More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Dave John]

The Hurst Nelson looks like a nice kit, I'm sure I could find a user local to the CR. 

 

 

[billbedford]

I'm afraid this is not MR it's GNR, but does anyone know what the little rings were for? The two one the cross braces could be for tying the doors open, but the ones on the ends?

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by billbedford

[jamie92208]

Just a random thought, I have seen photos of vans with wagon sherts over them. Could they be tie downs for that.

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

On 28/08/2022 at 22:57, Dave John said:

The Hurst Nelson looks like a nice kit, I'm sure I could find a user local to the CR. 

 

I did come across this site: http://www.buckhaven.info/html/private_owner_wagons.

 

None are an exact match for the kit and most have cupboard doors. 

 

The HMRS photo collection has a large Hurst Nelson element but is rather short on thumbnails...

Edited August 30, 2022 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, billbedford said:

I'm afraid this is not MR it's GNR, but does anyone know what the little rings were for? The two one the cross braces could be for tying the doors open, but the ones on the ends?

 

2 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Just a random thought, I have seen photos of vans with wagon sheets over them. Could they be tie downs for that.

 

All three photos of outside framed vans in Tatlow Vol. 1 have them, but they are absent from the later inside-framed vans. I suspect Jamie is right here and maybe by the time the photos were taken (early LNER days) these older vans had leaky roofs. 

 

Tie-rings are common on cattle wagons, usually just below the open section of the sides, sometimes inside as well as outside. The inside ones would be used for tethering beasts but I think the outside ones were for sheeting the wagon. There were some classes of traffic, such as horses, that didn't travel well if they could see out. 

[Paul Cram]

10 hours ago, billbedford said:

I'm afraid this is not MR it's GNR, but does anyone know what the little rings were for? The two one the cross braces could be for tying the doors open, but the ones on the ends?

 

Horse shunting?

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Paul Cram said:

Horse shunting?

 

 There's a hook on the solebar for that, as always. Giraffe shunting, maybe.

[jamie92208]

35 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 There's a hook on the solebar for that, as always. Giraffe shunting, maybe.

From experience with horse trams the horse attachment is always low down, as Stephen says below the solebar. The tram we restored had them at each end to attach trace horses to get them up steep hills.  If the shape was right the trace just dropped off.  I was told that the trace horses knew exactly where there patch started and finished and also how many runs before they stopped for a break and feed.

 

Jamie

[Miss Prism]

My guess is alternative places for tying the doors back.

 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

My guess is alternative places for tying the doors back.

 

 

On the middle end pillar?

 

I can't off-hand think of any other instances of cupboard door vans where it was felt necessary to provide for tying the doors back. Besides which, there would need to be something on the doors for a tie-rope or chain to attach to too.

[Asterix2012]

2 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

From experience with horse trams the horse attachment is always low down, as Stephen says below the solebar. The tram we restored had them at each end to attach trace horses to get them up steep hills.  If the shape was right the trace just dropped off.  I was told that the trace horses knew exactly where there patch started and finished and also how many runs before they stopped for a break and feed.

 

Jamie

Great grandfather was a carter, in Dundee there is a very steep road called the hill town.

 

Story is he had a sack of sugar around a hundredweight to deliver to a shop at the top of the steepest part of the hill.He did not want to cause his horse a lot of strain and he was a strong sticky man so he put the sugar sack on his back and toon it up the hill.

 

When he dumped the sugar in the shop the shopkeeper told him to look behind him

 

The horse had followed him up the hill.

 

There is a railway tie in as he worked in the goods department of the North British and LNER.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Asterix2012

[Dave John]

With regard to the NE wagon I note that there is a ring on the diagonal of the rhs door as well, so perhaps not for tying doors back.   These were clearly piped with screw links for use with passenger trains .

 

I wonder if water ingress at higher speeds was an issue ? If so the loops may well be for tying down a wagon sheet over the top of the van to protect valuable goods from water damage ? 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Dave John said:

These were clearly piped with screw links for use with passenger trains .

 

The buffer guides have been packed out, so that longer buffers could be fitted, concomitant with screw couplings, suggesting the van was not built piped but subsequently up-graded.

 

I don't think there can be any connection between the rings and the van being piped as the other two photos in Tatlow that show these are unfitted vans with grease axleboxes. Howevever, one of them does also have a ring fixed to the framing of each door. I don't think this supports the tying-the-door-back theory, as to my mind that is disproved anyway by the ring on the middle end pillar.

 

I wonder if @jwealleans has any idea? It's more his region of expertise.

[Compound2632]

Back to Fox transfers, the post has just brought a set of CAM )!( RYS transfers, so I should move my two Cambrian wagons up the paint shop queue. These were bought via the Welsh Railways Research Circle website; designed by Richard Evans of CamKits* and made for them by Fox. They look good. I didn't get any of their numbering sheets, on the grounds that i've got a box of transfer sheets with digits of all sorts of sizes...

 

I'm unlikely to use more than two of the four pairs so I find myself wondering what 19th century PO wagon could make use of the letters A C M R S and Y! While most PO wagons of the period used block lettering, a few did use a serif style, notably the Clay Cross company - but obviously there aren't the letters for that here.

 

*Which prompts me to wonder how that 1102 is coming along...

Edited August 30, 2022 by Compound2632

[Dave Hunt]

51 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I find myself wondering what 19th century PO wagon could make use of the letters A C M R S and Y! While most PO wagons of the period used block lettering, a few did use a serif style, notably the Clay Cross company - but obviously there aren't the letters for that here.

 

With an apostrophe you could make MARY'S.

Just sayin'

 

Dave

[jwealleans]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

wonder if @jwealleans has any idea? It's more his region of expertise.

 

I'd only vaguely registered those rings, so I asked in the GNRS.   They only seem to appear on the outside framed general service vans, not on those for specific traffics.   There's nothing on any of the diagrams to hint at what they were for.  Sheeting seems to be the most sensible idea, but there's an official photo of a sheeted van and the rings have not been used to secure it.

 

For the moment I can offer no better explanation.

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

*Which prompts me to wonder how that 1102 is coming along...

 

Only a few weeks away, Richard Evans says.

[billbedford]

5 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

I'd only vaguely registered those rings, so I asked in the GNRS.   They only seem to appear on the outside framed general service vans, not on those for specific traffics.   There's nothing on any of the diagrams to hint at what they were for.  Sheeting seems to be the most sensible idea, but there's an official photo of a sheeted van and the rings have not been used to secure it.

 

 

No doubt it was a good idea at the time, but no one remembered what it was. 

[John-Miles]

18 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Only a few weeks away, Richard Evans says.

I was promised mine for July!!

[Compound2632]

Another day at The National Archives and I've now got through abstracting the wagon info from the Carriage & Wagon Committee minute books and the two Locomotive Committee minute books that pre-date the formation of the separate C&W Committee in mid-1873. so that takes me back as far as January 1863. I've booked another visit for next week; whether I'll be able to polish off the first three volumes of the Loco Committee minutes, covering 1849-1862, we'll have to see. I'm booked for Thursday, which is the evening the reading rooms stay open late.

 

To tidy up a couple of loose ends:

 

First, for Simon, @Regularity, the second sale of old carriages to the SMJ was authorised by minute No. 5305 of 1 Nov 1912, this being an old bogie third and an old bogie third brake, at £161-13-8 each - a small discount on the going rate of £165! These were the carriages that became SMJ Nos. 31 and 32: 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/smj_misc360.htm 

and 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/smj_misc359.htm. 

The former Midland numbers given there are cyphered with a leading 0, indicating that they were already, unsurprisingly, on the duplicate list. The 40 ft third was a luxurious vehicle, one of a large batch that were 6' 6" between partitions, rather than the 6' 0" that was standard for Clayton's arc roof carriages of the 1880s - it was only with the square-light clerestories of 1896 onwards that 6' 6" became the standard third class compartment dimension.

 

Secondly, and not from today's visit but something I forgot to report back on last time: I did look up the Traffic Committee minutes to see if they shed any further light on the D299 wagons with sheet rails and branded TO BE RETURNED TO SIX PIT (at least according to the minutes). Traffic Cttee minute No. 34334 of 1 June 1906 says no more than is reported in the corresponding C&W minute. However, Traffic minute 33983 of 4 August 1905 does provide an unambiguous link to the spelter industry:

 

Sixpit

Resolved that altered and additional siding accommodation be provided alongside the Swansea Vale Spelter works at Sixpit, in accordance with the plan now submitted, at an estimated cost of £160, and the matter was referred to the Way and Works Committee.

 

 

[wagonman]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but Archer are going out of business...

 

https://www.archertransfers.com

 

 

[Dave John]

That is sad news Wagonman, though I understand why and  wish him a happy retirement. 

 

I wonder if someone will take over the range . 

[Compound2632]

That is a shame. I've just panic bought from Historex Agents of Dover, a shop Mike @airnimal put me on to, having previously bought from DCC Supplies, who ceased to carry the range. Unfortunately the sheet I've been using, AR88064 "5/8 inch streetcar rivets O scale" isn't available, so I've gone for AR88063, which is 7/8 inch rivets. I've been feeling that there are places where a larger size would be good and I've got about 1/3 of the 5/8 inch sheet left. I've also got AR88025, 7/8" head rivets in H0 scale, which I'd rapidly decided are too small for wagon nuts and bolts. But at £21.90 per sheet including postage, I'm reluctant to go wild.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
Name of former supplier corrected.

[41516]

1 hour ago, wagonman said:

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but Archer are going out of business...

 

There are alternatives (for rivets/bolt heads at least) available from AK Interactive, Hgw, Micromark and Microscale - Not used any of them personally, but might need to look into things when my Archer supply gets lower.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by 41516

[Asterix2012]

What sizes are best for nuts and rivets?