More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[MR Chuffer]

Back to MR Shunters Trucks, there was some debate upthread about them and how many the Midland might have had, and that The Pregrouping Railways website having a model. Well I was researching single plank wagons this morning and was reading up on LNWR 1plk (Dia.1) and it says this:

 

The LNWR built 20,000 of these wagons between 1857 and 1904....... Even though they were built in vast numbers their numbers had dropped to 6 of the shorter wagon by 1923. However these wagons were rebuilt in to other wagon diagrams which also accounts for the low numbers in 1923. 75 were converted to shunter’s trucks (dia 51) between 1894 and 1910,....

 

Given the tendency for major (and minor) companies to "follow" fashions in wagon building, this is one big number of wagons for the LNWR to find usefulness in compared, say, to its arch rival the Midland.

[41516]

21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

What's the sticky down bit and where's the bottom framing?

 

Sticky down bits fit slots in the generic floor, the only items that help you with any alignment of the sides and ends!  You can see on Jamie's 3 plank where the middle door hinges drop into those - So there is no guarantee that by measuring anything off the kit you'll get a scale answer, where things have been fudged to fit the chassis moulding.

 

Bottom framing is the floor.  Other slots for a very toy-ish sliding door had been filled. 

 

A lot of 'bad' kits can be redeemed.  In this case, you're heading strongly into scratch-build territory to make good (which is why this one lives in a box on the shelf....was only a fiver though)

 

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by 41516
spelling

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, 41516 said:

was only a fiver though

 

The Slater's 7 mm scale D357 kit is listed at £33. It's a way more than 6.6 times more accurate representation of the prototype!

[41516]

I got my money's worth with an afternoon of cleaning things up and trying to work out where things could be rebuilt more accurately. Sometimes the answer is don't bother!

 

 

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, MR Chuffer said:

Back to MR Shunters Trucks, there was some debate upthread about them and how many the Midland might have had, and that The Pregrouping Railways website having a model. Well I was researching single plank wagons this morning and was reading up on LNWR 1plk (Dia.1) and it says this:

 

The LNWR built 20,000 of these wagons between 1857 and 1904....... Even though they were built in vast numbers their numbers had dropped to 6 of the shorter wagon by 1923. However these wagons were rebuilt in to other wagon diagrams which also accounts for the low numbers in 1923. 75 were converted to shunter’s trucks (dia 51) between 1894 and 1910,....

 

Given the tendency for major (and minor) companies to "follow" fashions in wagon building, this is one big number of wagons for the LNWR to find usefulness in compared, say, to its arch rival the Midland.

 

Comparing this with LNWR Wagons Vol. 1 pp. 58-59 inspires a little caution: "Some Diagram 1 wagons were modified in 1894-1910 to have steps and handrails as shunter's trucks to Diagram 51. It is possible that as many as 75 were so modified." (Taken together with the 146 converted to D39 glass wagons, this hardly accounts for there only being six D1s left in 1923 - the explanation for that is simply that, with the vast majority having been built before 1890 - 19,000 or so before 1884 - they were renewed by more modern wagons from c. 1910 onwards.)

 

Shunting wagons (to use what appears to be the official LNW terminology) are covered in more detail in LNWR Wagons Supplement No. 1. The story is too complex to copy out here but key points are:

• D51 refers only to two trucks built new in 1897 for the Birkenhead Extension Lines; these were narrower than D1 wagons and had 8' 6" wheelbase and brakes similar to those of the D16 brake vans.
• Apart from these two, the earliest minute referring to shunters wagons appears to be a Goods Conference minute of Jan 1900, calling for for conversions from low-side wagons, two for Coventry and two for Nuneaton; there are further minutes in 1902-4 calling for more "shunt wagons in lieu of brake vans".
• There is a suggestion that the introduction of shunters trucks was a way of avoiding having to use brake vans to comply with "Board of Trade legislation". As far as I can see, this can only be a reference to the Prevention of Accidents Rules, 1902, which were made under powers granted by the Railway Employment (Prevention of Accidents) Act, 1900, and came into force on 8 August 1902. These rules forbade propping and tow-roping, required sufficient lighting at stations and sidings where shunting was frequently carried on after dark, and dealt with the positioning and guarding of signal wires, point rodding, and point levers to prevent them being trip hazards. But they say nothing of brakes or brake vans - nothing that would motivate the introduction of shunter's tucks.
• There were 101 shunting wagons in 1919 but tare weights varied between the 4 t 4 c of a D1 and 9 t 4 c, so (it seems to me) not all were conversions from D1.
• The number and allocation are recorded for 25 wagons and a further 41 are known by allocation only, all this from Goods Conference Minutes.  Garston and St. Helens had seven each.
• Two photos show wagons in service, an example converted from a 16 ft D1 at Earlestown in 1923 (branded New Extension Sidings Warrington) and an earlier but post-1903 photo showing one behind a Class A compound at Carnforth. Details of the latter are obscured by the two shunters riding on the footboard, wearing broad-brimmed hats - probably straw - but in both cases apart from the footboard the only other modification seems to be the fitting of a handrail running about 3" above the top of the side, in line with the inside face of the side, as it is supported on stanchions bolted on that side. The footboard only has a low rear lip, unlike the tall board on the Midland trucks, so it would be easy to get your foot trapped between spokes and axleguard...

So the information in the Supplement doesn't quite tie up with Vol. 1 but probably represents more thorough research; no evidence is quoted for the 1894 date but from 1900 is well-attested. LNW shunting wagons seem to have been at least as numerous as their GW counterparts, and, typically, provided more economically.

 

Where does this leave the Midland trucks? There's no mention in the C&W Committee minutes; the equivalent of the LNW Goods Conference is the Traffic Committee - wading through those minute books would be quite a task...

 

No doubt the introduction of such trucks is associated with the general concern about the large number of accidents to railway workers that led to the Royal Commission on Accidents to Railway Servants (May 1899 - January 1900) and the 1900 Act but it does not seem to have been specifically mandated by that Act or the subsequent Rules.

 

When were the GW shunter's trucks introduced?

 

What about other companies?

Edited October 5, 2022 by Compound2632
Clarification that post-1903 refers to the date of the photo, not of the conversion of the wagon.

[41516]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

When were the GW shunter's trucks introduced?

 

The first pair of M1s in 1895 (GWR Goods Wagons 3rd edition  pg226) with others adapted without diagram before, total number stated as not known.

 

 

[jamie92208]

Thanks for the replies.  I'll probably label it ED and and put it in my engineers train. Then or possibly use it as a donor for an overhead cable drum wagon.

 

Jamie

Edited October 5, 2022 by jamie92208

[Compound2632]

I have now completed re-inserting images into this topic, apart from a small number I've been unable to locate in my files.

 

Obviously I am unable to restore images posted by others, so please can I appeal to anyone who has posted images here to re-post them if they are missing.

 

The simplest way to do this is to go to click on your username (top right) and then on "My Attachments" in the drop-down menu. It should then be clear which images are missing; click on the link for each one then edit the post in question.

 

I will now start re-inserting my images in other topics.

[jamie92208]

5 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Thanks for the replies.  I'll probably label it ED and and put it in my engineers train. Then or possibly use it as a donor for an overhead cable drum wagon.

 

Jamie

My forgetery whirred into action and I've now found thecphoto of the Midland wiring train on  page 10 of Issue 39 of the Midland Railway Society journal.  2 low side wagons are required.  One has the cable reel and the other a tower with two guys on it.  If I get a copy I will post it.

 

Jamie

[phil_sutters]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I have now completed re-inserting images into this topic, apart from a small number I've been unable to locate in my files.

 

Obviously I am unable to restore images posted by others, so please can I appeal to anyone who has posted images here to re-post them if they are missing.

 

The simplest way to do this is to go to click on your username (top right) and then on "My Attachments" in the drop-down menu. It should then be clear which images are missing; click on the link for each one then edit the post in question.

 

I will now start re-inserting my images in other topics.

When I look at 'My attachments' I find that I have 160 pages worth! All I can offer is to upload any that people ask for. I am gradually rebuilding the albums in my gallery.

[Rail-Online]

Just bumped into a lovely photo of the Goods Yard at Byfield SMJ (page xii) in this Historic England electronic publication on goods warehouses;

 

https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/publications/railway-goods-shed-and-warehouse-in-england/the-railway-goods-shed-and-warehouse/

 

Looks like there is a D299 with a full load of house coal - and the wagon number is just about readable.....

 

It is a new pic to me anyway!

 

Cheers Tony

Edited October 6, 2022 by Rail-Online
additional info

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, phil_sutters said:

When I look at 'My attachments' I find that I have 160 pages worth! All I can offer is to upload any that people ask for. I am gradually rebuilding the albums in my gallery.

 

Fair enough - I only had 80 pages (not all this topic, of course).

[Compound2632]

37 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

Looks like there is a D299 with a full load of house coal - and the wagon number is just about readable.....

 

I've looked at that before and concluded I couldn't make out the number. But any offers?

 

It's interesting not just for the loading of the coal in the wagon but also the stacking on the ground. None of those mythical pens, but a proper "dry coal wall" built up of larger pieces on the side away from the wagon, with more of a heap on the side nearer the siding - space into which this wagon will be unloaded. 

 

But there's also a rather more untidy heap of coal next to Hancock & Russell's booth at the corner of the shed.

 

The LNW D32 or D33 covered goods wagon is number ?137?.

 

The cattle wagon would appear to be a native vehicle:

 

 

[Embedded link to Warwickshire Railways smjsa353.]

 

The caption usefully give a date of 1904 for this S.W.A. Newton photo and notes that at this date the line was the East & West Junction Railway, which does beg the question of what the lettering is on the cattle wagon. My guess is:

 

No. ? X E & I I W X JR

 

where the Xs and Is stand for the framing.

[Northroader]

Well done on rebuilding all the missing pictures on your thread, I’m plodding through a similar job on my continental thread. I tried your tip of looking through the attachments, but when I reached the void of last March, all I get is a blank box, and an address which just gives me dumb insolence when I click on it. I’m assuming this is because I don't store the images on my pad, so I’m just going on recreating them all.

 

[sir douglas]

to me it looks like S.M.J. 62

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

to me it looks like S.M.J. 62

 

Sorry, I meant in the Byfield photo in the Historic England publication.

[jamie92208]

2 hours ago, Northroader said:

Well done on rebuilding all the missing pictures on your thread, I’m plodding through a similar job on my continental thread. I tried your tip of looking through the attachments, but when I reached the void of last March, all I get is a blank box, and an address which just gives me dumb insolence when I click on it. I’m assuming this is because I don't store the images on my pad, so I’m just going on recreating them all.

 

That's the way it is unfortunately.  All you get iscthat thumbnail.  You then have to reload the image from file from wherever it's stored.  Then you have to delete the icon and attached link. The job can only be done from the My attachments list to find which are blank then editing the actual post.  What you can't edit is where the image is in a post where you have been quoted.  That can only be done by the person who quoted you.

 

Jamie

[MarcD]

I like the SMJ cattle van is interesting. I haven't seen it before.

Marc 

[jamie92208]

Here's the photo of the MR wiring train courtesy of Dave Harris and John Allsop.

It should keep me busy for a while.

 

Jamie

Edited October 6, 2022 by jamie92208

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Here's thecphoto of the MR wiring train

 

The tower wagon was a new-ish lowside wagon. Note the oil axleboxes, and the left-facing brake lever. This points to it being from lot 631 or 636, built between the end of 1905 and mid-1907. The brake vee-hanger is mounted behind the solebar, supporting a cross shaft, this being the form of Morton brake in which both levers have the simple clutch. The cable drum wagon's brake gear is hidden from view so the best one can say is that the stop-blocks on the ends of the sides mean that it is no earlier than lot 394, built from early 1897.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Compound2632
typo.

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The tower wagon was a new-ish lowside wagon. Note the oil axleboxes, and the left-facing brake lever. This points to it being from lot 631 or 636, built between the end of 1905 and mid-1907. The brake vee-hanger is mounted behind the solebar, supporting a cross shaft, this being the form of Morton brake in which both levers have the simple clutch. The cable drum wagon's brake gear is hidden from view so the best one can say is that the stop-blocks on the ends of the sides mean that it is no earlier than lot 394, built from early 1897.

I'll use the 3 Aitch one for the cable drum then and the Slaters one for the tower wagon.

 

Jamie

[MarcD]

Interesting photo. It's the first time I have seen a Midland wagon with a brake lever pointing in that direction.  

Marc

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, MarcD said:

Interesting photo. It's the first time I have seen a Midland wagon with a brake lever pointing in that direction.  

 

Midland Wagons plates 71 and 72 are clear examples. I think this arrangement of the Morton brake was applied to the 2,600 D305 lowside wagons of lots 631 and 636, built 1906-7, but no other Midland wagons. The more familiar arrangement of the Morton brake, with a cam and right-facing lever, was used on the 1,000 lowside wagons of lot 682, the off-side lever being interestingly curved. All subsequent D305 wagons, from lot 718, had independent eitherside brakes with long brake levers. This is fully discussed in my article in Midland Railway Society Journal No. 79 (Summer 2022).

[corneliuslundie]

Some other companies also had the left-hand lever arrangement in the early days of either side brakes, before the Morton cams came into use. I have built models of a couple. Was it to avoid royalty payments?

Jonathan

[MarcD]

2 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Some other companies also had the left-hand lever arrangement in the early days of either side brakes, before the Morton cams came into use. I have built models of a couple. Was it to avoid royalty payments?

Jonathan

it was a very common practice with English and Welsh companies. Even the original, should we mention them, GWR's DC1 brake had leavers at the same end.  Scottish company wagons had a tendency to only have a single brake block on one wheel on one side so when t came for them to fit the extra brakes it was just another singe block on the opposite side.

 

As a side I have just retooled my MR/LMS Medium Cattle van, and the MR/LMS Tariff, SDJR Road van and the MR/LMS unfitted Banana van should be ready by this time next week.   

 

Marc