More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

It's now working as I would expect but at lunchtime it was just a grey box with something like image  12345.jpg written inside which opened to a blank page with a miniscule blue square in the middle.

 

I think what's going on is that the Study Centre website was being slow to load images.

[WFPettigrew]

4 hours ago, airnimal said:

Could it be from the Furness Railway ? 

 

I did wonder, but no.  The FR did have two types of roof door vans dating back to about the 1870s - so would have fitted with the dating of this photo, and one type did have two panels either side of the door, but theirs had the doors inset, and each door had two vertical panels on them, with no horizontal rib.

 

See this heavy crop of a photo featuring one of the smaller ones (with a larger sibling alongside) - the original shows a rake of the FR roof door vans at the old papermill in Ulverston sometime after 1903.

 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

 

[Compound2632]

Following on from that "William Kirtley" covered goods wagon, here's something else that's caught my interest:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 92223, Ian Howard Collection.]

 

The catalogue caption reads: "Gloucester, High Orchard branch, around 1905. A broadside view of 0-6-0T No. 1125A, its enginemen in the cab, coupled, bunker first, to coal wagons. Allocated to Gloucester, No. 1125A was normally out-stationed at Dursley. Here, it was shunting coal wagons on a trip from Gloucester shed back to Dursley. This engine was ex-Severn & Wye railway 'Sabrina'."

 

The engine has had footsteps added just ahead of the tank, and a handrail on the tank front, a piece of uglification (though no doubt very welcomed by the enginemen) that was added to tank engines from 1903. It was renumbered 1607 in November 1907 and moved to Burton in or by 1908 [S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 3 (Irwell Press, 2002) p. 193]. 

 

On the left of the engine is a very freshly-painted D299. But the real curiosity is the line of wagons behind the engine, which have evidently been out in the smoke for a good while. 

 

The one behind the D299 is a five-plank wagon; it looks a little deeper than the D299, say 3 ft, and has a raised end in the form of a continuous arc. It is labelled CO - presumably LOCO - and below that, in script, 8 Tons - possibly preceded by what might be the word Load or, since the visible letter doesn't have a noticeable ascender, To Carry - which is a bit of a hint. 

 

The wagon part-hidden by No. 1125A's bunker is dumb-buffered and is of a more antique construction, the corner plates not being full height, with a corner bracket plate at the top. It too is lettered LOCO but where the other wagon has the capacity, this one carries the number 05839. To its right is another dumb-buffer wagon with raised end.

 

I'm pretty sure these aren't Midland ex-PO wagons. I think they must be Great Western - as suggested by the italic style of capacity marking - or rather, wagons on hire to the Great Western, as suggested by the number beginning 0. 

 

I get easily confused by the geography of Gloucester's goods branches but the density of trackwork suggests that this must be the middle of High Orchard yard, with the Gloucester Wagon Co.'s works behind the photographer and Baker Street behind the sidings, the large buildings being perhaps the malthouses marked on the map: 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/109725538.

 

This is firmly Midland territory, with only a tenuous connection to the Great Western's dock branch on the west side of the canal. One would have thought that if loco coal wagons were being loaded from the canal, the Great Western's ones would have been loaded at a quay on the west side. In any case, they're presumably only going as far as the Great Western loco shed.

 

No. 1125A and No. 1126A, formerly S&Y 'Forrester', were at this time the Dursley branch engines. The implication of the caption seems to be that it is seen here foraging for loco coal to take back to Dursley. 

 

So, has anyone seen the like of these presumed Great Western hired loco coal wagons?

 

And are they red?

Edited 11 hours ago by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Oh dear. I am being seriously distracted by photos from the Ian Howard collection recently added to the Midland Railway Study Centre website. Here's a charming view of S&DJR 0-4-4T No. 52 at Bournemouth West:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 93536.]

 

The engine was the first of the Vulcan Foundry batch of four, delivered in December 1884, is siblings following the month. It is seen here bore reboilering in September 1902 - the replacement boiler, being of two rings rather than three, had the dome further forward [D. Bradley and D. Milton, Somerset and Dorset Locomotive History (David & Charles, 1973) pp. 78, 207]. (More uglification; as with the footsteps, R. Mountford Deeley is not to blame.) 

 

Anyway, 'edge of the negative':

 

 

[Compressed crop from high-res scan of MRSC 93536.]

 

Some typical LSWR opens and a couple of LNWR D1 one-plank opens - in themselves interesting at this location. But my main interest is Pinxton wagon No. 824. Dumb buffered, four-planked, with the top plank through, end door, corner straps rather than corner plate. I think the fixed end is raised in an arc. 

 

Pinxton Colliery was in the very heart of Midland territory but with a railway history pre-dating the Midland itself by a quarter of a century. There's an article in Turton's Sixth Collection, pp. 126-8. He says Pinxton coal was widely distributed including the south coast "where it was well known in Southampton and Portsmouth" - to which we can add, Bournemouth.

 

Turton has a couple of photos showing a later livery style but one, taken at Sileby c. 1920, showing a similar style to this Bournemouth wagon, although a more modern wagon, perhaps of 1890s vintage. From this it's clear that the lettering on the top plank reads EMPTY TO. The number, 390, is on the bottom plank at the left, rather than on the door, in conformity with the preference that seems to have become established shortly before the Great War (though noting the GW's switch of number from right to left  around 1893). The italic lettering on the bottom plank, one line on No. 824, is two lines on No. 390, where it might read

Collieries Ltd.

Nottingham

by analogy with the later lettering style:

[Embedded link to image of Bachmann 37-100 on Hattons' website.]

 

That model accurately represents the lettering style of No. 718 as illustrated in Turton's article, for all that it's a 12 ton RCH 1923 specification wagon rather than the prototype 10-ton wagon, built 1906. 

 

But the italic lettering on the bottom plank of No. 824 looks too long to be

Collieries Ltd. Nottingham.

 

No. 390 has shaded lettering, suggesting that it is grey, or possibly red, as one would also conclude for No. 824. If pushed, I'd plump for grey - I think red would look darker, even if well worn. Curiously, there is much later evidence for black-shaded lettering: a couple of photos, reprduced in Midland Railway Society Journal No. 83 (Winter 2023) of No. 1137, an RCH 1923 wagon, coaling the Royal Train engine at Carlisle Kingmoor in July 1947 by the extraordinary expedient of being dangled over the tender from the jib of Kingmoor's brakedown crane. In one photo, two men can be seen standing in the wagon twenty feet or more above ground level but quite how they got the bottom doors open doesn't bear thinking about...

[Mol_PMB]

Lima had a different interpretation of the livery:

As does a local feature recalling the colliery:

 

I have just flicked through my copy of 'The Great Northern Railway in the East Midlands Vol.3' which includes the Pinxton branch. Sadly no Pinxton wagons to be found in the book though. 

In passing, I did note a nice photo on p.75 dated 1904, taken between Codnor Park and Pye Hill where the GNR and MR were adjacent, which includes at least two (possibly up to four) PO wagons from Read & Son, Salisbury. Another example of Midlands coal heading to LSWR territory. Inevitably there's a D299 present as well.

[Compound2632]

Another one. I must stop! 1357 Class 0-6-0 No. 1602 at Nottingham, "later 1880s":

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 93296, Ian Howard Collection. The caption notes that the background has been whited out.]

 

This engine was from a batch of 50 built by Beyer Peacock, this one being delivered in September 1883. Beyers had been delivering beyhind schedule, The specification, dated 1 November 1881, specified the then standard green livery but whether that was changed to red for later engines of the batch - the last five were delivered in March 1884, fifteen months late.  No. 1602 was one of ten that went new to Nottingham and were still there in April 1892. No. 1602 was rebuilt with larger cylinders in December 1892; this photo dates from before that. [S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 4 (Irwell Press, 2005).]

 

Anyway, what:

 

 

[Crop from high-res scan of MRSC 93296.]

 

Three wide planks - 2' 9" - 3' 0" deep? - no side door. But:

M

COAL

049

?

 

The wagon on the other side is a Midland ex-PO, four planks, relatively recently painted Midland grey with MR lettering. Another wagon can be glimpsed between the legs of the man with the oiler - another four-plank, with through top plank.

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

In passing, I did note a nice photo on p.75 dated 1904, taken between Codnor Park and Pye Hill where the GNR and MR were adjacent, which includes at least two (possibly up to four) PO wagons from Read & Son, Salisbury. Another example of Midlands coal heading to LSWR territory. Inevitably there's a D299 present as well.

 

[Mol_PMB]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Read & Son Salisbury

I think there are four here, two larger ones and two smaller.

The smaller ones have the same lettering layout as your Lickey example.

Sorry, this is a phone photo of a rather poorly reproduced original in the book.

Dated 1904 and credited to British Rail.

 

[41516]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

hotos from the Ian Howard collection recently added to the Midland Railway Study Centre website.

 

Is there an easy way to find the collection or browse as a whole? I can't seem to find an option to search by donor.

[Compound2632]

26 minutes ago, 41516 said:

Is there an easy way to find the collection or browse as a whole? I can't seem to find an option to search by donor.

 

I don't think there is. I'll feed that back. 

 

Ian's donation includes the collection he had from Jack Braithwaite, which is the group I've been fishing in today. These have catalogue numbers 90950 - 93867. So you can rather tediuosly look for them one by one. Alternatively, since virtually all of them are of engines, if you search by class number you will get loads, but also photos from other collections - e.g. 1738 and "photographs" turns up 57 photos of 1738 Class 4-4-0s, of which 39 are "Donor: Ian Howard".

 

I am one of the (s)elect MRS Trustees to have been entrusted with a back-up of the Study Centre's digital archive, which is how it comes about that I can browse at will!

[41516]

 

56 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

So you can rather tediuosly look for them one by one.

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Turton has a couple of photos showing a later livery style but one, taken at Sileby c. 1920, showing a similar style to this Bournemouth wagon, although a more modern wagon, perhaps of 1890s vintage. From this it's clear that the lettering on the top plank reads EMPTY TO.

 

 

Embedded link to MRSC 93726

Edited 5 hours ago by 41516

[Mol_PMB]

A complex place, Pinxton! But I guess the same could be said of many collieries around 1900.

Midland line from SW to NE, GNR approaches from the S. Stream and canal between them, lots of branches and sidings.

Some interesting features such as Langton 'Junction' which isn't!

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/swipe/#zoom=16.7&lat=53.0836&lon=-1.3279&layers=168&right=ESRIWorld

 

The GNR and the Midland were remarkably entangled in this part of the East Midlands, both trying to serve every colliery and industry.

[Mol_PMB]

A little to the south of Pinxton, I think this is the area where the Read & Son wagons were photographed:

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/swipe/#zoom=17.2&lat=53.0659&lon=-1.3405&layers=168&right=ESRIWorld

[Compound2632]

The colliery was next to the canal, contributing to its early development (or vice-versa). Part of the Midland line was on the route of the Mansfield & Pinxton Tramway of 1819. A great deal was made of the Midland incorporating the Leicester & Swannington Railway of 1832, giving it a claim to antiquity almost as good as the LNWR's, but I wonder what other company could claim to be in part the successor to a line opened before 1820 - The North Eastern, perhaps. 

 

The Pinxton collieries contributed to the wealth of Lord Melbourne, the first Victorian prime minister, and hence, indirectly, to an Australian state and its capital.

Edited 4 hours ago by Compound2632

[Mol_PMB]

I posted this in a different thread because the photos are 1934, but I'll link it here as I suspect it will be of interest to the D299 thread parishioners:

 

[Mol_PMB]

Although Britainfromabove is a great resource, the development of aviation and aerial photography was such that there aren't so many images from the pre-grouping era.

There are around 3000 images from the years 1919 to 1922, the majority from 1920. Only a small proportion feature railways, and the image quality is variable.

I found it helpful to search for the year and view on a map, and then zoom in on areas of interest and see which photos were near railways. Here's an example link to the 1920 images map:

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/map?keywords=1920&country=global&year=all&page=4&view=map#0,262466.52493474324,609599.6708161779

 

Focusing on my local area in the north-west, there are some nice examples such as this view over the Wigan stations (one of several shots from different angles):

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW005028

 

 

The goods yard at Warrington BQ:

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW005005

 

Straying to the Midlands and the year 1921, I must have walked to work along the winding Litchurch Lane hundreds of times. Again one of several images from different angles. Home of the D299:

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW005805

 

Much further south, a view of Ramsgate Harbour with a proportion of Midland wagons in the background that would no doubt please @Compound2632

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/EPW000093

 

Happy searching!

[Mol_PMB]

I think you'll find that those wagons are the wrong shade of grey...

 

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW005804

 

And why can't the different model manufacturers use the same colour for their carriage rooves?

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW005805

 

 

[corneliuslundie]

The Hay Railway (tramroad) opened fully in 1816 and part was used by the Hereford, Hay & Brecon Railway, including Talyllyn tunnel. That closed half a century ago.

Not sure about parts of the Brecon Mountain Tramway which were later used by the Neath & Brecon Railway as I don't have to hand the opening dates of the various sections - though I am sure they are in the book by Stephen Hughes..

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

58 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

I think you'll find that those wagons are the wrong shade of grey...

 

Yes, evidently!

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 90950, Ian Howard collection.]

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

The Hay Railway (tramroad) opened fully in 1816 and part was used by the Hereford, Hay & Brecon Railway, including Talyllyn tunnel.

 

All you're doing there is pushing the Midland's antecedents back another three years! 

[Compound2632]

Sometimes one can date a photo by the PO wagons rather than the PO wagons from other details in the photo. 

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 91180, Ian Howard collection.]

 

Catalogue caption: "Bedford, around 1900..."

 

Turning to Turton's Fifth Collection, pp. 18-20, article on Barnsley Main, we read that wagons Nos. 186 - 250 were acquired from Stevens in April/May 1902. No. 221 and its companion look pretty fresh - note the still-whitish tyres. The lead engine has the smokebox door lamp iron, so this is before early 1903. Therefore I think we can say "Summer 1902" with some confidence.

[Compound2632]

"I like modelling pre-grouping wagons because they're easy to paint - no fiddling around with every plank a different shade of grey or bare wood like those early 1950s ex-PO wagons."

 

 

[Crop from high-res scan of MRSC 91834, DY2798, Washwood Heath, March 1905.]

 

Is there evidence there of the vertical strap between the end pillars having been removed, leaving its impression on the second and third planks up?