More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Mol_PMB]

The place to find a view down inside a loaded standard gauge wagon would be at Minffordd where several photos were taken from an elevated viewpoint over the Cambrian line.

Unfortunately I have yet to locate a view with a loaded wagon in shot!

 

Possibly the low-sided wagon is being loaded here?

A better view inside the SG wagons on page 4 here, but they're still empty!

https://www.welshhighlandheritage.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/WHH-No-49.pdf

 

A much later and indistinct view - some of the wagons here might be loaded?

 

 

Edited February 18 by Mol_PMB

[Mikkel]

11 hours ago, magmouse said:

 

In other situations, two or more people can load...

 

 

Embedded image from https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/gallery/look-nostalgic-pictures-show-north-7946482

 

... though hopefully passing more than one slate at a time. (I like the guys on the right who look like they are at a record fair)

 

Nick.

 

A lovely shot but it all looks very posed, I think?

[Mol_PMB]

I had a quick look at my collection of old postcards and can offer some more, possibly useful images. There might even be a D299 or two lurking among these...

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

A lovely shot but it all looks very posed, I think?

 

My suspicious mind is always ready to ask: "why was this photo taken?"

 

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

I had a quick look at my collection of old postcards and can offer some more, possibly useful images. There might even be a D299 or two lurking among these...

 

Yes, second photo, which will be post-Great War, i.e. into the Common User period, what with the lack of diamonds and the L&Y open too.

 

In the last photo, an ex-Midland D663A proudly sporting its LMS identity.

[Mol_PMB]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Yes, second photo, which will be post-Great War, i.e. into the Common User period, what with the lack of diamonds and the L&Y open too.

In the last photo, an ex-Midland D663A proudly sporting its LMS identity.

Thanks, I was reasonably confident of the first two but less sure of the LMS one.

Zooming in on the 4th photo I think these two (third and sixth) are too far away to be sure:

 

 

The nearest 1-plank wagon in the second photo has low enough sides to show how the slates were loaded in an SG wagon.

[figworthy]

10 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

The place to find a view down inside a loaded standard gauge wagon would be at Minffordd where several photos were taken from an elevated viewpoint over the Cambrian line.

Unfortunately I have yet to locate a view with a loaded wagon in shot!

 

Possibly the low-sided wagon is being loaded here?

 

 

Moving away from the wagons for the moment, what is happening with the nearest turnout in the first photo.  Is it combined with check rails and catch/trap points for both diverging routes ?

 

Adrian

[Mol_PMB]

26 minutes ago, figworthy said:

 

Moving away from the wagons for the moment, what is happening with the nearest turnout in the first photo.  Is it combined with check rails and catch/trap points for both diverging routes ?

 

Adrian

Yes, I think so. 

[Chas Levin]

22 hours ago, magmouse said:

 

 

 (I like the guys on the right who look like they are at a record fair)

 

Nick.

 

The bloke at the back in the flat cap is saying "Have you got anything by Black Slate?" (100% reggae fan) and the bloke in the apron at the front is haggling with the one standing in the wagon over a rare bootleg he's just found of - wait for it...

 

 

...The Quarrymen! 🤣

 

(Sorry - time for bed...)

[Mol_PMB]

3 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

 

The bloke at the back in the flat cap is saying "Have you got anything by Black Slate?" (100% reggae fan) and the bloke in the apron at the front is haggling with the one standing in the wagon over a rare bootleg he's just found of - wait for it...

 

 

...The Quarrymen! 🤣

 

(Sorry - time for bed...)

Your penance for the above post is to make a model slate wagon loaded with miniature vinyl, and I expect the album

covers to be identifiable and in good taste ;-)

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Zooming in on the 4th photo I think these two (third and sixth) are too far away to be sure:

 

Yes, could well be. Who was BPP?

 

9 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

The nearest 1-plank wagon in the second photo has low enough sides to show how the slates were loaded in an SG wagon.

 

Yes. 9" sides, slates about 10½"?

 

 

[Aire Head]

On 13/02/2024 at 16:02, corneliuslundie said:

Thanks. I wonder if one reason for the LMS wagon building programme slowing was the general state of the economy, fewer wagons being needed, plus loss of business to road haulage. 

Jonathan

Most certainly. This also coincides with a shift in wagon design too. Steel underframes, longer wheelbases, more vacuum brakes and more complex brake arrangements all appear at this time as well which indicates to me that a decision was made to make newer stock to a much higher standard as less was required aswell as a desire to increase train speed to increase competitiveness.

[garethashenden]

29 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

Most certainly. This also coincides with a shift in wagon design too. Steel underframes, longer wheelbases, more vacuum brakes and more complex brake arrangements all appear at this time as well which indicates to me that a decision was made to make newer stock to a much higher standard as less was required aswell as a desire to increase train speed to increase competitiveness.

In addition to these points, I suspect one railway achieved better utilization of wagons than eight did. 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, garethashenden said:

In addition to these points, I suspect one railway achieved better utilization of wagons than eight did. 

 

Yet there was very little change in the total size of the LMS wagon fleet over its quarter-century of existence - hovering around 300,000 plus or minus a few 1,000. 

 

 

Note that the number of LMS-built wagons did not exceed those of its consituents until the late 1930s and at grouping its stock was still nearly a third of pre-grouping origin - over 25 years old.

[Aire Head]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yet there was very little change in the total size of the LMS wagon fleet over its quarter-century of existence - hovering around 300,000 plus or minus a few 1,000. 

 

 

Note that the number of LMS-built wagons did not exceed those of its consituents until the late 1930s and at grouping its stock was still nearly a third of pre-grouping origin - over 25 years old.

The slowing off in 1930 also coincides with the end of D1666 production. My thoughts on that being the whole purpose of the D1666 program being to try and impose a degree of some standardisation across the wagon fleet while also eliminating older lower tonnage vehicles. I'm sure this isn't a revolutionary thought to be honest 😅. The decline of pregrouping wagons during this time confirms it, it would be interesting to see according to the returns exactly what wagons were disappearing around this early period of the LMS.

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

eliminating older lower tonnage vehicles.

 

I'm sure that's a key part of it. The building of 12 ton opens to D1666 / D1667 completed the programme the Midland had started in 1913 of renewing 8 ton wagons with merchandise wagons of higher capacity (1906 for mineral wagons) and extended it to the lower-capacity wagons of other constituents.

[Asterix2012]

59 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm sure that's a key part of it. The building of 12 ton opens to D1666 / D1667 completed the programme the Midland had started in 1913 of renewing 8 ton wagons with merchandise wagons of higher capacity (1906 for mineral wagons) and extended it to the lower-capacity wagons of other constituents.

The depression after the Wall Street crash may have reduced new construction as well,  with old stock being retained longer.

[magmouse]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Yes. 9" sides, slates about 10½"?

Singles are 10”, doubles 12”, and upwards from there, in the traditional sizing of Welsh slates - see http://www.penmorfa.com/Slate/sizes.htm

 

Nick.

[magmouse]

2 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Singles are 10”, doubles 12”, and upwards from there, in the traditional sizing of Welsh slates - see http://www.penmorfa.com/Slate/sizes.htm

 

Nick.

I think we are looking at 10” wagon sides, with 12” slates. At the far end of the wagon, there is a row of 10” slates, and we just see the cap strip of the wagon end.

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, magmouse said:

I think we are looking at 10” wagon sides

 

I had assumed it was a D1 but looking more closely at the brake lever, I think it's a D103. But both had 9" sides.

[MarcD]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yet there was very little change in the total size of the LMS wagon fleet over its quarter-century of existence - hovering around 300,000 plus or minus a few 1,000. 

 

 

Note that the number of LMS-built wagons did not exceed those of its consituents until the late 1930s and at grouping its stock was still nearly a third of pre-grouping origin - over 25 years old.

I have met a lot of people who would say this was "fake news". I was told by one potential customer that Pre-Grouping wagon didn't last very long after 1923 and any way only GWR wagons got onto the GWR. 

Marc

[Aire Head]

1 minute ago, MarcD said:

I have met a lot of people who would say this was "fake news". I was told by one potential customer that Pre-Grouping wagon didn't last very long after 1923 and any way only GWR wagons got onto the GWR. 

Marc

Have you tried punching them in the face?

 

Usually works 🤷

[MarcD]

It has been very tempting on a number of occasions. It is a issue that is more common in O gauge and 00 modellers than EM, P4 and S7 modellers, I have to say. I used to trade as Furness Railway Wagon Co and if I had been given a pound for everyone who said either "Furness that's a bit to far north!" or "Only GWR wagon went onto the GWR" or the other classic "I model the 1950's your stuff is nice but to old" I would be a very wealthy man.

I should say the sign I had on the stand had a picture of a North and Rose St Austell china clay wagon.

Marc

[Compound2632]

25 minutes ago, MarcD said:

I have met a lot of people who would say this was "fake news". I was told by one potential customer that Pre-Grouping wagon didn't last very long after 1923 and any way only GWR wagons got onto the GWR. 

 

No doubt they also maintained that GW brake vans always travelled veranda trailing. (Or was it veranda leading?)

[corneliuslundie]

Re your Cambrian 2-plank dropside wagon model, the evidence from photos of slate carriage is almost nonexistent, but as one of my WRRC colleagues pointed out you could simply use a dropside wagon and not drop the side. Mind, you can never have too many Cambrian 2-plank wagons.

Jonathan

PS I do have a lot of information on withdrawal of pregrouping wagons by the GWR but far too complicated to post here. Just to say that at least one lasted until 1940 in pregrouping livery.

Jonathan

[magmouse]

3 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Re your Cambrian 2-plank dropside wagon model, the evidence from photos of slate carriage is almost nonexistent

 

That's disappointing - like Stephen, I have a Cambrian 2-plank wagon waiting in the wings for a load of slate. Not sure what else would bring a Cambrian wagon to the Dorset coast in the pre-common user period...

 

Nick.