More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Andy Vincent]

33 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Is there a table relating spring length (between supports), wire gauge, material, and weight per axle?

Time to summon @Miss Prism I suspect . . . . 

[Miss Prism]

http://www.clag.org.uk/beam-annex2.html

[billbedford]

14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The weight per axle must matter when setting up sprung vehicles - indeed you mentioned this on learning that I was replacing resin printed floors with lead, to get to 25 g per axle. Is there a table relating spring length (between supports), wire gauge, material, and weight per axle?

 

Well, obviously, it's best to keep the weight on each wheel as equal as possible, and it's a good idea to have the verticle centre of gravity close to the buffer/coupling centre height. Also, there is probably a minimum practical weight that may well be related to driver skills.

 

In general, I believe there is no optimal weight for model wagons. The reasoning is the design of the running gear. We use point-point axles running in conical bearings which are supported by vertical bearing carriers. The axles produce an axial load on the bearing carriers which is resisted by the carriers rubbing against the backs of the w-irons. Effectively the springs are friction-damped, the heavier the wagon the more friction there is and the slower the reaction of the spring. This is analogous to leaf springs on full-sized vehicles where the springs are effective over a wide range of loads. 

 

 

[sir douglas]

found a rare sight, a photo of a E&WYUR wagon, this one at Askern in a book about yorkshire collieries, in Wakefield library

 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, sir douglas said:

found a rare sight, a photo of a E&WYUR wagon, this one at Askern in a book about yorkshire collieries, in Wakefield library

 

And these are ones owned rather than hired by the E&WYUR - upright rather than slanting initials. Good spot!

[jamie92208]

11 hours ago, sir douglas said:

found a rare sight, a photo of a E&WYUR wagon, this one at Askern in a book about yorkshire collieries, in Wakefield library

 

A very interesting photo.  It looks as if the pit is still under construction so they could well have been carrying bricks from Armitages Brickworks at Thorpe for use in the building work.  Askern was quite a late pit as the coalfield extended east. 

 

Jamie

[Mol_PMB]

Prompted by the posts above I had a quick search and found this colourised view on ebay which has slightly better contrast around the wagons.

In the version in the book it looked like two of them were taller, but it's actually a feature on the building behind.

 

Note also that there are more of them in the right background.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/363841866594

[Penlan]

Looks like I shall have to change my livery 🥴

[Mol_PMB]

5 minutes ago, Penlan said:

Looks like I shall have to change my livery 🥴

I suspect your choice of grey is more accurate than the colourisation. 
But the placement of the number may be an issue? 
There’s a model in the NRM collection with the same livery as yours. 

[sir douglas]

the only prototype photo i knew of was the HMRS one, that has the number on the left. it might just be that different batches had different number positions

[Compound2632]

32 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

But the placement of the number may be an issue? 

 

Date dependent. It seems to me that there was a move to placing the number at the LH end, possibly around the Great War or maybe a bit earlier. Possibly written into the RCH specification at some point? When the MR C&W Committee note the instruction to start painting open wagon numbers on the body, in Feb 1917, they said at the RH end; this was amended the following month to the LH end. 

 

36 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

There’s a model in the NRM collection with the same livery as yours. 

 

A J.P. Richards model:

 

 

[Embedded link to Science Museum Group website.]

[Andy Vincent]

On 13/07/2024 at 23:46, Wagon nut said:

LNWR round bottomed oil axleboxes - as in the attached? Pics show the D&S casting for the box with axleguard and spring that came with Danny's medium cattle wagon and early box van kit

 

I cant believe that this was four pages back! A bit delayed but finally got time to print my candidate!

 

[moore43grm]

One I made earlier

[Wagon nut]

4 hours ago, Andy Vincent said:

 

I cant believe that this was four pages back! A bit delayed but finally got time to print my candidate!

 

Oh wow! Thank you Andy - they look superb. 

[RedTrain]

63,009 more D299s to go... make that 63,008 now.

 

 

This one I've just finished in the nick of time for it to join the rest of my wagons at a show later today. It's actually the third Slaters D299 I've built, the second one is still attached to its painting handle resplendent in primer and a failed coat of Vallejo grey that clogged my airbrush, awaiting its proper time...

 

I've made a few alterations to this one, most following @Compound2632's helpful advice but one that I felt particularly compelled to try of my own volition. The "bangplate" on the braked side door was the first one, although the 3D rivet transfers I used on it seem to have registered more as vague lumps than rivets in the end. They're there, though. The wagon was assembled with the correct solebar/headstock alignment, and looks much better for it. Here it is compared with the previous:

 

 

Strange the difference 0.7mm of ride height makes...

 

 

Perhaps not as structural but just as substantial in terms of appearance, however, is my own attempt at scratchbuilding a better looking floor.

 

 

While it's not plank-for-plank accurate (are there such things as plankcounters? Surely in this hobby... 😛), it does very much to improve the rather gaunt flat floor of the kit. Of course, as it is 0.5mm grooved styrene sheet overlaid on top of the floor, the effect compounded with the raised interior height by getting the solebar alignment correct has rendered the bottom side plank almost invisible. A compromise I was willing to make for the sake of seeing how it'd look... one less plank on the sides bothers me a whole lot less than no planks at all on the floor (and saves me having to scribe each one myself as well).

 

I believe this photo speaks for itself...

 

 

...at least, to someone of my viewpoint. The result satisfies my personal tastes and that's all I set out to do; others have surely built better and more accurate D299s than I can ever claim!

 

No. 5044 likely will eventually be (lightly) weathered and drybrushed for highlights akin to the rest of my opens, but for the moment I plan to leave her exterior pristine as a point of comparison with No. 20639. Plus it's nice to actually be able to read the great big "M R" without what must be a decade or more of grime in the way...

[magmouse]

Looking good! The new floor is a definite improvement, despite the limitations of the kit.

 

2 hours ago, RedTrain said:

are there such things as plankcounters? Surely in this hobby... 😛

 

Yup - found myself doing it just yesterday, working out the positioning of the end numbers on a GWR covered goods wagon.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

Not many rivets to count, in a wooden wagon.

[Andy Vincent]

11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Not many rivets to count, in a wooden wagon

 

You say that, but drawings for early LNWR wagons (D1, D2 etc) appear to be marked as having 3/8th rivets on the corner plates in lieu of bolts. I have yet to see anything which makes really clear just what these were. External views seem to show a gently rounded head but I haven't seen any internal views from the period and it seems unlikely that these were conventional hot formed rivets given that they secured wood to corner plate. Later lots had bolts instead.

Edited July 27 by Andy Vincent
Added cropped image

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

You say that, but drawings for early LNWR wagons (D1, D2 etc) appear to be marked as having 3/8th rivets on the corner plates in lieu of bolts. 

 

Yes, indeed, which is why I was careful to say 'not many' rather than 'no' - knowing full well that we're all not only rivet counters and plank counters here, but also nit counters! (We used to have a fine-toothed comb for that.)

[Asterix2012]

18 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

 

You say that, but drawings for early LNWR wagons (D1, D2 etc) appear to be marked as having 3/8th rivets on the corner plates in lieu of bolts. I have yet to see anything which makes really clear just what these were. External views seem to show a gently rounded head but I haven't seen any internal views from the period and it seems unlikely that these were conventional hot formed rivets given that they secured wood to corner plate. Later lots had bolts instead.

Could they be coach bolts rather than rivets?

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Asterix2012 said:

Could they be coach bolts rather than rivets?

 

They are rivets. See text of LNWR Wagons Vol. 1.

[corneliuslundie]

So don't try counting the rivets for a gunpowder van. I have just been redrawing a Cambrian one and I can tell you there are plenty.

In 4 mm modelling terms, there is not a lot of difference between a bolt head and a rivet head - at least in my models where they are usually simply small bits of plastic strip.

Jonathan

[57xx]

On 24/07/2024 at 22:35, billbedford said:

 

Yep, I'm sure that the 50gm weight dates back to when most wagons were white metal and just no one has really questioned it since. I think most RTR wagons are 30-40 gm. 

 

I've seen many people referencing NMRA "standards" when talking about the 50gm weight. I've not looked in to it in detail to know if that is correct, I personally just use around 30gm as that is what I measured several RTR wagons at.

[billbedford]

The NMRA weight "standards" list car weights plus an addition for every inch of the car length. The thinking behind them was to avoid long trains of RTR cars straight lining while attempting to run around train-set curves. 

I don't think this is a failure mode often found in British models. 

 

[Compound2632]

Another E&WYUR wagon, No. 129 with steel frames and Ellis axleboxes:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of HMRS AAJ007.]