More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[billbedford]

I can't help feeling that the GSWR is a modelling Terra Incognito, in that since we know so little about their wagons, anything we don't recognise can be safely ascribed to the company. 

[jamie92208]

Could it be that other small company near Whitehaven, I can't remember the proper name of but it hat Cleator and Workington or something similar.  I believe that it was closely involved with the LNWR.

 

Jamie

[jamie92208]

On 16/07/2024 at 09:33, Chas Levin said:

 

Morning Jamie, not sure whether you wanted comments here or on that POW thread but may I add my appreciation for your work here. As another reader commented, this was long overdue!

Thanks for that. However as the other thread now has a life of it's own it would probably be best to put comments on there. 

 

Jamie

[WFPettigrew]

35 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Cleator and Workington

 

Hi Jamie

 

Yes, the Cleator and Workington Junction, which was an independent line up to the Grouping.  They hired many of their wagons from the Furness, only really having their own fleet of mineral wagons, as befits a line built to tap the local iron ore, coal and limestone and get it to the ironmasters without them paying what had been seen as the high rates charged by the FR and the LNWR.

 

It certainly isn't an FR cattle wagon - they had X outside framing on the side panels - and like the FR the CWJ had a "large letter" wagon livery line (so like the MR or later LNWR) rather than small letters like seen here.

 

Best wishes

 

Neil 

[WFPettigrew]

19 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I can't quite make out the number of the D1 - 4?37 ?

 

4537 I think... 

 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

 Duplicate post 

 

You know there's a 'hide' option. Follow the three dots.

[sir douglas]

i recently got this o gauge whitemetal wagon, does anybody know the kit or prototype, while it is mostly generic, it has extra little straps around the top of the corners which i dont recognise

[Compound2632]

36 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

i recently got this o gauge whitemetal wagon, does anybody know the kit or prototype, while it is mostly generic, it has extra little straps around the top of the corners which i dont recognise

 

 

I'd say those corner straps are pretty generic - the whole thing is generically a pre-1887 PO wagon. Your best bet might be to finish it in Midland livery, since it appears the Midland didn't keep good records of the PO wagons it purchased. One was responsible for an accident on the Eastern & Midlands Railway in 1884: "The Midland truck which left the rails is one which was bought by the Company from some trader, and no record exists of the date when it was built."

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BoT_Martham1884.pdf

 

 

[CKPR]

22 hours ago, Wagon nut said:

Curious cattle wagon indeed. Side profile and square based buffers look very LNW. Square ended buffer beam and 4 end stanchions not so..hint of NB with that end view there too - but then again clearly not. Fairly non descript grease boxes? Lettering does look like GSW - sources of info on GSW wagons seems really lacking however. I'm sure the Model wagon Company did a kit for a GSW cattle wagon of Drummond era but it didn't look like this, but more like a more typical Scottish / CR / HR type. Hmm! 

OK, here's a long shot - I agree with @WFPettigrew that the cattle wagon looks very like an M&C design [I'm away on holiday so can't supply either the relevant works drawing of an M&C medium cattle wagon or my model made from it] AND the photograph looks like it might be reversed. If you were to reverse the lettering, then it appears to read 'M & C', which might confirm it. Again, I'm looking at this on my phone with a patchy signal but if someone could reverse the image, this might help us to identify it.

Edited July 17 by CKPR

[CKPR]

8 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Could it be that other small company near Whitehaven, I can't remember the proper name of but it hat Cleator and Workington or something similar.  I believe that it was closely involved with the LNWR.

 

Jamie

The C&WJR only owned mineral wagons and possibly some ex-FR or ex-LNWR  brake vans as all other goods traffic was worked by the FR.

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, CKPR said:

AND the photograph looks like it is reversed. 

 

The photo is not reversed. One can read the engine number, 3131, CAMDEN No. 5 on the rail of the signalbox, and the number on the end of the D1. Plus the orientation of the signals.

 

7 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

like the FR the CWJ had a "large letter" wagon livery line (so like the MR or later LNWR) rather than small letters like seen here.

 

From what date? The Midland invented 'large letter' livery in the 1880s but it was generally slow to catch on - generally replacing 'small letter' livery in the early years of the 20th century: GNR 1898, GWR 1904, LNWR 1908, NER 1911. I think the GSWR was an early adopter, but remember this photo is 1890s.

[WFPettigrew]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

From what date?

Sometime (as yet not confirmed) mid 1890s for the FR.  Sorry I don't know for the CWJR. 

[WFPettigrew]

29 minutes ago, CKPR said:

relevant works drawing of an M&C medium cattle wagon

 

This was the other HMRS link I didn't post last night, but seeing as you've mentioned it....!

 

 

 

And I have been working on a M&C medium cattle wagon too... 

 

 

In need of a clean up then it'll get some paint on it. 

 

It's a 3D print produced by Jim Rowbottom (of the Newcastle MRS Port Solway P4 layout). 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

Edited July 17 by WFPettigrew
Adding second photo

[WFPettigrew]

Further re CWJ wagon livery, I remembered this just-post-Grouping photo, from the Sankey Collection at Barrow Archives (embedded image):

 

 

 

A glorious range of hoppers in Barrow Docks - and we can get away with this on this thread given the beast front centre!  But also of note one of the FR steel bodied ore hoppers, an FR hopper with "semi dumb" buffers (that peculiarity of the 1870s where there was a sprung buffer, but the buffer guide was an extension to the solebar), and some LNWR examples too. 

 

 

 

[mikeallerton]

HMRS drawing 19951 of a GER cattle wagon seems to fit the bill, as posted on the HMRS EAG by Simon Turner

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

we can get away with this on this thread given the beast front centre! 

 

Yes indeedy, a rare sighting of a D343 8-ton hopper wagon. Just a shame it's too low down in the picture for us to see its number!

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, mikeallerton said:

HMRS drawing 19951 of a GER cattle wagon seems to fit the bill, as posted on the HMRS EAG by Simon Turner

 

Yes, Simon has it, I agree. I'm inclined to say, 'how dull' - with apologies to Great Eastern enthusiasts! Still, we've had some fun along the way.

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of HMRS drawing 19951.]

Edited July 17 by Compound2632

[corneliuslundie]

I was beaten to it with the drawing

 

Jonathan

 

Edited July 17 by corneliuslundie

[Compound2632]

Adrian Marks has commented further that this design of GER cattle wagon originated in 1872, during S.W. Johnson's Superintendency, being superseded by the X-framed version in the late 1870s. None of this type appear in the 1901 Diagram Book, the earliest design there being one of 1881, although Adrian thinks some did remain in traffic into the new century. But in any case, it fits with an 1890s date for the photo.

[ian@stenochs]

On 16/07/2024 at 16:39, Compound2632 said:

Another of Mike Musson's posts to the L&NWR Society Facebook group:

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/109619289726001

 

On the basis of the number the Special Tank is carrying, and the date of replacement of the signal box, this is between 1892 and 1901.

 

At first glance, I assumed the cattle wagon was a LNWR D21 medium one, but the four end pillars are all wrong. No diamonds, but some lettering on the second plank up, company initials of the left and number on the right. Not GER I think; their cattle wagons had X framing rather than a single diagonal, and not this style of end framing. Could it be GSW? Scotch beef on the hoof? The covered goods wagon looks like it might be Salt Union - when did that firm adopt the circular logo around the wagon number on the doors? 

 

I can't quite make out the number of the D1 - 4?37 ?

I am coming to this a bit late but that is not a G&SWR cattle van.  The most common is this one.  
 

There were variations of the number and width of slats. I have seen photos of 6 & 7 slat versions, but they were always gaps between them.  The ownership lettering was painted G & S W on one slat and also on a cast plate which also carried the number.   
 

I have never seen any evidence that the buffer stocks were ever anything other than round with 4 fixing bolts.  The standard axleboxes were very plain rectangular in shape, the ones on the mystery van look to have round bottoms a bit like the NB used.

 

Just for information the Model Wagon Co produced a 4 mm kit for the above van and the G&SWRA did one in 7 mm.   Additionally MWC did a 7 mm version of the later Drummond van.  
 

Ian.
 

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, ian@stenochs said:

I am coming to this a bit late but that is not a G&SWR cattle van.  

 

Thanks. Another one for the cattle wagon recognition chart!

[Compound2632]

Speaking, as we were, of cattle wagons, here's the Tait & Carlton locking device for cattle wagons, designed to prevent unscrupulous cattle dealers from moving the movable partition once the wagon doors are shut:

 

 

[Derby Cattle Docks, Nov 1909. Compressed crop of scan of DY9165, MRSC 88-2015-0211]

 

In this case, it is redundant, since the wagon, No. 17890, has been hired out as 'large'. 

 

There are a couple of drawings for this in the C&W Drawing Register, Drg. 2027 of 18 May 1904, and Drg. 2329 of 4 May 1905. Only the latter is in the Midland Railway Study Centre collection, 88-D2154; it shows exactly the device in the photo.

 

The minutes of the Traffic and Carriage & Wagon Committees record decisions in May 1905 to fit fasteners to 300 cattle wagons and in June 1906 to fit 200 more - in total, 30% of the cattle wagon fleet - but without mentioning the type of fastener by name. Whether these wagons were preferentially used in districts notorious for devious dealers, or which such districts might be, I've no idea. 

 

Roll over Messrs. Wright & Marillier!

[SteamAle]

MCR Horse box & Cattle Wagon HRMSs.pdf

[Mikkel]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Roll over Messrs. Wright & Marillier!

 

It's not about quantity, it's about who got there first :-)

 

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=GB&NR=190221140A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19030716&DB=&locale=en_EP

 

[65179]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Speaking, as we were, of cattle wagons, here's the Tait & Carlton locking device for cattle wagons, designed to prevent unscrupulous cattle dealers from moving the movable partition once the wagon doors are shut:

 

 

[Derby Cattle Docks, Nov 1909. Compressed crop of scan of DY9165, MRSC 88-2015-0211]

 

In this case, it is redundant, since the wagon, No. 17890, has been hired out as 'large'. 

 

There are a couple of drawings for this in the C&W Drawing Register, Drg. 2027 of 18 May 1904, and Drg. 2329 of 4 May 1905. Only the latter is in the Midland Railway Study Centre collection, 88-D2154; it shows exactly the device in the photo.

 

The minutes of the Traffic and Carriage & Wagon Committees record decisions in May 1905 to fit fasteners to 300 cattle wagons and in June 1906 to fit 200 more - in total, 30% of the cattle wagon fleet - but without mentioning the type of fastener by name. Whether these wagons were preferentially used in districts notorious for devious dealers, or which such districts might be, I've no idea. 

 

Roll over Messrs. Wright & Marillier!

 

I'm probably being dense, but why does it matter? If a merchant asks for a medium cattle wagon and a large is the only thing available, why does the railway company need to go to the expense of fitting a lock that prevents a small number of people moving a partition behind which was empty space anyway? 

 

Simon