More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[corneliuslundie]

Thanks Schooner, I knew roughly where it was in Cardiff.

Back on topic, it is great to see the model wagons. So some people actually make up the kits they buy rather than leaving them for their descendants (says he who has over 150 mostly kit and scratch built wagons - and only two awaiting attention in their packaging).

It is proving to be a very useful thread in identifying the strong and weak points of various kits, as well as informative about the prototypes.

One thing I would be interested to hear is how others approach modelling wooden brake blocks and the earlier types of brake gear - such as on the LNWR deal wagon. A little earlier than the Midland D299 but plenty still around in 1912.

Jonathan

[Chrisbr]

Going back to the loading of Deal, two extracts from the GWR General Appendix of 1905 may help.

 

Chris

[magmouse]

6 minutes ago, Chrisbr said:

Going back to the loading of Deal, two extracts from the GWR General Appendix of 1905 may help.

 

Chris

Oh, look - the GWR folks have intelligently stacked the load of deals organised by length. How neat and orderly, unlike the work of the MR types a few posts back!

 

(* ducks for cover and runs…*)

[Compound2632]

33 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Oh, look - the GWR folks have intelligently stacked the load of deals organised by length. How neat and orderly, unlike the work of the MR types a few posts back!

 

I refer you to the Vastern Road photo a few posts back!

[magmouse]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I refer you to the Vastern Road photo a few posts back!

Fair point - this lot were probably just performing for the Rule Book camera.

 

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

This ties in with the Derby C&W timber stocks. David Bain was making the point, in response to John Mathieson, the General Manager, pressing for larger wagons, that one couldn't immediately switch to 16 ft wagons if one had a timber yard full of material cut for three years' worth of 15 ft wagons. So timber was being seasoned on site, rather than being bought in unseasoned. I imagine there was a financial advantage to this too, providing a buffer against fluctuations in timber prices, but it does emphasise how much capital was tied up in running a railway - a long way from the modern, and rather flaky, just-in-time approach! 

 

I have been reminded of the 1911 article by Fred Crocker of the Derby C&W DO, reproduced in Midland Wagons. He mentions the saw-mill, where timber is "cut into scantlings of varying size and then taken to one of the four drying sheds... The seasoning process occupies about two years, and although there is apparently a large amount of capital lying idle, the time spent in the drying sheds, even from a shareholder's point of view, is the most profitable period of the timber's usefulness."

[jwealleans]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

At the ends, do the pipes stand vertical or lean in towards the centreline? @jwealleans?

 

Apologies, I've been away at a show this last weekend.   As has been said, the pipe leans in from whatever side the vac cylinder is on.   However when it reaches the centreline it is cranked such that the end of the steel pipe and the hanging flexible part are vertical.  This is the best picture I can find just now:

 

 

From a modelling point of view, I'd also say that making them like that makes coupling and uncoupling the vehicle unnecessarily hard and moving them out from centre and omitting the cranked section makes it all much easier and is well nigh impossible to see from side on.

 

[Penlan]

18 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

And re coffee stirrers, is it just round here or have they become much narrower in recent months
> 4 mm rather than 7mm

My Sainsbury's* Coffee Stirrers are 5.1mm wide and 1.01mm thick.
I did look at a couple of lengths of thin ply sleeper strip I had, but the lamination different colour's would have been obvious. I am very grateful for all the replies, most informative.

I have found some suitable chain in one of my boxes, so all change (soon, after a few other jobs).
I might redo the lettering to, slightly thinner, less height to it, it's only on one side anyway 😎
I'm inclined to think that the LNWR's 'descriptive' lettering on the sides of wagons became almost extinct around the turn of the 19th Century, as there's very few photo's that show such descriptions on the sides of wagons into the Edwardian period.
This is my model of a Bill Bedford's Glass Wagon 4mm kit based on a 1893 view at Forth Goods Depot - Newcastle.
Plenty of words here.

* Sainsbury's - Because I have a coffee, read the paper etc., whilst the family are shopping there, I collect 'extra' stirrers.

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, jwealleans said:

From a modelling point of view, I'd also say that making them like that makes coupling and uncoupling the vehicle unnecessarily hard and moving them out from centre and omitting the cranked section makes it all much easier and is well nigh impossible to see from side on.

 

Thanks. I'll confess that my 1950s period stock has tension lock couplings so what I loose on realistic appearance in that department I can gain by having the vac pipes correctly positioned!

Edited October 25, 2022 by Compound2632

[Nick C]

On 24/10/2022 at 16:19, Compound2632 said:

Googling around, I read that Canada Dock, Liverpool, primarily dealt in timber - from Canada.

I've been doing some research on the various smaller wharves that surrounded Southampton docks - and I've found that while 'Baltic Wharf' was a timber wharf (presumably dealing in timber from the Baltic...), the adjacent 'American Wharf' had a totally different purpose - it was home to a steam mill and bakehouse for baking biscuits for the Royal Navy during the American war of independance.

[Compound2632]

I've asked a carriage question in an obscure corner of the forum; linking to it here to give it some publicity:

 

 

[Compound2632]

No great mystery, it turns out; merely my ignorance of the published literature:

 

[MarcD]

Is there any real evidence that the Midland ever built any 3 box coal wagons? I have the works drawings for them and there is a note in the "Ince wagon" book that the Midland operated them. However essery doesn't mention this and I'm yet to find a photo.

Marc

[phil_sutters]

On 26/10/2022 at 15:49, Nick C said:

I've been doing some research on the various smaller wharves that surrounded Southampton docks - and I've found that while 'Baltic Wharf' was a timber wharf (presumably dealing in timber from the Baltic...), the adjacent 'American Wharf' had a totally different purpose - it was home to a steam mill and bakehouse for baking biscuits for the Royal Navy during the American war of independance.

Has this layout been mentioned in this context before? I think that it may have appeared in the model press. I can't remember if it was an ordinary timber importing quay or one related to sleeper production. The more I type the more I think that it was the latter as I remember something about the different length timbers needed for point manufacture.

 

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, MarcD said:

Is there any real evidence that the Midland ever built any 3 box coal wagons? I have the works drawings for them and there is a note in the "Ince wagon" book that the Midland operated them. However essery doesn't mention this and I'm yet to find a photo.

 

As it happens, I'm writing this up for part 3 of my lowside wagons article in the Midland Railway Society Journal. While a drawing, Drg. 1955, was prepared in March 1904 for a 3-box wagon, it appears to have been superseded by Drg. 1993 for the 4-box wagon in April 1904. The latter survives in the Midland Railway Study Centre collection, which tends to confirm that it was the version built; Drg. 1955 is not in the MRSC collection, but I see there is a copy in the HMRS collection, HMRS 1500, along with Drg. 1993, HMRS 1501.

 

These wagons were all conversions of lowside wagons, which is why they don't appear in the lot list. Approval was given for the conversion of 50 in August 1904, a further 25 in October, and a final 50 in May 1905, as recorded in the C&W Cttee minutes, TNA RAIL 491/258. All three batches were at a cost of £35 per wagon.

 

I have seen no evidence of any 3-box wagons; I assume that the most recent iteration of the design, the 4-box version to Drg. 1993, was implemented. That drawing shows a standard 14' 11" underframe with continuous drawgear (as does Drg. 1955) and all the photos I have seen show wagons with Ellis 10A grease axleboxes; this points to the conversions being from the 1,500 wagons built to Drg. 1143 in 1897 - 1899/1901, lots 394 and 448:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC item 64646.]

 

I have a high-res scan of this photo, from which the numberplate can be read as, probably, 33676, and there's a paint date of 20.1.23 under the arc of the crown plate of the nearer axleguard. Unfortunately the date on the builder's plate isn't legible.

 

 

[jamie92208]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

As it happens, I'm writing this up for part 3 of my lowside wagons article in the Midland Railway Society Journal. While a drawing, Drg. 1955, was prepared in March 1904 for a 3-box wagon, it appears to have been superseded by Drg. 1993 for the 4-box wagon in April 1904. The latter survives in the Midland Railway Study Centre collection, which tends to confirm that it was the version built; Drg. 1955 is not in the MRSC collection, but I see there is a copy in the HMRS collection, HMRS 1500, along with Drg. 1993, HMRS 1501.

 

These wagons were all conversions of lowside wagons, which is why they don't appear in the lot list. Approval was given for the conversion of 50 in August 1904, a further 25 in October, and a final 50 in May 1905, as recorded in the C&W Cttee minutes, TNA RAIL 491/258. All three batches were at a cost of £35 per wagon.

 

I have seen no evidence of any 3-box wagons; I assume that the most recent iteration of the design, the 4-box version to Drg. 1993, was implemented. That drawing shows a standard 14' 11" underframe with continuous drawgear (as does Drg. 1955) and all the photos I have seen show wagons with Ellis 10A grease axleboxes; this points to the conversions being from the 1,500 wagons built to Drg. 1143 in 1897 - 1899/1901, lots 394 and 448:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC item 64646.]

 

I have a high-res scan of this photo, from which the numberplate can be read as, probably, 33676, and there's a paint date of 20.1.23 under the arc of the crown plate of the nearer axleguard. Unfortunately the date on the builder's plate isn't legible.

 

 

As these were built for bunker coal for the boats at Heysham the size and numbervif the boxes may well have been dictated by two factors.

1) the available craneage at Heysham. And 

2) the handling and unloading arrangements  on the ships. 

 

2 may havecaltered during the detailed design of the ships that were to be coaled.  Without going over to the shed at this early hour I'm not sure what new ships were being built at that time.

 

Jamie

[MarcD]

So I'm not going mad as I couldn't find any evidence of the 3 box version, apart from the GA.

I was interested to find out about about 3 to 4% of wagons surveyed in Liverpool by the LYR in 1920 were of the 3 box type. That is both company owned (LYR/LNWR) and private owner. And most ran between various Lancashire collieries and the port. 

It suprising they don't show up on more photos. And if most box coal wagons were loaded in Lancashire where did the Midland source their coal from?

 

Marc

 

[WFPettigrew]

All this talk of bunker coal for ships makes me realise that I have never seen virtually nothing about how the steam ships using the port of Barrow were replenished with coal.  Certainly no evidence of 3 or 4 box wagons.  There is one photo from the Sankey collection from memory, which shows an FR open loaded with what appears to be coal, on the side at Ramsden Dock station, which would likely be for the approaching paddlesteamer from which the photo was taken.  Interestingly as said paddlesteamer was operated by the FR, the wagon is a standard open, not the design used for FR loco coal working (but then the FR had a rather open mind to "departmental" use - I have seen more photos of ordinary 2 planks in civil engineering use without any markings than those that actually have "Ballast" painted on the side). 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[MarcD]

If my memory is correct before the opening of Heysham the Midland used Barrow as its main port for Ireland and the isle of man. So what did they use for coal. There is the odd MR 6plk shown in photos of barrow docks but nothing in the way of coaling facilities. 

Marc

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, MarcD said:

It suprising they don't show up on more photos. And if most box coal wagons were loaded in Lancashire where did the Midland source their coal from?

 

Probably Yorkshire. I've been looking at a mineral inwards ledger from Skipton from the late 1890s; all the coal is coming from Yorkshire pits, east and south of Leeds; none from Lancashire via Colne. The Furness iron and steel industry used Yorkshire coal, coming over the Midland to Carnforth, the Barrow Colliery in the Barnsley coalfield being so named because it was owned by the Barrow Haematite Steel Co., though that firm also owned collieries in Lancashire and Cumberland. 

 

The port of Liverpool would require vast quantities of bunker coal which I think explains the high proportion of box coal wagons in Lancashire; as you say, Watts' Ince book has several examples, but they're all three-box wagons. As @jamie92208 says, there must have been some operational reason foreseen at Heysham that led to the change to a four-box design; note that this design change was made before the port opened and the first of the new ships were delivered.

 

6 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

I'm not sure what new ships were being built at that time.

 

Antrim, Donegal, and Londonderry for the Belfast run, and Manxman for the service to Douglas. Although to similar specifications, they were all built at different yards. Donegal was the odd one out, not being a turbine ship.

[WFPettigrew]

8 hours ago, MarcD said:

the Midland used Barrow as its main port for Ireland and the isle of man

Hi Marc

 

Yes that's correct - in that the MR ran boat train services all the way from St Pancras to Barrow, initially to Piel station and then once it opened, to Barrow Ramsden Dock.   However, the MR never ran steamer services from Barrow: it was a co-owner of the Barrow Steam Navigation Company, which was a three way partnership between the MR, the Furness Railway and James Little the Scottish shipping company.  I understand that this was in effect James Little running the service, with financial investment from the MR and FR. 

 

In contrast, the FR's service between Ramsden Dock and Fleetwood, which was the 1846 link to the outside world when the landlocked FR first opened and was revived by Alfred Aslett when he took over as GM and set about improving the FR's passenger fortunes by wooing thousands of tourists to visit the Lakes from the boarding houses of Blackpool, used vessels owned by the FR. 

 

I think the difference is that the FR from instigation had the powers to run such a service to Fleetwood whereas they (and I am fairly sure) the Midland did not have the powers to run sailings to Belfast or the Isle of Man - hence the BSNCo. 

 

So there is a difference of ownership and therefore the "customer" wanting coal for their ships was different - and it would seem likely that the FR would want to try and supply the coal to its own vessels to avoid having to pay someone else for hauling the wagons.  Quite who did it for the BSNCo is (even) more of a mystery!

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[Nick C]

On 28/10/2022 at 23:20, phil_sutters said:

Has this layout been mentioned in this context before? I think that it may have appeared in the model press. I can't remember if it was an ordinary timber importing quay or one related to sleeper production. The more I type the more I think that it was the latter as I remember something about the different length timbers needed for point manufacture.

 

That's Redbridge sleeper works, just west of Southampton. A very good model!

[Compound2632]

I was involved in exhibiting one of our club layouts, Erlegh Quay, at the Bracknell Railway Society's show today - a small local show but with some excellent layouts (quite apart from ours). They had a second hand stall at which i picked up some interesting bargains. In rough order of increasing excitement:

• Coopercraft Kit 2005 - tool kit - in very ancient packaging with the Watchet address - £3
• Ian Kirk "basic kit" 4M4 - GWR 5-plank wagon - bought as curiosity, really - £3
• Powsides transfers "Huntley & Palmers" and "R. H. Beaumont" - £1 each
• Geen LSWR D1410 van - £3.50! 

Something of a saving over ebay, I suspect! There were a couple more Geen kits, but for SR wagons, and more Coopercraft, but Provender Wagons (of which one can never have too few) and a van, which didn't really interest me.

[jamie92208]

Not quite wagons but yesterdsy at my 70th bithdaybpsrty I was given many liquid prsents but also one heavyish small box containing a Pirate Models wm kitbof a Ford Model T based railway delivery wagon.  It includes some LNWR transfers so will fearture as part of the road traffic 9nce I can find out what colour to paint it. How this appeared in very rural South Western France is another story altogether.

 

Jamie

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

what colour to paint it

If this question ever came up on the TV show QI (and let's face it, stranger things have been asked on there) , then surely Alan Davies would immediately shout out "black"...!  Probably earning the klaxon for the obvious but wrong answer...