More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, sir douglas said:

Ince wagon 1919, WD 12 ton, im guessing that it must have been built for europe based on the metric tare weight

 

Yes, I think the ladies are preventing us from seeing that it has oil rather than grease axleboxes, thereby making it acceptable to the C.F. du Nord.

[wagonman]

23 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, I think the ladies are preventing us from seeing that it has oil rather than grease axleboxes, thereby making it acceptable to the C.F. du Nord.

 

And also the screw coupling with side chains. Very Gallic.

[Chas Levin]

On 07/07/2024 at 23:45, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, I think the ladies are preventing us from seeing that it has oil rather than grease axleboxes...

 

I'm sure we've all felt at times that the ladies have impeded a fuller engagement with railway matters, but they make up for it in other ways. All hail, The Ladies!

[jamie92208]

A random thought has gone through what passes for a brain recently.  Much mention has been made in these pages about Private Owner wagon registers and their whereabouts.  Stephen and I are very familiar with the Midland registers held at Kew and mention has been made of some being at the NRM.  I did a bit of googling yesterday and very quickly found that there are a lot of registers at the NRM,,including the later LMS volumes, some LNER volumes and those for several LNER constituents.  I thought that some sort of simple spreadsheet listing  the companies and what registers exist and where, would be a very useful research tool. 

 

From my personal experience there is no such list, easily accessible and some researchers gaurd their knowledge very closely. 

 

I have little knowledge of many things, including Great Western and Southern PO matters. 

 

I am quite happy to make a start on such a spreadsheet and post it here. If anyone is happy to add to it then a PM to me would get it updated. 

 

Some notes about what is available online as well as physical location could be very useful. 

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated and it would probable best to start a separate thread.  I have mentioned it first on here because of how much PO matters have been mentioned. 

 

Jamie

 

Edited July 13 by jamie92208

[Compound2632]

I was told by Simon Turner that PO registers for the Grouping companies and most of the LNER constituents are at the NRM, for the MR and LYR at TNA, as we know, and those of the GWR are in private hands or otherwise dispersed. The registers of the LNWR, GNR, and the southern lines do not appear to have survived - the first two are a major loss as I should think they probably accounted for something like a quarter to a third of all pre-grouping PO registrations.

 

The NBR registers are at the Scottish Record Office; no info on CR and G&SWR registers.

 

The Irish companies participated in the RCH - I've no idea whether they adopted the RCH PO wagon specification and registration system, there not being that many PO wagons in Ireland - next to no collieries. They weren't represented in the discussions on PO wagons but were at the 1902 meetings on eitherside brakes - the GS&WR being represented by a Mr Maunsell.

[Wagon nut]

On 03/04/2024 at 10:15, 41516 said:

Hopefully they will come back with the ABS 4mm range - Formerly F.734 LNW 10T Grease Axleguard x 8. I don't know of any others currently out there.

With apologies for harking back to a much earlier post (not been doing enough modelling for months and trying to catch up), does anyone know of a source for LNWR round bottomed oil axleboxes - as in the attached? Pics show the D&S casting for the box with axleguard and spring that came with Danny's medium cattle wagon and early box van kit - and also those integral in Bill Bedford's D84 wagon. I've chatted to David Geen and London Road Models (who never did these boxes with their kits) Danny Pinnock, who doesn't think he has any lurking, and Chris Simpson of Modelstock, who should have the D&S moulds - as they and the two kits I mentioned were passed to Adrian Swain - but at the moment he cant find them..... (Adrian had them listed as F.735 in his last catalogue - along with square and angled front options too, although I've no idea if they were ever actually available under the ABS label) These axleboxes seem to have been pretty much the most common type just before the grouping and into the thirties and I need a good few to update a few kits. Rapido's eagerly awaited D88 box van has them as an option, too. Is anyone with connections to the LNWR society able to shed any light on another source? I just know that if I start making a mould from the ones I have, a new source may miraculously appear. Help much appreciated. Thanks Chris

[41516]

8 hours ago, Wagon nut said:

I just know that if I start making a mould from the ones I have, a new source may miraculously appear.

 

The modeller's curse!  I'm afraid one modeller must make the sacrifice for the benefit of all...

[Compound2632]

Not much modelling lately, I'm afraid. Partly down to excess of tennis, partly to a spot of near vision trouble, now diagnosed and resolvable. So I've been amusing myself playing the numbers game with S&DJR goods wagon stock - a rabbit-hole I have returned to largely due to that cattle wagon I'm building.

[jamie92208]

As threatened a few days ago I've made a start on a spreadsheet about PO wagon registers.   My fist attempts are now attached to a new topic titled

Private owner wagon records.

The link has now appeared. 

 

Any comments would be appreciated.

 

Jamie

 

 

 

Edited July 14 by jamie92208

[Compound2632]

And I've now gone down with some variety of croak and sniff so feeling a bit sorry for myself. 

 

To cheer myself and anyone else up, a couple of photos embedded from the L&NWR Society's Facebook group, illustrating two extremes of the Premier Line's operations. 

 

First up, the up Irish Mail running into Crewe behind a Dreadnought, sometime between 1884 and 1895 - a range that can probably be refined by reference to the coaching stock and signalling:

 

 

The Irish Mail, like the 2pm Corridor, was a train that affirmed the LNWR's status as the national line in the 1890s - nothing to touch it, not even the Midland Scotch Express.

 

LNWRS Reference: CARD0111; posted by Mike Musson:

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=8066916370032303&set=gm.1425617604792823&idorvanity=109619289726001

 

At the other extreme, dumb buffered wagons of local collieries and agents at Dunvant, c. 1905:

 

 

Posted by Stephen Evans:

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10160489911657979&set=pcb.1660095874560945

 

Dunvant, I gather, is somewhere in Glamorganshire. (Should I say was? I suppose the place exists, even if the county doesn't. I'd never heard of it before - Dunvant, that is, not Glam. I gather it is now a suburb of Swansea.) 

[corneliuslundie]

From Tony Cooke's mammoth work on South Wales collieries

Dunvant Slant

Worked between 1894 and 1908

Penland, Dunvant

Worked 1886-1916

New Dunvant

1913-1916 and a bit later but unclear.

Yes, now on the edge of Swansea. Was on the LNWR line from Craven Arms to Swansea Victoria.

Jonathan

[Andy Vincent]

On 13/07/2024 at 23:46, Wagon nut said:

does anyone know of a source for LNWR round bottomed oil axleboxes

 

On 13/07/2024 at 23:46, Wagon nut said:

I just know that if I start making a mould from the ones I have, a new source may miraculously appear.

 

OK, I will take the bait and draw them tonight - I was wondering what to do now that the football has finished ;-). I should be finishing the CAD for some other wagons really but there is something vaguely satisfying about drawing axleboxes and I have a 'good enough' drawing to work from.

 

On a technical note, and to save me searching, how many leaves should there be in the spring / which wagon diagram are you wanting them for? Alternatively, do you just need the axlebox without the spring? (You can have both versions!)

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

First up, the up Irish Mail running into Crewe behind a Dreadnought, sometime between 1884 and 1895 - a range that can probably be refined by reference to the coaching stock and signalling

 

I've now had a look in P.A. Millard and I. Tattersall, L&NWR Non-Corridor Carriages (L&NWR Society, 2006). The sixth carriage, after the TPO, is one of a pair of four-compartment first class carriages with a lavatory to every compartment and a centre luggage compartment built in the half-year ending Nov 1888 for Irish Mail service, diagram D104. The very height of luxury for the likes of Mr Parnell. So that narrows the date range down to 1889-1895.

[Chas Levin]

On 14/07/2024 at 14:43, jamie92208 said:

As threatened a few days ago I've made a start on a spreadsheet about PO wagon registers.   My fist attempts are now attached to a new topic titled

Private owner wagon records.

The link has now appeared. 

 

Any comments would be appreciated.

 

Jamie

 

Morning Jamie, not sure whether you wanted comments here or on that POW thread but may I add my appreciation for your work here. As another reader commented, this was long overdue!

[Wagon nut]

23 hours ago, Andy Vincent said:

 

 

OK, I will take the bait and draw them tonight - I was wondering what to do now that the football has finished ;-). I should be finishing the CAD for some other wagons really but there is something vaguely satisfying about drawing axleboxes and I have a 'good enough' drawing to work from.

 

On a technical note, and to save me searching, how many leaves should there be in the spring / which wagon diagram are you wanting them for? Alternatively, do you just need the axlebox without the spring? (You can have both versions!)

Andy - you star!  Havent got the books in front of me right now but 'with springs' suits me generally. I will see what the most common springs were.  Thank you!

Chris

[Compound2632]

Another of Mike Musson's posts to the L&NWR Society Facebook group:

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/109619289726001

 

On the basis of the number the Special Tank is carrying, and the date of replacement of the signal box, this is between 1892 and 1901.

 

At first glance, I assumed the cattle wagon was a LNWR D21 medium one, but the four end pillars are all wrong. No diamonds, but some lettering on the second plank up, company initials of the left and number on the right. Not GER I think; their cattle wagons had X framing rather than a single diagonal, and not this style of end framing. Could it be GSW? Scotch beef on the hoof? The covered goods wagon looks like it might be Salt Union - when did that firm adopt the circular logo around the wagon number on the doors? 

 

I can't quite make out the number of the D1 - 4?37 ?

[billbedford]

The GNR used four end stanchions on their early cattle wagons, but the photos in Tatlow all show a single-piece door. 

Edited July 16 by billbedford

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, billbedford said:

The GNR used four end stanchions on their early cattle wagons, but the photos in Tatkow all shoe a single piece door. 

 

I couldn't convince myself the middle letter is an N - it seems to have three horizontal elements, which is why having rejected E I thought of trying S.

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Could it be GSW?

 

I cannot help on GSW matters, but the cattle wagon is a dead ringer for the Maryport and Carlisle medium and large ones as far as the side framing and door styles go - but they also had two not four end pillars, at least, in the one photo and one works drawing I have seen.

 

Here's the photo:

 

 

Embedded image from HMRS website of M&C large cattle wagon No 720.

 

It is worth noting that there was a pretty close relationship between Maryport and the GSW - with an interchange of CMEs and loco ideas, and their Carlisle sheds were alongside each other. Paging @CKPR who can do much better than me about Smellie and his yoyo between Scotland and Maryport, etc?

 

So whilst this proves nothing, it does add a small extra nudge towards the Sou-Western?

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

 

[Andy Vincent]

6 hours ago, Wagon nut said:

I will see what the most common springs were

I only have one of the three volumes to hand (as in within reach whilst watching another dismal Kent cricket performance on TV, rather than going up to my office!) and that has D84 with the drawing marked as 8 x 4" x 0.5" with a camber of 5 15/16". Looking at a selection of D84 photos would seem to bear this out. I can easily do other versions after looking further - since No 18 and No 20 boxes differ only in bits that cant be seen, it may well be that versions with other spring(s) make sense.

[Wagon nut]

2 hours ago, Andy Vincent said:

I only have one of the three volumes to hand (as in within reach whilst watching another dismal Kent cricket performance on TV, rather than going up to my office!) and that has D84 with the drawing marked as 8 x 4" x 0.5" with a camber of 5 15/16". Looking at a selection of D84 photos would seem to bear this out. I can easily do other versions after looking further - since No 18 and No 20 boxes differ only in bits that cant be seen, it may well be that versions with other spring(s) make sense.

Thanks again Andy - I've just been looking at Vol 1 too and it seems that 8 leaf springs were the most common on the opens, D103 1 planks and say the Diag 14 Deal wagon (although 7 leaves usually appear visible for some reason -  the first one is so short you can hardly really see it..) The D88 drawing in Vol 2 says the same 8 x 4 x 0.5 and photos seem to bear this out. Cattle wagons seem to be similar too. So some consistency there. Cant imagine the miniscule differences between type 18 and 20 boxes would bother any sane soul!

[Wagon nut]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Another of Mike Musson's posts to the L&NWR Society Facebook group:

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/109619289726001

 

On the basis of the number the Special Tank is carrying, and the date of replacement of the signal box, this is between 1892 and 1901.

 

At first glance, I assumed the cattle wagon was a LNWR D21 medium one, but the four end pillars are all wrong. No diamonds, but some lettering on the second plank up, company initials of the left and number on the right. Not GER I think; their cattle wagons had X framing rather than a single diagonal, and not this style of end framing. Could it be GSW? Scotch beef on the hoof? The covered goods wagon looks like it might be Salt Union - when did that firm adopt the circular logo around the wagon number on the doors? 

 

I can't quite make out the number of the D1 - 4?37 ?

Curious cattle wagon indeed. Side profile and square based buffers look very LNW. Square ended buffer beam and 4 end stanchions not so..hint of NB with that end view there too - but then again clearly not. Fairly non descript grease boxes? Lettering does look like GSW - sources of info on GSW wagons seems really lacking however. I'm sure the Model wagon Company did a kit for a GSW cattle wagon of Drummond era but it didn't look like this, but more like a more typical Scottish / CR / HR type. Hmm! 

[Dave John]

The braced centre doors the same heaight as the side panels suggest it isn't CR. 

[billbedford]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I couldn't convince myself the middle letter is an N - it seems to have three horizontal elements, which is why having rejected E I thought of trying S.

 

SER? They had some similar cattle wagons, However, the photos show 5 stanchions on the end. 

[Chas Levin]

I'd vote for GSW too but lettering like this can distort in very odd ways at this sort of resolution and scale...