More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, magmouse said:

There is a photo of GWR wagons being loaded with Welsh whisky here:

 

This photograph and the history of the Frongoch distillery have been discussed before on RMWeb, somewhere. The photo is not all it seems - note the officer in khaki.

 

The Frongoch distillery opened in the early 1890s but went into liquidation in 1900, in part due to the influence of the temperance movement; it is evident that the photo does not date from this period. The site was used as an internment camp during the Great War, initially for German prisoners of war, but following the Easter Rising, Irish Republicans were interned there in large numbers, until the camp was closed following the change of government at the end of 1916. [http://www.easter-rising-frongoch.wales/7/]

 

It seems likely that the photo dates from this period, which would imply that the load is not whisky but general camp supplies.  

[41516]

23 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Were loaded barrels conveyed in vans, for security reasons?

 

BR were converting Tube wagons for palletised keg transport in the early '60s, so using open wagons never seems to have been an issue, right up until road overtook rail as the primary transporter of ale. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by 41516

[Mikkel]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

This photograph and the history of the Frongoch distillery have been discussed before on RMWeb, somewhere. The photo is not all it seems - note the officer in khaki.

 

The Frongoch distillery opened in the early 1890s but went into liquidation in 1900, in part due to the influence of the temperance movement; it is evident that the photo does not date from this period. The site was used as an internment camp during the Great War, initially for German prisoners of war, but following the Easter Rising, Irish Republicans were interned there in large numbers, until the camp was closed following the change of government at the end of 1916. [http://www.easter-rising-frongoch.wales/7/]

 

It seems likely that the photo dates from this period, which would imply that the load is not whisky but general camp supplies.  

 

There is a a fairly detailed story of the Frongoch distillery here:  https://www.whiskyinvestdirect.com/whisky-news/world-whisky-royal-welsh-frongoch

 

Interestingly, it says: "The final sale of bonded stock only occurred in 1917, a full 17 years after distillation occurred."

 

An occasion for a photo, perhaps?

[magmouse]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The photo is not all it seems - note the officer in khaki.

I’d wondered about him - nevertheless, if it isn’t whisky (and as Mikkel points out, it could be, even after the military take-over) it is casks being loaded/unloaded from wagons - and of course sheeted.

 

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

went into liquidation

I see what you did there…

 

Nick.

[kitpw]

In case anyone hasn't come across it, there's an article here https://stpancras.com/history/built-on-beer which describes beer traffic at St Pancras. The article includes the assertion that beer barrels were a sort of "tatami mat" of warehouse planning, providing a barrel sized 14' clearance grid between columns in the warehouse. The said columns are themselves curious as they have a column head at the top and another about 2/3rds of the way up, as if someone forgot to fit a mezzanine floor. As the article includes narrow boats, railway wagons, horse transport and motor lorries (and a particularly good overhead view of flowing trackwork) it should have wide appeal.

 

 

[billbedford]

8 hours ago, 37Oban said:

Regarding specialised barrel wagons, such as used by the Caledonian Railway, I think it was soon found out that they were uneconomical to operate.  At first they seem like a good idea but apart from empty barrels they were unsuited to other sorts of traffic and so spent half their lives running empty. 

 

Interesting. The NBR converted 40 redundant coke wagons to use as empty cask wagons in 1914. 18 of which lasted to 1940. The NB cask wagons were all either 10 or 12 ton capacity so could have bee used for full barrels. 

[Dave John]

The Caley built over a hundred cask wagons .

 

A bit about whisky. There was ( and still is )  the tourist malt whisky, wee distilleries in misty  highland glens, served by nice branchlines with a wagon or two.  Matured in fine casks for expensive tastes. 

 

Then there was ( and still is ) Industrial grain whisky. Distilled in big factories in the industrialised central belt and matured in vast sheds, blended to hit a price. exported in container tanks, sold to drinkers who just drink the stuff. Historically served by sidings, coal and grain in, lots of casks , whisky out by the gallon. 

 

Thats why the Caley and NB built them. They were obliged to carry imported empty casks for the grain whisky trade, so a big wagon with open slatted sides made sense. 

 

 

 

 

[jamie92208]

5 hours ago, Dave John said:

The Caley built over a hundred cask wagons .

 

A bit about whisky. There was ( and still is )  the tourist malt whisky, wee distilleries in misty  highland glens, served by nice branchlines with a wagon or two.  Matured in fine casks for expensive tastes. 

 

Then there was ( and still is ) Industrial grain whisky. Distilled in big factories in the industrialised central belt and matured in vast sheds, blended to hit a price. exported in container tanks, sold to drinkers who just drink the stuff. Historically served by sidings, coal and grain in, lots of casks , whisky out by the gallon. 

 

Thats why the Caley and NB built them. They were obliged to carry imported empty casks for the grain whisky trade, so a big wagon with open slatted sides made sense. 

 

 

 

 

Yes, complexes such as the Johnnie Walker place at, IIRC Kilmarnock.   Also ride the train to Alloa, you pass a huge complex of blackened whisky warehouses on the west side between Stirling and Alloa.  All looks to have been rail connected.   Also the big cask stores that you see beside the tracks in the Keith area.   There obviously used to be plenty of traffic for the railway.   All those had to come from the ports to the distilleries and blending and bottling centres.   They came from either south western Europe or the US, and still do.  I

 

Jamie 

[41516]

8 hours ago, kitpw said:

describes beer traffic at St Pancras

 

Generally a good summary, if a little thin in places, but to be expected as it's not an academic paper!

 

Many of those themes have been covered elsewhere in the thread  - St Pancras, Ale Stores, Brewery Agencies etc

 

 

And elswhere but with similar regular contributors,  the changes in beer styles and move to bottled beers

 

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by 41516
spelling - it's early

[37Oban]

7 hours ago, Dave John said:

Thats why the Caley and NB built them. They were obliged to carry imported empty casks for the grain whisky trade, so a big wagon with open slatted sides made sense. 

 

 

 

 

Hi,

 

that makes sense.  Not many industrial grain whisky stills in the misty glens!

 

Roja

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, kitpw said:

In case anyone hasn't come across it, there's an article here https://stpancras.com/history/built-on-beer which describes beer traffic at St Pancras. 

 

Several of the photos used there have been seen and discussed upthread. 

 

The wagon hoist was the scene of an unfortunate incident:

 

 

[E. S. Valentine, The Breakdown Train, The Strand Magazine Vol. XXI No. 28 (1901), via BDCA website.]

 

 

[R. Weatherburn, Breakdown Vans, The Railway Magazine Vol. 3 (Jan-Jun 1898) pp. 527-535.]

[41516]

The description from the magazine is excellent:

 

A large locomotive at St. Pancras suddenly took it into its head to plunge down a lift-way into an adjacent subterranean workshop.   It was, in the strictest sense, a clean dive, and there the locomotive lay, literally wriggling on its buffer, until the breakdown gang, with the aid of their steam cranes, hauled it out hind-foremost.

 

 

"But Driver always goes for a beer after work" said Thomas "Why can't I?"

[Compound2632]

I haven't been able to find out much about E.S. Valentine except that he apppears to have been a regular contributor to The Strand Magazine in its early years, possibly a staff journalist. He certainly has the journalist's knack of taking a technical article (Weatherburn's Railway Magazine piece) and turning it into an entertaining and informative piece for a general readership.

 

The Strand Magazine is best known for Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes stories so I was rather pleased to come across it in the course of researching Midland 29 ft carriages of 1875 converted to breakdown tool and mess vans around 1898, having identified a body at Foxfield as being one such, rather than a 31 ft composite of 1882-4. I really ought to have another go at that article, provisionally entitled The Case of the Foxfield Body.

 

There is a further railway connection: Sir George Newnes, founder of The Strand, was the driving force in the promotion of the Lynton & Barnstaple Railway. 

 

Which neatly takes us back to Midland wagons:

 

 

Manning Wardle 'Yeo' (Works No. 1361) at the Barnstaple Town transhipment siding, 1897. It has come from Hunslet loaded on boiler trolley No. 29570 or 29571. I've not been able to find a date for the delivery of 'Yeo' but this must have been one of the last outings for either of this pair of vehicles, built by the Patent Shaft Co. of Wednesbury in the second half of 1875, for £340 each. These two trolleys were renewed in 1897/8 by two of the four 30-ton trolleys built to Drg. 1204, lot 412, entered on 14 June 1897. The other two, Nos. 116345/6, were additions to stock, requested by the Traffic Committee in April 1897 and approved by the General Purposes Committee at the start of June, the cost being £481 each.

 

The above photo is a screen grab from L&B video presentation: 

 

 

[WFPettigrew]

2 hours ago, 41516 said:

literally wriggling on its buffer

 

😂

[Compound2632]

Another D357 8 ton covered goods wagon with left-facing brake lever:

 

 

[Crop from Warwickshire Railways mrls308b, a Derby official but not sure what number, Birmingham Lawley Street, supposedly 11 July 1910.]

 

I think the cross-shaft can be made out, appearing parallel with the brake push rod on the far side. No brake blocks on this side. 

 

The van to its right has (open) folding doors so is either a tariff van or a banana van.

[MarcD]

It could be an ex-SDJR road van as a number found there way into Midland stock post 1914. As they were not retained by the SDJR they must have been used for general goods by 1914. There is no record of them after 1914.

Marc

[Compound2632]

49 minutes ago, MarcD said:

It could be an ex-SDJR road van as a number found there way into Midland stock post 1914. As they were not retained by the SDJR they must have been used for general goods by 1914. There is no record of them after 1914.

 

The date of the photo is given as 11 July 1910, which would appear to rule that out. On the other hand, the freshly-painted M on an otherwise grubby van might point to the date being wrong. But on the whole, I think the preponderance of Midland stock (there is one Great Northern passenger-rated van) and lack of motor road vehicles points to a pre-Great War date, rather than this being from the large series of goods station photos taken in 1922. It would help if I could work out which DY number this is in the register.

 

Anyway, looking forward to your SDJR Road Van and MR Tariff Van...

[MarcD]

They should be in the post tomorrow.

Marc

[Compound2632]

A rather nice photo of part of a Midland goods train at Nuneaton Abbey Street station; the caption says 1920s but given the preponderance of Midland stock (and the types too) and lack of foreigners I'm incined to think it's actually pre-Great War:

 

 

[http://www.nuneatonhistory.com/on-midland-railway-lines.html]

 

From right to left:

• D351
• D299 (what's with the giant marshmallows?)
• D362 (Ellis 10A axleboxes I think)
• 2 x D299
• D362 (ditto)
• D299
• D339 double bolster with pole load
• D388 short timber truck as runner - I think converted from dumb buffers, work which was authorised in March 1904 but no doubt took several years to complete.
• D299 with poles stacked on end
• Assorted PO mineral wagons
• Uncertain lowside wagon
• D390 10-ton brake

Loco beyond?

[richbrummitt]

Are the stakes(?) on an MR bolster normally vertical when unloaded? If so those poles seem to be causing deflection that I’ve not seen represented on models. 

[2750Papyrus]

Are they part of the wagon or the  vertical(ish) lengths of the restraining webbing?

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, richbrummitt said:

Are the stakes(?) on an MR bolster normally vertical when unloaded? If so those poles seem to be causing deflection that I’ve not seen represented on models. 

 

It's a bit difficult to tell from the GA, Drg. 1113 [MRSC 88-D0157], but I think the stanchions just sit in hole in the fixed bolster. There was an iron plate on top of the bolster, to which I think the D-shackle was also anchored, but this acted more as a protection to the timber than as a structural element. The hole went right through the bolster, with the butt end sitting half on top of the solebar. There was no doubt some slop, which increased with age. Here's an extract:

 

 

Note this shows in red the additional stanchions for lot 629.

 

The official photo [Midland Wagons plate 153] shows the stanchions standing upright; two photos of wagons standing "at ease" (unloaded) when they were in one case about 25 years old and in the other over 40 [Midland Wagons plates 156 and 155] show the stanchions leaning inwards. The remaining photo [Midland Wagons plate 154] shows that the stanchions could be removed, if appropriate - the photo shows a load of girders held in place by chains (an interesting study in loading in its own right). 

 

Drg. 1113 is one of those that has a tale to tell. It is marked up in red ink for the changes made for lot 639, which saw the original 8-ton design up-rated to 12 tons, with oil axleboxes and additional stanchions; the wagons of this lot were classed as girder wagons rather than double bolster wagons and put on diagram D338. Also, Morton levers are noted for this lot; the date, March 1906, falls plumb into the "early Morton" period; one expects brake blocks on one side only and both levers facing the same end of the wagon, which is indeed what the two photos in Midland Wagons [plates 287 and 288] show; conveniently, one of each side of the wagon:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64075.]

 

The 8-ton wagons of lots 383 and 442 are on diagrams D339A and D339, the former showing original condition and the latter the bolsters moved slightly closer together and additional stanchions, matching the configuration of lot 629, D338. There is a pencil note on Drg. 1113 dated 19 Feb 1903, saying that seven trucks were so altered and giving their numbers: 236 (amended to 383), 6871, 12311, 34758, 34836, 34708, 32608. It's unclear if that means the red ink additions for the stanchions at least were added in 1903 rather than 1906, or whether the pencil note is retrospective! There is a drawing for the extra stanchions and their brackets, Drg. 1874, dated 3 Nov 1903 [MRSC 88-D1894], just to confuse the issue further.

 

To illustrate how one has to be careful in interpreting Derby C&W drawings, the Register lists Drg. 1114, "Details for Double Bolster Wagon", dated 15 September 1896 but the Study Centre copy [MRSC 88-D1964] bears the title "Details for 12 ton Girder Wagon" - in other words, it is a tracing or copy of the original drawing, brought up-to-date for lot 629. 

 

1 hour ago, 2750Papyrus said:

Are they part of the wagon or the  vertical(ish) lengths of the restraining webbing?

 

So, yes, in the Nuneaton photo, I think we see the stanchions located in the bolsters, bowing outwards under the force of the load. the load is secured with chains - I think the blob at the top of the nearer one might be the screw used to tighten the chain. (Webbing is an altogether modern invention.) What I can't make out is whether the chains are looped around the stanchions or extend down to the shackles on the bolsters.

 

It seems to me that the bolsters are closer together than the wheelbase, making this one of the modified wagons, D339, but with the extra stanchions not in place. I don't think it'd D388 because the axleboxes look to have vertical, rather than sloping, fronts, the same as the adjacent wagons - i.e. grease not oil. 

 

It is possible that more wagons were modified than those listed on the drawing. I find it interesting, in the light of D663A for 10-ton open wagons, that the altered wagons were on D339 and the unaltered ones on D339A; one would expect the other way round - compare the long low wagons, where the earlier 8-ton wagons were on D336 and the later 10-ton wagons on D336A!

Edited February 3, 2023 by Compound2632

[Chas Levin]

On 02/02/2023 at 16:15, Compound2632 said:

From right to left:

• D351
• D299 (what's with the giant marshmallows?)

 

Giant muffins, I thought?

[Compound2632]

Wagon sheets and use of trestles.

 

          Sheets must not be allowed to remain upon the ground or be used for yard covers.

          Defective sheets must not be used or kept on hand, but be sent to the nearest repairing depot.

           Colliery and other sidings must be carefully searched, and all sheets found must be collected, folded, and sent to the nearest depot or disposed of in accordance with instructions.

           Goods must be loaded and sheeted so as to form a shoot for the rain. In case of high-sided wagons, where the load is not sufficient to make a shoot, a trestle must be used, but where these are not available two sheets should be used, one being put carefully over the goods inside the wagon, and the other over the wagon in the ordinary way, care being taken to see that the strings are properly tightened and secured.

           sheets, trestles, wagon bows, wheel rests, and flat bottoms on hand must be returned to the depot of the district when not required; those belonging to other stations should be returned immediately to the owning station, accompanied by free invoice.

 

M.R. No. 26 Appendix (A) to the Working Time Table, January, 1922, until further notice, p. 275 [MRSC 00572].

[Compound2632]

Wagon Sheets and Trestles

 

         It is important that wagon sheets should not be kept on hand at Stations longer than is absolutely necessary. Complaint is made that Stations, when not requiring sheets, allow them to be sent away promiscuously, in loose condition, in otherwise empty wagons, and they thus get to Collieries and other places where they are not required. All such sheets must be removed, and if not required for immediate use, must be folded and sent to the Depot for the District, unless ordered otherwise. Sheets must under no circumstances be allowed to remain upon the ground , but if they cannot be sent to the District Depot they must be folded up, and placed in the shed or on sleepers.

          At Collieries, sheets are frequently placed on the top of loads of coal, and they must be removed at the first Depot they pass and put into use, unless it is evident they have been so placed to sheet the coal.

          When Foreign Companies' wagon sheets cannot be loaded back home in empty wagons, they will be sent in the Guard's Brake, when required, and in such cases a sheet label G.F. 19, will be attached to each side of the Brake.

          Wagon sheets must not be used for yard covers. Supplies of the latter must be obtained where the stock is inadequate.

          Defective sheets must not be used nor kept on hand, but must be sent into the shops fror repairs.

          Goods must be loaded and sheeted so as to form a shoot for the rain. In case of high-sided wagons, where the load is not sufficient to make a shoot, a trestle must be used, but where these are not available two sheets should be used, one being put carefully over the goods inside the wagon, and the other over the wagon in the ordinary way, care being taken to see that the strings are properly tightened and secured.

 

M.R. Appendix No. 20 to the Working Time Table, May, 1899, p. 269 [MRSC 00555].