in the south. It was at one time the practice to have a Jersey or two in the herd, upping the cream content and hence price of the daily milking.

 

It helps to know the usual timing of the milk tanker lorry, as the roads are very narrow!

 

 

As a kid c1960 I lived for a while in darkest Wiltshire and would 'help out' at the local farm in the holidays. It was a mixed farm with a smallish dairy herd of about 12 head, mostly Guernseys but with at least one Jersey – for the cream content. The old Jersey was the matriarch of the herd and thus at the head of the queue come milking time.

 

[Annie]

7 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Re Regularity, he has sold the Lydham Heath layout on.

Jonathan

I wonder who he sold it to.  But I'm sure Regularity didn't sell himself on as well, - we haven't seen him here for a good while now.

[Compound2632]

I was at The National Archives again today. Among other things, I had a look at their two copies of the Midland's Wagon Diagram Book; on a recent visit to the Midland Railway Study Centre I had had a look at the three copies there. These are all the same edition, with the same index, but with varying degrees of annotation, insertion of additional diagrams, etc. The two TNA copies are stamped "London Midland and Scottish Railway Company" with a typed sticker "General Manager." One has more annotations than the other, though both have pages struck through where all the wagons of that diagram had been withdrawn. Two of the Study Centre copies are pristine, apart from additional pages, but one is heavily annotated. It had been in private hands before being acquired by Roy Burrows, so there has to be some uncertainty over the origin of some of the annotations. I think it should be possible to date the book by the newest diagram included in the original printing but I haven't yet worked that out. The question is, was this the only edition?

 

There is also a single printed sheet of "Diagrams of various Trucks of special construction" that went through several editions. TNA has a September 1898 version, beautifully printed by the Midland's printers, Bembrose & Sons; the Study Centre has an 1889 version, along with some undated but later versions, one of these was also included folded up inside the more heavily annotated TNA diagram book.

 

Here's an embedded link to a scan of MRSC 28314, which must be at least one edition on from the TNA September 1898 version, since it includes 60-ton gun truck No. 117106 in its original configuration, as ordered in May 1899:

 

[Compound2632]

Now I've banged on often enough about how the ordinary, everyday, and mundane should predominate in our modelling, if we wish to present a realistic portrait of the past. So I've argued that one should eschew special wagons - they were rarities. The Midland had fewer than 500 such things at any one time (though it does depend how you count) - about 0.4% of its total wagon stock by the 20th century. But I've been distracted by these "Diagrams of various Trucks of special construction" so I hope I will be forgiven a series of short essays...

 

I'm going to start with the 40-ton trolley No. 10018, top right on the diagram reproduced in the previous post [MRSC 28314]:

 

 

This one-off wagon appears as diagram D308 on p. 96 of the wagon diagram book. It was built to Drg. 611 to lot 120 of 23 June 1884. There is no mention of it in either the Carriage & Wagon or Traffic Committee minutes, so it was built as a renewal, as its number would suggest. Looking at the half-yearly returns of working stock, the original No. 10018 would have been built in the second half of 1863 and indeed Locomotive Committee minute 4494 of 6 October 1863 refers to the plan for a 30-ton wagon being submitted to the Chairman's Committee for approval. 

 

This wagon is my favourite among the special wagons - it has a sinuous grace lacking from the run of high-capacity trolley wagons, which tend to be crude, angular beasts. Unfortunately the only postable photos I've found do not do it full justice, being taken from an acute angle:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 62321.]

 

The official portrait, probably taken when new, is reproduced in Midland Wagons, plate 341. There is a paint date above the numberplate, unfortunately not legible in the book, but I expect that is where Essery got the 1885 date he quotes. The tare weight is 25-4-2; by the time of the 1906 photo above, it had put on a bit of weight: 25-10-0 [Midland Wagons, plate 342]. 

 

Not only is the wagon a thing of beauty itself but its drawing is an exquisite example of the draughtsman's art (P. Ellis) so I take the liberty of posting here a compressed version of a high-resolution scan:

 

 

[MRSC 88-D0037]. There are also several detail drawings in the Study Centre collection, including one showing the arrangement of the inside-bearing axleboxes, with grease flap on the inside of the bogie frames - easily (!) accessible by leaning down from the cross-framing of the wagon body.  

 

This was a long-lived wagon - Essery gives its page number, 123, in the LMS diagram book. The drawing is marked up in red with alterations dated 9 November 1921, to Special Works Order 3619, which involved removing the middle four cross-girders and fitting two transverse oak baulks, so that the wagon could carry an object 12' 9" diameter, projecting a couple of inches below the main frames, i.e. about 7" above rail level.

 

The Diagrams of various Trucks of special construction gives restriction D: "will not pass over Metropolitan Railway" and "before sending to L.C.&D. or S.E. Co.'s consult Goods Manager". 

 

Midland Wagons, p. 77, states that the wagon is not recorded in the lot book; lot 120 and Drg. 611 instead appearing in the list of D328 40-ton armour plate wagons, p. 67. It's easy enough to see why this was done, as this gives a total of 24 wagons built, matching the 24 numbers listed on the diagram, which list does not include 10018. (This, incidentally, demonstrates that Essery did not have access to the Derby Museums C&W drawing collection when compiling Midland Wagons in 1978/9.) The lot list description for lot 120 is "40 ton armour plate truck", the same as for lots 76, 243, and 416 of D328. These wagons also appear on the Diagram of various Trucks of special construction, represented by No. 34836:

 

 

These wagons were all (or nearly all) built as additions to the capital stock. Their origin goes back to Traffic Committee minute No. 22674 of 4 October 1881:

 

               In consequence of the Company only possessing one truck upon which armour plates can be conveyed and not having a crane of greater lifting capacity than 20 Tons no armour plates can now be obtained from Sheffield, it was therefore

               Resolved

                              That a Goliah Crane capable of lifting 35 Tons be provided at an estimated cost of £800 and that 6 twenty-five ton trucks be built at an estimated cost of £394 each the matter being referred to the Locomotive and Carriage & Wagon Committees respectively.

 

The Locomotive Department was responsible for cranes of all sorts. Financial approval for the six trucks was obtained in mid-November. Drg. 543 was ent ered in the register with date 9 February 1882; unfortunately it does not survive in the Study Centre collection. There is no indication of when the capacity was increased from 25 tons to 40 tons; whether this was before building or a later upgrade. The ironwork for the platforms was put out to tender, the contract going to Mr John Walley in March 1882; the time taken for the tendering process no doubt accounting for lot 76 not being entered until 21 April 1882. The lot list records numbers 34839-34844, all of which appear on the diagram and in the December 1913 list of special wagons [Midland Wagons, fig. 166 and fig. 126]. These numbers fit with the total wagon stock (excluding brakes) rising from 33,934 to 41,266 in the second half of 1882.

 

Here's No. 34842 and one other in service in 1910 - note that 34842 has been given oil axleboxes, but not the other:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64065].

 

The Traffic Committee requested a further six 40-ton trucks in March 1890, these were promptly approved and lot 243 entered on 28 March, to the same drawing. The lot list gives their numbers as 41623-41628; again all these appear on the diagram and special wagon list. This number range seems to be that that would have been reached c. 1890 by additions to capital stock in the usual course of events, were it not for the purchase of private owner wagons in vast numbers from late 1882 onwards - the total stock exceeded 97,000 by the end of 1890. This does support the suggestion that the bought-up wagons were numbered in a series that began at about 42000 and ran to around 109000. I do not think there are any examples of wagons built as additions to capital stock being numbered in that range but numbers in the 109xxx series were used for additions to stock from c. 1902.

 

The next call for more 40-ton armour plate trucks came from the Traffic Committee in June 1897, as part of a request that also included 20 12-ton case trucks (lot 415) and 10 15-ton implement wagons (lot 417). These were all approved the following month and their lots entered in the list with date 5 July 1897. A new drawing was produced, Drg. 1203 of 15 July 1887:

 

 

[Compressed high-res scan of MRSC 88-D0097]. The drawing shows the inscriptions SHUNT WITH CARE and To be returned to Sheffield.

 

The Traffic Committee had asked for 10 40-ton trucks but Lot 416 was for eleven, with one additional one being built as a renewal. The diagram lists 12 numbers in addition to the 12 of lots 76 and 243: 11019, 116065, 116067-74, and 117104/5. The special wagon list has 8 numbers: 11019, 116065-69, and 116072/3. Numbers 117104/5 are evidently a mistake on the diagram, since they are the numbers that appear on D725 and in the special wagon list for the pair of hot armour plate trucks of lot 471 of 1899. Presumably the ten additions were numbered 116065-74, with 116066 missing from the diagram but back on the special wagon list, which in turn is missing 116070/1/4. (The implement wagons of lot 417 were numbered 116055-64 and the case wagons of lot 415, 116075-94, or so one deduces from the special wagon list.) Three of these wagons were taken to form a 65-ton gun truck, according to Drg. 2964 of 1908 [MRSC 88-D1830]; that's where 116070/1/4 appear on the special wagon list but photos of this ensemble show one of these to be 41626, along with 41624 and 116068, according to captions. 

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64068]

 

I've come to think the wagon diagram book dates from c. 1914-15, i.e. after the special wagon list, but the diappearance of 116066 between the compiling of the two is a mystery.

 

No. 11019 is therefore the single renewal of lot 416. It would have replaced a wagon built in the second half of 1864. It's possible that that was the 30 ton wagon discussed in October 1893, and not 10018.

[jamie92208]

Interesting about armour plate.  Much of it was produced in Sheffield next to Midland metals. The main big shipyards were at Barrow in Furness, Midland and Then Furness railway,  Tyneside, Midkand the NER, Portsmouth, Midland thevprobably LSWR, The Clyde, Midland then probably GSWR, and London. Thus the Midland would probably get most of the traffic.  

 

Jamie