More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[magmouse]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

EDIT: More. here's how to deal with deals:

 

 

[Embedded link to Warwickshire Railways mrcgy915d, Birmingham Central Goods Station, 1922.]

 

Note the wagon on the right still has its sheet at least partly in place.

 

 

It's curious in this and other pictures showing this traffic there seems to be little or no attempt to sort the boards by length. You'd think it would make handling and packing the load easier.

 

Nick.

 

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Penlan said:

I'm assuming (?) I may be able to cut up a load of wooden Coffee Stirrers for a load.

 

Hum. To model a load of sawn timber, am I going to have to start frequenting Costa, Starbucks, etc? That goes rather against the grain but I suppose I'll just have to deal with it.

[kitpw]

PAR was an expression which I only recall from, perhaps, 20 years ago.  Before that, timber was "sawn" to a size such as 4"x 2" and (within a tolerance) masured 4" x 2".  "Finished" timber was called up as "ex 4" x 2" in construction specifications which meant a further operation to reduce the size and to make the timber available for building in as window sub frames, door frames etc - finished ready for painting/staining. Otherwise, timber was moulded to produce skirtings, architraves and the like and was specified by drawing or reference to standard items provided by particular manufacturers/suppliers.

 

On the question of level of finish achieved, the paper I referenced above says this:

Prior to the Great Exhibition of 1851 woodworking machinery had remained primitive; planing and moulding machines had been in existence for many years; in 1776 Hatton invented an early planing machine but it was quickly superseded by the improved and more efficient machines of Samuel Bentham, the so-called father of saw-milling. His inventions provided the basis for the planing, boring, tenoning and mortising of wood throughout the late 1770s and well into the 1780s. Joseph Bramah improved upon Bentham’s planing machine in 1802 when he produced a machine that would also feed the wood through rather than remain static.

 

Once machinery was available for industrial scale planing (say by 1802), floor boards, for instance, would have gone from sawn to what we might now call PAR for general use (but probably not for farm buildings, workshops and the like).  I have little information about the geographical distribution of saw mills and finishing mills but I suspect that the larger proportion of transport of timber by rail was sawn (and imported as sawn particularly through the NE ports), off loaded at mills for re-sawing to smaller sections (and lengths) where necessary or planed and out shipped as "ex X" x X" finished timber. From the mills, finished timber would most likely have been distributed locally by road to end user - building sites must have been one of the largest markets for finished (and sawn) timber. 

 

 

[kitpw]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

That goes rather against the grain

...beware splinters.

 

[kitpw]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

In my models illustrated above, I made the boards from 20 thou plasticard, which gives a smooth finish - representing planed boards. But for a load of sawn deals (if you will excuse what is evidently a tautology) should some grain be apparent? (Thinking of @Penlan's coffee stirers.) 

Back tracking through the D299 thread, I remember that you quoted a MR drawing reference to "planed" timber for wagons... I couldn't find it off hand but I was convinced at the time! I also recall (but can't find!) a Lutyens building specification (date about 1910?) for finished timber "left plain from the saw" - that is, not planed.  I do wonder whether sharp blades properly set (+high speeds?) and decent seasoned timber cold produce a finish closer to "planed" than we would now recognise as "sawn" - but I have no evidence either way.

 

 

 

[Western Star]

40 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

... am I going to have to start frequenting Costa, Starbucks, etc? That goes rather against the grain ...

Oh dear, do you really think that coffee shops are going to know which way "deals" are "finished"?

 

Or even which way the "grain" runs on the stirrers?

[jamie92208]

48 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Hum. To model a load of sawn timber, am I going to have to start frequenting Costa, Starbucks, etc? That goes rather against the grain but I suppose I'll just have to deal with it.

Tyere'sxonoy one appropriate response to that Stephen.  Bring back this.

 

Jamie

 

[Schooner]

3 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

What do others think?

Yup, sawn boards, not round timber.

 

For traffic flows, it's worth bearing in mind that deals were largely imported from the Baltic and Canada and I think would most likely be seen on Ry Coy wagons running between stacking grounds at docks and the larger timber yards/mills/merchants*. Also possibly from these yards out for local distribution but, as I understand it, this wasn't their designed purpose.

 

*Although I've read (sorry, I forget where) that like the LNWR's wool wagons, also designed for seasonal import traffic, they'd as likely be seen in general use around the LNWR! Worth noting that my bias was for traffic through the Port of London network, particularly Millwall Docks pre-PLA, and may not be accurate elsewhere.

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Schooner
Flavour pic

[Compound2632]

31 minutes ago, kitpw said:

Back tracking through the D299 thread, I remember that you quoted a MR drawing reference to "planed" timber for wagons... 

 

I'll see if I can track that down

 

20 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Bring back this.

 

That was the general effect I was going for!

 

The replacement camera download cable has arrived so I've had a quick catch-up session. First up, the two Parkside RCH 1923 mineral wagons:

 

 

Then the "static" LMS D1666:

 

 

I hadn't mentioned the Cambrian kit for D1666's steel-framed sibling, D1667, which is a nicer kit, though by no means perfect:

 

 

it uses Cambrian's standard RCH steel underframe parts. I at least went to the trouble of scraping the PO wagon register plate off!

 

To round off open season, the Parkside LNER D1/120 fitted open:

 

 

This could do with an upside-down whirl on a bit of fine sandpaper to smooth off the tops of sides and ends. No vacuum pipes are provided; I have a packet of MJT whitemetal ones, but how should they be arranged? does the pipe run down the same side of the wagon as the brake cylinder or swap sides half way down - in which case how handed? At the ends, do the pipes stand vertical or lean in towards the centreline? @jwealleans?

 

The rather nice Parkside LMS D1661 cattle wagon, so far as I've got:

 

 

This uses the same axleguard / axlebox / bearing spring moldings as the RCH mineral wagon kits, as is right and proper, so I'm accumulating spare RCH solebars... I wonder if these Parkside parts might be a route to improving the Cambrian D1666?

 

And just to show that I haven't given up on pre-grouping modelling, here's a little experiment:

 

 

 

[41516]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

does the pipe run down the same side of the wagon as the brake cylinder or swap sides half way down - in which case how handed? At the ends, do the pipes stand vertical or lean in towards the centreline?

 

If you are looking the side on the wagon with the brake cylinder,  the brake pipe on the right hand end leans in from right to centre and and left hand end left to centre.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, 41516 said:

If you are looking the side on the wagon with the brake cylinder,  the brake pipe on the right hand end leans in from right to centre and and left hand end left to centre.

 

Got it. The brake pipe is the same side as the brake cylinder.

[WFPettigrew]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The east coast ports are usually associated with the Baltic timber trade. I wonder if the timber coming in through Liverpool was chiefly North American? 

 

I cannot speak for Liverpool, and am having to rely partly on dodgy memory* but the Furness Railway docks in Barrow imported large amounts of timber over the years.

 

I have revisited the online history of the port (written by Capt John Green, a long term head of ABP in Barrow) which states that timber imports were encouraged from Canada. 

 

* I cannot find much reference in either of the late Dr Michael Andrew's books about the FR and Barrow nor in Ken Norman's FR history but I am sure I have read somewhere that Barrow did import timber from the Baltic area.  I guess for a cargo which is far from perishable, then shipping it round to the west coast may be cheaper than landing it on the east coast and having to stump up for a longer train journey? 

 

One other thing which again I cannot yet find a local reference/explanation for, but part of Barrow docks had a large "timber pond" which was used to put imported timber into.  A Google search suggests that on the Clyde at least, such ponds were used as a way of storing and more easily sorting timber (you could just push them around til you found the bit you were after without all the heavy lifting).   This seems a daft thing to do with seasoned (i.e. nicely dried) wood, but they didn't have the kiln drying in those days, and that same Clyde reference also notes that large trunks were left for months or years on the banks to dry out before it was used for shipbuilding - suggesting perhaps that what went into the ponds was shipped green.  It does go on to say that once timber was shipped pre-cut (which is where we get back to our deals) then this practice stopped. 

 

Not sure this really takes the sum of human knowledge much further forwards, but hey... 

 

Neil 

 

PS how many of us have searched for coffee stirrers today and been frustrated that they only quote the length, and don't bother to mention the crucial two other dimensions?!

 

[phil_sutters]

3 hours ago, Penlan said:

Many thanks one & all, it seems the Coffee stirrers are to thick for 'proper' deal boards.  I don't think I have any veneer material to hand.
Re. the overhang, in LNWR Wagons Vol.1 it mentions the there's no upstand above the buffer beam, the top is level with the flooring to allow the overhang of timber?
It looks like I've a lot of white brake handles to paint over.
There's a bit of chain in the pockets, but a finer - perhaps 30+ links per inch - chain would be more suitable, I do have some, somewhere.  Another tweak job to be done.

Deal boards seem to vary in size quite considerably, both in cross section and in length. Search Google Images (other search engines are available) for 'deal porters' and you will see how the planks were handled from the ships to the storage areas and saw mills. There is a modern sculpture of a pair of porters - one carried the plank(s) and the other positioned them on his back - at Rotherhithe Docks -one of the major timber importing docks in London. One rule I heard of in relation to stacking timber was that it should be stacked with one end of the stack all level in the vertical plane with the odd lengths showing at the other end. When selecting timber you could find the longer or shorter lengths more easily. I expect that this was not always the case on docksides, but once in the areas for selection for sale, then this would have been helpful.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

suggesting perhaps that what went into the ponds was shipped green.  It does go on to say that once timber was shipped pre-cut (which is where we get back to our deals) then this practice stopped. 

 

This ties in with the Derby C&W timber stocks. David Bain was making the point, in response to John Mathieson, the General Manager, pressing for larger wagons, that one couldn't immediately switch to 16 ft wagons if one had a timber yard full of material cut for three years' worth of 15 ft wagons. So timber was being seasoned on site, rather than being bought in unseasoned. I imagine there was a financial advantage to this too, providing a buffer against fluctuations in timber prices, but it does emphasise how much capital was tied up in running a railway - a long way from the modern, and rather flaky, just-in-time approach! 

[41516]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Got it. The brake pipe is the same side as the brake cylinder.

 

Other way round - i.e pipes lean inwards towards the cylinder.

 

Unhelpfully for once, all the photos with D120s with vertical pipes on Mr Bartlett's site are all of the same end!

 

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/eb03a03d

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/e1f2b1ea1

 

Cylinder side

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/ed39657d

 

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by 41516

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, 41516 said:

Other way round - i.e pipes leanwards towards the cylinder.

 

OK. Either I can't tell left from right any more or I was standing on my head.

[Schooner]

7 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

One other thing which again I cannot yet find a local reference/explanation for, but part of Barrow docks had a large "timber pond" which was used to put imported timber into.

Timber ponds were a standard feature of all large dock- (eg https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16.1&lat=51.50180&lon=-0.04050&layers=168&b=1) and shipyards (eg https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18.3&lat=50.79890&lon=-1.10918&layers=168&b=1) I think.

 

I've also read of the salt-water-soak being part of the seasoning process, although that was in relation to oak at shipyards, and for buyers part of the selection process too - a walk along a floating plank really focusing the mind on that plank's density!

[Compound2632]

Googling around, I read that Canada Dock, Liverpool, primarily dealt in timber - from Canada.

[41516]

41 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The rather nice Parkside LMS D1661 cattle wagon,

Piped also, while they are out for the 5-plank?

 

The appears top be a number cluster of piped 2 plank lower door vans I've identified, 292372/292722 in LMS Wagon Vol1 and 29450? from The 4mm Wagon vol 3.

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, 41516 said:

Piped also, while they are out for the 5-plank?

 

The appears top be a number cluster of piped 2 plank lower door vans I've identified, 292372/292722 in LMS Wagon Vol1 and 29450? from The 4mm Wagon vol 3.

 

Hum. The ones built to Midland Lot 987 were a mix of piped and not piped. But numbers for this lot are a question. LMS 292xxx series or, perhaps more likely, numbers in the Midland sequence; as renewals they would have taken any old cattle wagon numbers.

[jamie92208]

56 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

 

I cannot speak for Liverpool, and am having to rely partly on dodgy memory* but the Furness Railway docks in Barrow imported large amounts of timber over the years.

 

I have revisited the online history of the port (written by Capt John Green, a long term head of ABP in Barrow) which states that timber imports were encouraged from Canada. 

 

* I cannot find much reference in either of the late Dr Michael Andrew's books about the FR and Barrow nor in Ken Norman's FR history but I am sure I have read somewhere that Barrow did import timber from the Baltic area.  I guess for a cargo which is far from perishable, then shipping it round to the west coast may be cheaper than landing it on the east coast and having to stump up for a longer train journey? 

 

One other thing which again I cannot yet find a local reference/explanation for, but part of Barrow docks had a large "timber pond" which was used to put imported timber into.  A Google search suggests that on the Clyde at least, such ponds were used as a way of storing and more easily sorting timber (you could just push them around til you found the bit you were after without all the heavy lifting).   This seems a daft thing to do with seasoned (i.e. nicely dried) wood, but they didn't have the kiln drying in those days, and that same Clyde reference also notes that large trunks were left for months or years on the banks to dry out before it was used for shipbuilding - suggesting perhaps that what went into the ponds was shipped green.  It does go on to say that once timber was shipped pre-cut (which is where we get back to our deals) then this practice stopped. 

 

Not sure this really takes the sum of human knowledge much further forwards, but hey... 

 

Neil 

 

PS how many of us have searched for coffee stirrers today and been frustrated that they only quote the length, and don't bother to mention the crucial two other dimensions?!

 

From memory tbe large dock at the south eadtern end of Barrow docks was the timber pond. I'll have to fi d a book to give the name of it.

 

Jamie

[corneliuslundie]

Cardiff Docks had a timber pond. I used to go down there with my father when he went there to order timber for DIY. That would have been planed, mostly 2 x 1 inch. Whether it was used for timber being brought in  for use as pit props I don't know, though there was a large import traffic for such purposes in earlier years. Oddly though it is not shown in Cooke's atlas. And I cannot see one in the maps I have of Cardiff, Barry or Swansea, though again they all imported timber for pit props.

Jonathan

[41516]

There is a list in Larkin's Acquired Wagons of BR Vol4 of lot 987 wagons that made it into BR service, but it would be pot luck on those fitted, piped or unfitted from the list.  M4203 pictured on the same page has Morton brakes and seems to have a vac cylinder lurking beneath. 

 

 

Parkside Diagram 120s - had a root through the photo archive (and another ebay rescue). One minor improvement that can be made is adding the butterfly cleats on the lower planks, sides and ends that are very clear in prototype pictures (as-built at least). I added these from the very fine Slater's micro rod with a good dose of solvent, then flattened the middle with a fine set of tweezers while the rod was soft to try and get the shape. 

 

Seen not very well here, alongside the capping rail/strips improvements and BR era straps/plates between floor and lowest plank.

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by 41516
roD not roT!

[Schooner]

26 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I cannot see one in the maps I have of Cardiff

Have two :)

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Schooner
Quote corrected

[WFPettigrew]

34 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

From memory tbe large dock at the south eadtern end of Barrow docks was the timber pond. I'll have to fi d a book to give the name of it.

 

Jamie

 

Jamie you're thinking of Cavendish Dock - which was never used as an actual dock, just a reservoir.  The timber pond was alongside the Anchor Line basin, now long since filled in.  See https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=15.4&lat=54.10047&lon=-3.22097&layers=168&right=ESRIWorld

 

All the best

 

Neil