More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[jwealleans]

Quote

So the one on the left is simply not pulled tautly shut and still shows the wrinkles between the lathes?

 

On the contrary, I think it is more or less closed: the laths, I think would have to be substantial enough to resist rough handling and possibly even things landing on the roof, so something like the 2" x 1" roofing laths used today.    Even with the sheet pulled closed they'd show.   Ifyou look back on my workbench thread I made one using 20 x 10 thou Evergreen strip and tissue paper sprayed black.   You can see what you think, but I liked it.

 

Edit - found it.  NBR van of similar type as discussed as a bonus.

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by jwealleans

[Compound2632]

34 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

The roof doors on those G2 vans are tarpaulin with laths secured to them - the laths slide in the runners and the tarpaulin folds to open in,then when pulled taut again there are ropes on the leading corners to secure it closed.

 

The same construction was used on L&Y vans* but LNWR vans had solid timber sliding hatches. A good while back I made a Geen L&Y D3 van using the technique Jonathan describes.

 

*Also, I think, in Ireland, where vans with this sort of roof hatch of GS&W and GN origin lasted into "modern" times.

 

52 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

It also looks to me as if the last van in the right-hand line is another roof-loading one but it has it's roof covering rolled back and sitting up on the centre-line of the roof. There appears to be a light-coloured area inside what I take to be the roof opening, which is presumably the lighter coloured interior edge of the opening: I hadn't thought of an area like that being painted such a light colour - was that usual?

 

I believe the interior woodwork of vans, like opens, was left unpainted.

  

52 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

I'd also noted that some of the sheet rolls in the right-hand wagon (the one in front of that mystery van you're asking about, with which I cannot help) are lying on their sides in contravention of what we believe to be the fairly strict rules, but having fully loaded the wagon I'm guessing they bent the rules a little and popped the last few rolls lying flat on top? Rules like that get bent all the time these days so I'm sure things were similar then.

I know from historical musical research that turning up books of rules from the past about how things were meant to be done doesn't necessarily mean they were done that way, at any rate all the time - please forgive me if I'm teaching anyone to suck eggs with that comment.

 

It is, I think, generally the case that a rule exists because the forbidden practice was being indulged in. If the rule has to be repeated insistently, that proves the thing forbidden was being done all the time.

 

52 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Also, almost all the vehicles in the left-hand line of the two lines out in the open are LNER (with the noted exception of the LMS one being unloaded and possibly a GW one fifth from the far end of the line) but almost all the wagons under cover in the goods shed are non-LNER as far as I can distinguish: might that view have been intentional, as you mention this being an official LNER photo?

 

I doubt that the official photographer had quite the dictatorial powers of a wedding photographer.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Compound2632

[jwealleans]

38 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

almost all the vehicles in the left-hand line of the two lines out in the open are LNER (with the noted exception of the LMS one being unloaded and possibly a GW one fifth from the far end of the line) but almost all the wagons under cover in the goods shed are non-LNER as far as I can distinguish: might that view have been intentional, as you mention this being an official LNER photo?

 

I'd hazard that's more to do with the points of origin of the inbound workings.

 

[jwealleans]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

LNWR vans had solid timber sliding hatches

 

Which is why the runners on those vans went over the whole width of the roof but those on NER (and L & Y, among others) vehicles stop at the centreline.

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

I think that is NBR.  I've not seen that combination of timber and steel end posts on any other vehicle.

 

24 minutes ago, 41516 said:

Horizontal end planks, so D38B or later. Seems quite narrow so perhaps the 7'11" max width D38B and not the later 8'5" width vans?

 

Having looked in my two (!*) NBR wagon books, I see this now. What isn't so apparent in the photo is that the centre strap is a T-section. 

 

*J. Hooper, Wagons on the LNER No. 1: North British (Irwell Press, 1991) and P. Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol. 3: Scottish Area (Wild Swan, 2009). Are there any others?

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

I'd hazard that's more to do with the points of origin of the inbound workings.

 

Pooling. They could in principle have made their most recent journey from any starting point.

[jwealleans]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

Are there any others?

 

There's one published by the Line society but I can't recall the details.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, jwealleans said:

There's one published by the Line society but I can't recall the details.

 

Checking the NBRSG website publications listing:

https://www.nbrstudygroup.co.uk/sales/pdfs/price_list_dec_2022.pdf

G.W.M. Sewell, NBR Wagons – Some Design Aspects (A4, 142 pages with 90 drawings by the author).

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

The same construction was used on L&Y vans* but LNWR vans had solid timber sliding hatches. A good while back I made a Geen L&Y D3 van using the technique Jonathan describes.

 

*Also, I think, in Ireland, where vans with this sort of roof hatch of GS&W and GN origin lasted into "modern" times.

And another one.  The Furness also had roof door vans (two types, one longer than the other but both rated to 10 tons) which like the LNWR ones had runners across the roof with a sliding hatch.  The runners are clear to see and the look of the roof when viewed from the "far" side has a marked horizontal line where the end of the sliding roof section is sitting above the fixed - and looks very different to the lath-and-canvas style of the NER for example. 

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

 

On the contrary, I think it is more or less closed: the laths, I think would have to be substantial enough to resist rough handling and possibly even things landing on the roof, so something like the 2" x 1" roofing laths used today.    Even with the sheet pulled closed they'd show.   Ifyou look back on my workbench thread I made one using 20 x 10 thou Evergreen strip and tissue paper sprayed black.   You can see what you think, but I liked it.

 

Edit - found it.  NBR van of similar type as discussed as a bonus.

 

Excellent - I like that too, wish I'd spotted that before doing mine! I remember wondering what was under the top layer to hold it up...!

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I believe the interior woodwork of vans, like opens, was left unpainted.

 

Oh - I hadn't thought of it being bare wood: it looks quite light-coloured but it could be quite a new van, or an odd trick of the light. Interesting shot nonetheless; I've not seen many photos of these roof loading vans at all and I'm sure I've not seen another one like that, with the rolled open top viewed end-on. 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

It is, I think, generally the case that a rule exists because the forbidden practice was being indulged in. If the rule has to be repeated insistently, that proves the thing forbidden was being done all the time.

Agreed, nice point.

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I doubt that the official photographer had quite the dictatorial powers of a wedding photographer.

No indeed, I'm sure not! Apologies if I wasn't clear: I didn't mean that the photographer might have arranged for the rolling stock to be re-arranged to fly the LNER flag, I meant rather that he might have chosen a moment when their stock was most  prominently displayed. Or, perhaps more likely, he took a series of shots through the day and the LNER publicity department selected those which favoured the home team?

[Compound2632]

Noah's Ark?

 

[Chas Levin]

53 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Noah's Ark?

 

Or possibly a wagon load, designed to produce an interesting and suitably dipped shape under sheeting?

[41516]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Noah's Ark?

 

It resembles my normal output when given a new sheet of plasticard/brass with a square and attempt to cut out a regular shape....

Edited February 27, 2023 by 41516

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Chas Levin said:

Or possibly a wagon load, designed to produce an interesting and suitably dipped shape under sheeting?

 

 

It stands about 11 ft above rail at the edges; the Midland loading gauge limit was 10' 9" at 4' 6" from centre of rails, so as this is only 3' 9", it should clear comfortably. I think I will add a bit more height at the centre, as there's 2' 6" to spare and it will hump up the sheets a bit more, avoiding that dip.

 

 

Midland loading gauge, 4 May 1887 [embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 77-12456].

[magmouse]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I think I will add a bit more height at the centre

A roll of carpet? Possibly containing Cleopatra, as per Carry on Cleo….

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, magmouse said:

A roll of carpet? Possibly containing Cleopatra, as per Carry on Cleo….

 

I hope she's got a ticket.

[magmouse]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I hope she's got a ticket.

I’m not sure the list of goods tariffs include “Egyptian Queens Wrapped in Best Persian Floor-covering”. Did MR goods agents have authority to set a tariff not listed?

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, magmouse said:

I’m not sure the list of goods tariffs include “Egyptian Queens Wrapped in Best Persian Floor-covering”. Did MR goods agents have authority to set a tariff not listed?

 

That would be a question for the Goods Managers' Conference.

 

These days it would fall foul of legislation on people trafficking to say nothing of abetting illegal immigration.  

 

As I recall, though, delivery to the customer was rather spectacular.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Compound2632

[kitpw]

34 minutes ago, magmouse said:

“Egyptian Queens Wrapped in Best Persian Floor-covering”

...folded, not rolled, I hope...

 

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, kitpw said:

...folded, not rolled, I hope...

 

Not according to Gérôme (whose painting is probably not suitable for reproduction here) and Cecil B. DeMille. But I gather this all goes back to an 18th century mistranslation of Plutarch's Lives and Cleopatra had herself delivered to Caesar in something more akin to a duffle bag.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Coal comparison:

 

 

Clockwise, from top left:

• Diamond: Peco Scene Real Coal medium grade
• LNW D53: Peco Scene Real Coal coarse grade
• Pelsall: Geoscenics Coal O Wagon Load
• MR D299: Geoscenics Coal O Tender Load

With the latter, the dilute PVA is still drying, hence the wet look.

 

The Coal O Tender Load is the best approach to the Really Big Lumps one sees in many 19th century photos, though one can see examples of various grades. it seems that with coal one has the opposite problem as with ballast: one has to go up a scale, rather than down a scale, to find material that is suitable for the pre-grouping, pre-Great War scene.

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

the Really Big Lumps one sees in many 19th century photos

 

Yes, it really is remarkable how large the largest size of coal was - especially for loco coal, it seems. I have just posted my GWR N13 loco coal wagon build, featuring Really Big Lumps™.

 

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

A little diversion to the question of South Wales spelter and tinplate traffic, that we've touched on a number of times. The Midland's lease of the Swansea Vale Railway took effect in September 1874, having been authorised by Act of Parliament the previous July. This was the outcome of getting on for five years of negotiation; the terms of the lease had been agreed in August 1872. The Locomotive Department was quick off the mark to address the line's urgent need for modern motive power, with the requirement for ten tank engines having been identified several months before Johnson took the reigns; it seems that design work had already begun under the direction of the senior officers of the department, Matthew Kirtley being by this time in his final illness. The first of the Neilson batch of 1102 Class 0-6-0Ts were delivered in November 1874.

 

Equally, the Traffic Committee had been quick to assess the line's requirements. Minute 18,171 of 3 December 1872 records that "Particulars of the quantity of tin plate traffic sent from the Welsh District were submitted, and it was explained that the other Companies used Covered Wagons for its conveyance, the Senders refusing to load in others, and that it was desirable the company should be in a position to supply a similar class of Wagon." It was resolved to obtain 300 covered wagons. The Locomotive Committee was responsible for the tendering process; the tender of The Railway Carriage Co. (better known by its later name of Oldbury) was accepted on 4 February 1873. In June 1874 the Carriage & Wagon Committee was hearing that this order had only just been completed, six months behind schedule - the same firm had been ten months late with an order for 1,000 goods wagons. The Midland's reported stock of covered goods wagons increased from 572 at 31 June 1873 to 888 at 31 June 1874, so this provision for the Swansea Vale tinplate traffic increased the company's stock of such vehicles by over 50%.

 

But what did these wagons look like? They pre-date Clayton's classic sliding door vans, the earliest of which date from 1880. Kirtley-era covered goods vans are something of a mystery. What does seem clear, though, is that they were of 6 ton capacity. In February 1885, Clayton submitted a return of the carrying capacity of Midland goods stock at 31 December 1884 to the Carriage & Wagon Committee, reporting 821 6 ton and 198 8 ton covered goods wagons. At this date only two lots of Clayton's 8 ton vans had been raised, lot 48 of July 1880 for 50 and lot 116 of May 1884 for 210, which were presumably still being delivered. By 31 December 1894 there were no 6 ton vans in stock and the total of 8 ton vans can be fully accounted for by lots raised since 1880.

[jamie92208]

Out of interest what form would the tinplate be in, coils or sheets.

 

Jamie